Nudity

[cosmo bozo]

Yep, it's the old "I need it realistic, they would be naked after I took their full suits of plate armour and stuffed them discreetly in my pocket" that gets me..

That said, I'm not against them putting nudity in at all, It's just not a big deal.

 

[Tony]

Well, the main arguments against nudity have been "it's immature" and "ratings will be affected".

Elric made a valid point that nudity by itself is not immature. A player can choose to be immature in regard to many things, not just nudity. Bare Mettle should not make design choices based upon whether or not a player will choose to do silly things. Should they disable running because a player could be immature and just run circles around NPCs in the game?

As far as ratings go there are many games which have nudity and people have suggested many good solutions. Add in an option to remove nudity for those it might offend in the game options. As far as I know Bare Mettle will be distributing the game via their own site so I'm not sure if the game will even be rated at all.

In the end I think Bare Mettle should simply make the game they want to make. Currently they have designed the game with nudity and they have done it in a sensible and tasteful manner. It is not there to prove anything or to put on a façade of "being mature".

 

[malfunction]

I'm not sure I've made this clear enough but the ratings WILL be affected by having the OPTION of having nudity. If the ASSETS for nudity are in the game and aren't even used, it can bump up the rating too.

And you are underplaying the effect ratings can have on the sales of a game. As I said earlier, if you want to do anything other than online distribution, ratings will be important. You have to pay much more at conventions to get a booth for an unrated game. Steam will require an age gate for unrated games.

Of course, ERSB ratings are entirely optional and it's up to the developers if they want to go down that route, but a lot of you seem to be assuming that they'll only ever distribute via their own website. We really need an official developer response on how they plan to distribute to settle this, but they probably haven't decided entirely on this yet.

Anyway, here's a picture to help demonstrate the (slightly exaggerated) potential costs and benefits of including nudity:

 

[Tony]

@malfunction Thanks, that made me laugh . None of the other games I've played which had nudity went under because of it. In fact, even the controversial ones made more money from the extra free publicity it gave them (sales spiked after the media attention).

Games that include nudity can be tweaked to be sold in countries which don't allow it. The Witcher 2 is an example of this. So even if the game started out as online distribution only, it can be tweaked at a later date (when they decide to have it rated) to make necessary accommodations to ensure the ratings are where they want them to be.

The devs have talked a bit about how they are going to distribute the game and, if my memory serves, at first it will only be online distribution plus the limited amount of hard copies for the collector's edition.

 

[malfunction]

@Tony That's a very good point and I hadn't considered that.

Well in that case, if the developers are willing to put the effort in, I don't see any reason to not include the option of nudity as long as it's done well and not sexualized too much.

 

[ruminator]

When I think about nudity in games I think about Daggerfall. It wasn't a big deal, and it wasn't particularly obvious. It also was pretty nonsexual in its portrayal. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was tasteful, but it wasn't a big deal. That's the way to do it.

However, I could care less whether it makes it into the game. I would rather see children than nudity (and definitely not children AND nudity!) just for the sake of a compelling and convincing game world. I think the illusion of a living world suffers more from lack of children than nudity.

 

[Tony]

Well, if children were added they would abide by the same rules as everything else. Bare Mettle doesn't believe in adding artificial restrictions. This means not only would it be possible to see naked children but you'd also be able to kill children. IMO this would lead to a much bigger controversy than nudity ever would.

 

[lvk]

@Tony I believe they weren't planning to ever add in children for that reason, because they'd have to impose a bunch of restrictions that feel really unnatural and disruptive to the game.

 

[Tony]

@Tony I believe they weren't planning to ever add in children for that reason, because they'd have to impose a bunch of restrictions that feel really unnatural and disruptive to the game.

Yes, I remember the previous discussion with the devs about this topic . I was trying to explain to ruminator why they would not be in the game.

 

[mcmanusaur]

@mcmanusaur, I can't help but feel that, like myself, you liked Skyrim and expected great things out of the modding community and were met with a whole lot of disappointment. I may well be wrong, but if I were to share your opinion, it would have been a result of a large part of Skyrim's modding community.

Skyrim is just one example out of the larger trend, but a marked example at that.

 

[mcmanusaur]

Well, if children were added they would abide by the same rules as everything else. Bare Mettle doesn't believe in adding artificial restrictions. This means not only would it be possible to see naked children but you'd also be able to kill children. IMO this would lead to a much bigger controversy than nudity ever would.

So then instead of keeping nudity out of the game, we keep children out of the game? Seems legit, real legit... If this decision was really part of the design process for Sui Generis, I have to say that is very discouraging to hear. The idea that not letting the player undress children feels more unnatural and disruptive than not having any children in the game is absolutely insane.

 

[mcmanusaur]

3. It would give immature people another way to vent sexual frustration without bothering anyone

I'm not a professional game designer, but if I ever end up becoming one I would be extremely insulted if this is what people used my game for, and thus I wouldn't give them that option, but that's just me.

 

[Tony]

So then instead of keeping nudity out of the game, we keep children out of the game? Seems legit, real legit...

You don't seem to agree with a lot of Bare Mettle's design choices. I suppose everyone has their own opinions and we'll just have to agree to disagree. We're getting awfully close to beating a dead bush at this point .

 

[mcmanusaur]

You don't seem to agree with a lot of Bare Mettle's design choices. I suppose everyone has their own opinions and we'll just have to agree to disagree. We're getting awfully close to beating a dead bush at this point .

By a lot, you mean what... one or two? Honestly I don't even know the majority of their design decisions, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. But please, do humor me by explaining how not letting players undress children is more immersion-breaking than not having children at all. I would really like an explanation for that, as it sounds like just about the most inane design decision I've ever heard... Surely there must be more to it.

Also, I just realized that your avatar is... what, a character peeing? Wow, that really explains a whole lot.

 

[Tony]

By a lot, you mean what... one or two? Honestly I don't even know the majority of their design decisions, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. But please, do humor me by explaining how not letting players undress children is more immersion-breaking than not having children at all. I would really like an explanation for that, as it sounds like just about the most inane design decision I've ever heard... Surely there must be more to it.

Also, I just realized that your avatar is... what, a character peeing? Wow, that really explains a whole lot.

My avatar is a screenshot I took from The Witcher 2, one of my favorite games. There is a story behind it and to those who know it it makes sense

I'm sure if you'd like to actually learn more about why the devs decided to not add children in the game you could use the search button and find previous discussions about it. I would link you to some myself but alas I must get ready for work and I'm out of time.

 

[malfunction]

Malfunction to the rescue!

http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/message-in-plot.174/#post-2489


http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/grand-list-of-dev-quotes-on-features.195/page-2#post-3334

 

[lvk]

Keeping children out of the game has nothing to do with nudity. Sui Generis is very combat-oriented, and having characters walk around that abide by a completely different set of rules is disruptive, especially in a game where combat is important. The other option is making kids as vulnerable as anyone else, which you really don't want as a game developer trying to sell a game.

Yes, it might 'break immersion', but not as much as those kids in World of Warcraft that walked around with no change in demeanor while their city was raided, as an example. This is a whole lot more important in Sui Generis, where all of your actions have consequences.

 

[Tony]

I'd just like to give a friendly reminder to everyone that personal attacks are not necessary. If people feel strongly about something and cannot agree then simply agree to disagree and move on. So far this forum has been a civil place and I'd like for it to remain so. Thanks!

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

I'm not a professional game designer, but if I ever end up becoming one I would be extremely insulted if this is what people used my game for, and thus I wouldn't give them that option, but that's just me.

I'm sorry to give you the wake-up call, but people desperate enough will ALWAYS find a way.

Rule #34 is always applicable. Always.

You cannot dictate what people do with your game.

You can only make sure it's as enjoyable as possible, and truly represents the vision you had when you started it's development.

Extremely insulted? Why? There are always a sad and poor few that end up using a game to vent that way. But they don't shove it into people's faces, they don't bother anyone with it, so as game developer, you wouldn't even know that "it" happened. Why even worry about that?

I'd much rather feel honoured and happy due to 99% of my customers, which immensely enjoy the game the way it's meant to be played. Yes, the creator of Bioshock Infinite was offended to find porn of his female lead character on the net. I'm sorry, but you're releasing a game into the wild, rugged and perverted lands of the internet. If you didn't see that coming, you need to do a reality check.

Be glad about happy customers, and just don't think about what sad people might use your game for. It's going to happen, and you can't prevent that, not even by not putting any nudity in your game.

That being said, I agree with all of Tony's latest posts, and can't really add anything else.
Also getting tired of the topic, as it's entirely up to the devs, and they don't seem to be interested in discussing this, which is fine.

 

[BrecMadak]

I'm not a professional game designer, but if I ever end up becoming one I would be extremely insulted if this is what people used my game for, and thus I wouldn't give them that option, but that's just me.

But hopefully you are not the game designer. And yea, it's just you and 'your' thoughts. So if you ever gonna feel X way, then feel free to live on your own, forget about others. It make no sense even mentioning 'others', since its your very own feelings and not others.

Therefore you can't tell anyone how to feel or think. How about keeping them for yourself and stop keeping this endless debate which has no practical use

People complain about not having nudity because "it's the player's intent that makes it bad"... so well, what's your intent in wanting nudity in the game anyway? What do you intend to do nude? Probably nothing worth encouraging. Glad we've settled that, and by the way I'm generally a liberal person (before we start making assumptions). If Bare Mettle put nudity in the game I'm not going to complain, but I think the fact that there are so many people who go out of their way to request that nudity is included is very telling, since there is ostensibly no practical reason for it to be included with regard to the playing of the game.

But you do, and in a very oppressive and dominant way which stands out in the whole thread. And you said that you are not gonna complain about nudity, but even at this stage, you never avoid striving and even blandish by going triple posting, for the sake of not having it in the game, which already shows you are contradicting yourself. Just breath at some points.

Final line is developers'.