Thoughts and Ideas General

BrecMadak

Insider
While we are at that SG having to take precautions and getting ready for the bothersome abusers, that always exist in every kind of game, will there also be in SG regardless how hard you try inevitably.

So i have to ask in here to devs;
●Do you have plans for kreating anti-cheat system ? If yes, please tell us more about it. If no, how do you think to handle this problematic situation, since it is a serious topic for the longevity of SG.
● If ever anti-cheat system is implemented, no another person should be in charge to run a server out of your authorization of corpse. Also the only in-game files could be retrieved via those server(s) So ever considered protective system like this, what do you think about taking measures against macroing, multiboxing and such abuses ?

Thanks for answers.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
This is a huge topic and one of the main reasons why we're not promising much yet in terms of online play. Compared to the simple combat mechanics of MMOs the physics based combat in SG requires a massive amount of processing power. Also the complex physics require the lowest possible latency. These two things alone make a true client/server model impossible.

There are many ways people could potentially cheat and each one requires a solution. Our basic idea is that we would offer persistent characters on our servers but players would need to participate in peer to peer games with reciprocal mediation and perhaps a small amount from the servers. We would probably also introduce severe penalties for people found cheating (this will not be free to play). Similarly we imagined competitive arena combats between players where spectating players also act as mediators.

To clarify by "not free to play" I mean you must purchase a copy of the game. We might introduce a very reasonable subscription fee (for these services alone) if we need to cover costs. Either way this is, for the time being, intended as a single player / LAN game.
 

Chedburn

Insider
This is a huge topic and one of the main reasons why we're not promising much yet in terms of online play. Compared to the simple combat mechanics of MMOs the physics based combat in SG requires a massive amount of processing power. Also the complex physics require the lowest possible latency. These two things alone make a true client/server model impossible.

There are many ways people could potentially cheat and each one requires a solution. Our basic idea is that we would offer persistent characters on our servers but players would need to participate in peer to peer games with reciprocal mediation and perhaps a small amount from the servers. We would probably also introduce severe penalties for people found cheating (this will not be free to play). Similarly we imagined competitive arena combats between players where spectating players also act as mediators.

To clarify by "not free to play" I mean you must purchase a copy of the game. We might introduce a very reasonable subscription fee (for these services alone) if we need to cover costs. Either way this is, for the time being, intended as a single player / LAN game.
I think, if you haven't completely been turned off, the mechanics are certainly possible (although challenging). Please have a look at Darkfall online. This is a massively multilayer RPG capable of having 200 vs 200 fights in full FPS fashion with unnoticeable lag, if they're able to do it I think it'd certainly be possible on SG. I would have thought this step would be preferred by Bare Mettle as this engine is your baby, I'm sure you'd want it to last ten or even fifteen years as an MMO rather than having a 2-3 month lifespan after release. There are many benefits:

- Constant monthly income from subscriptions
- A huge cult following created, which isn't possible with single player RPGs
- Cheat prevention, with everything being stored on your servers it makes it infinitely easier to monitor and protect
- Better gameplay, clans, territory, insane and epic battles (Can you imagine how good even a 10 vs 10 battle with this engine would be?)
- The ability to constantly progress and update the game and engine due to monthly payments. Not a quick single purchase and then the game dies out.

Hell, you could release the single player game, and then create the MMO version as an extension (which slowly becomes the primary feature).

Otherwise, if I still haven't convinced you... Saving the character data on your servers would be a huge amount better than allowing people to modify characters and use cheats clientside. Hell, I run an online game with 25,000 daily players all stored server side and this data is changed and stored live, updated and selected thousands of times per second. A quick select / update at the start / end of a session would be very simple, quick, and use up less than a GB of space for 1 million players depending on how much data you store for them. The only downside is the inability to play the game if the servers are down (or if the user isn't connected to the internet, but let's be honest this wouldn't be a problem). The huge, massive advantage is that you can confirm that the user owns the game before allowing them to play, completely eliminating piracy if it's done right.

This is what really frustrated me with borderlands ... I spend weeks levelling up, and then someone joins my game who simply cheated to the the highest level and duped weapons with 9999 damage. If it's possible for anyone to cheat or advance in any way other than normal, even if it isn't multiplayer - this completely ruins the experience for me personally. Simply knowing that others are using cheats to advance themselves spoils it.

I hope this helps.
 
- A huge cult following created, which isn't possible with single player RPGs
Last month was Skyrim's 1 year release anniversary. It still has a huge following. Their are countless modders and Youtube commentators still playing it and keeping it alive. Some form of multiplayer would increase the longevity of SG, but I think the devs should go about it in their own way.
 

Tony

Insider
I think, if you haven't completely been turned off, the mechanics are certainly possible (although challenging). Please have a look at Darkfall online. This is a massively multilayer RPG capable of having 200 vs 200 fights in full FPS fashion with unnoticeable lag, if they're able to do it I think it'd certainly be possible on SG.
Darkfall did not have physics based combat. It is much easier to have latency accounted for in Darkfall than a game like Sui Generis, where even a few milliseconds delay would make combat very awkward. Take that fight with Porky. You'd see Porky swing at the air and never make contact with you, but you'd still end up being knocked to the ground due to sever/client latency. As Madoc said, the physics based combat in Sui Generis is heavily CPU dependant. Combat in Darkfall is not.

The only downside is the inability to play the game if the servers are down (or if the user isn't connected to the internet, but let's be honest this wouldn't be a problem). The huge, massive advantage is that you can confirm that the user owns the game before allowing them to play, completely eliminating piracy if it's done right.
And if you are talking about making Sui Generis have DRM that makes it impossible to play even in single player mode without an internet connection... this would be horrible :eek: This goes completely against their policy of no DRM.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
200 vs 200 people in a battle is completely impossible with these physics, the physics require thousands of times more processing than characters using precanned animations. This isn't just an alternative animation system, it's physics, lots of physics. A single apple would require more processing power and bandwidth than a character in many MMOs.

As I said earlier characters would be stored on our servers. Online play with client side characters is just plain silly in our opinion. Unfortunately there are many other ways to cheat in online games, especially action games with even the simplest physics interactions.

We don't want to introduce subscription fees but we also may not be able to afford free hosting for a large player base. We likely won't have huge resources, we won't be making money from micro-transactions or real money auction houses. If we can avoid it we'll provide the services free of charge but if it's not sustainable we may ask people who want to use online services to pay a small fee. This will likely be so small that you can just pay for 6 months or a year without worrying about the cost. It's quite possible that game sales or major expansions negate the need for any such fees. Also, online services would be completely optional.

Either way this is ultimately irrelevant at this point, it's merely speculation. Right now we don't have the resources to even consider online play as a reality. For the forseeable future we can limit ourselves to the single player / LAN aspects of this game.
 

Algea

Insider
I hate D3 always online DRM with fiery passion. I can't stress enough how irritable their fucking weekly maintenance has become with time. I don't want to be dependent not only on my Internet provider but on servers' availability just to play a game I have already bought. It's not fighting piracy it's being disrespectful towards those people who actually paid their money to play a game. I'll never buy a game that has always online DRM. The only thing I agree with is Steam, because it's convenient and I actually can launch titles I bought there without Internet connection. I haven't bought any EA titles since they launched their Origin service. I have bought only one Ubisoft title (Heroes 6 if I'm not mistaken) and I launched it only once, because I didn't know about its DRM at the time. I know I'm with the minority but I really don't want to suffer because publishers are afraid of piracy.

I won't come to these games' forums and I won't preach about their DRMs being disrespectful towards buyers; I just won't buy these games. But from what I've gathered there won't be any DRM involved for those of us who pre-ordered (if I may say so) Sui Generis in its early stages. I don't know about the future though.

I'm sorry for being too foul-mouthed about this but it's been a sore subject for me for quite some time.
 

Tony

Insider
@Algea:

I wouldn't be too worried about Sui Generis and DRM. They seem to have a similar philosophy regarding DRM as CDPR (the developers behind The Witcher games). They said they will fight DRM by offering a high quality product that people are willing to pay for. There are very few developers who treat their fans with such high respect and I applaud Bare Mettle for this approach. I think if they stick to this approach they will earn many loyal, life-long supporters :)
 

Chedburn

Insider
200 vs 200 people in a battle is completely impossible with these physics, the physics require thousands of times more processing than characters using precanned animations. This isn't just an alternative animation system, it's physics, lots of physics. A single apple would require more processing power and bandwidth than a character in many MMOs.

As I said earlier characters would be stored on our servers. Online play with client side characters is just plain silly in our opinion. Unfortunately there are many other ways to cheat in online games, especially action games with even the simplest physics interactions.

We don't want to introduce subscription fees but we also may not be able to afford free hosting for a large player base. We likely won't have huge resources, we won't be making money from micro-transactions or real money auction houses. If we can avoid it we'll provide the services free of charge but if it's not sustainable we may ask people who want to use online services to pay a small fee. This will likely be so small that you can just pay for 6 months or a year without worrying about the cost. It's quite possible that game sales or major expansions negate the need for any such fees. Also, online services would be completely optional.

Either way this is ultimately irrelevant at this point, it's merely speculation. Right now we don't have the resources to even consider online play as a reality. For the forseeable future we can limit ourselves to the single player / LAN aspects of this game.
I didn't forget about the mechanics, and I understand how each swing is at a different angle every time, and the effects completely depend on where you hit and where the enemy is at that exact millisecond. But online multiplayer is mentioned so I thought it would be possible; As player hosted lobby's will always have a higher ping / latency than dedicated servers, I'm not sure what the issue would be if that's possible.

I assumed there would be methods to avoid these issues, for example...
You say "A single apple would require more processing power and bandwidth". But this would be resolved by having the apple fall independently on each client, or passing a single (or a few) variables which would state where the apple would fall client side - Instead of sending all data directly. I.e. Physics created client side based on variables, only the variables are sent. Similar methods would be used in combat, but I understand it'd be impossible to achieve perfection. I'm also obviously no expert.

I believe Diablo had to have DRM (and connection to their servers) because cheating was not an option. They had an online auction house with RMT so it could not be avoided. Although I dislike DRM (connection to their servers), I understand its importance for hardcore gamers, and I believe the positive outweighs the negative. I personally have a persistent internet connection, and server downtime can be avoided if stable.

Also I should mention - It wouldn't really be DRM. It just makes sense that if you're storing the character server side, you'd check to see that they actually bought the game. Having people pirate the game and then... using your servers to host the characters really takes the piss.
 

Algea

Insider
@Tony:

Besides I think that the more elaborate DRM is the more respect those who are able to crack it will have. So it's quite an incentive (in my opinion of course). In the end the only working DRMs are those that have something to do with multiplayer (Battlefield 3/Diablo 3 for example, with multiplayer being the main source of attraction). Everything else is going to be cracked at some point (and honestly speaking rather sooner than later). So pirates enjoy their DRM-free games while legitimate customers suffer from it. That's quite ridiculous if you ask me.
 

Tony

Insider
Also I should mention - It wouldn't really be DRM. It just makes sense that if you're storing the character server side, you'd check to see that they actually bought the game. Having people pirate the game and then... using your servers to host the characters really takes the piss.
I have no problem with requiring an internet connection to play in multiplayer mode since this is a given. But if the game requires an active internet connection before you can play single player then this is definitely DRM.

So pirates enjoy their DRM-free games while legitimate customers suffer from it. That's quite ridiculous if you ask me.
This is definitely true. DRM doesn't stop pirates, only hinders people who pay for the game. Giving people incentive to want to buy your game is a much more effective method.
 

Algea

Insider
I think showing the community that it is valued is the best way to go about it. Take Torchlight 2 developers - great people and very nice to talk to and to discuss things over. To pirate (read - steal, yes, that's my opinion anyway) from them is like to steal from friends, really disgusting.

But maybe it's just me being overly idealistic.:)
 
I think showing the community that it is valued is the best way to go about it. Take Torchlight 2 developers - great people and very nice to talk to and to discuss things over. To pirate (read - steal, yes, that's my opinion anyway) from them is like to steal from friends, really disgusting.

But maybe it's just me being overly idealistic.:)
It's only stealing if the devs lose anything.

Honestly the best way to combat scurvy dogs like I is to simply not care. I would be more inclined to torrent a game if the devs put tons of red tape on it than if the dev didn't, and maybe added something in for pirates.

Like the Starfarer indie I pirated once, great game. There would be little messages about events in the bottom left corner, one of them went "it is quite possible we know you have a pirated copy, let the paranoia begin!" It did not stop me from pirating it, but I found it so humorous and was so happy the devs weren't flipping over it that I went and bought two copies for a friend and I.
 

Algea

Insider
@The Hedge Knight

I know that copying something doesn't mean stealing, and I don't believe in publishers' and copyright lawyers' songs about lost profits or some shit like that. It's just when I love developers, when those developers are indie - I can't help myself. They need all the money they can get.

ADD: I mean when it's COD I'm like 'Pffft no big deal' but when it's Torchlight 2 it's 'FUUUUUU!':D Double standards, that's right.
 

Tony

Insider
@The Hedge Knight

I know that copying something doesn't mean stealing, and I don't believe in publishers' and copyright lawyers' songs about lost profits or some shit like that. It's just when I love developers, when those developers are indie - I can't help myself. They need all the money they can get.

ADD: I mean when it's COD I'm like 'Pffft no big deal' but when it's Torchlight 2 it's 'FUUUUUU!':D Double standards, that's right.
Exactly. It's pretty low to not support indie developers, especially if they're attempting to add creativity and innovation to games. When you support indie devs you're fighting the generic, stale games that publishers love to promote. By pirating these creative games you're essentially saying you do not wish for any more to be made.
 

Algea

Insider
When you support indie devs you're fighting the generic, stale games that publishers love to promote.
I think everybody would be happier if they spend their enormous promotional budgets on development and innovations in gameplay. Then at least we won't have this godawful Mass Effect 3 with its small multiplayer-like maps in singleplayer, gaping plotholes and impotent romances (Dragon Ages' romances were boring and unrealistic too). I don't know who was the writer but they made me cringe and I love romances in games. Only Garrus (as a companion, his romance was as awful as any other) was as awesome as always with his impeccable voice-acting. Maybe it was better for men but for me all romances were just meh. But I digress.
 

MrIdontKnow

Insider
We all know that pirating is wrong, but yet everyone does it, not just talking about Music, Games and Films.

I love watching movings, but have any of you seen movies nowadays, there's a four letter word for them and the words not good. I think everything should have trails, but then I do believe if you play it or really love it, you should purchase it.
 
Top

Home|Games|Media|Store|Account|Forums|Contact




© Copyright 2019 Bare Mettle Entertainment Ltd. All rights reserved.