[Suggestion] Archery Mechanics

[Mikodzi]

Hi guys! I know that there was couple of topics regarding archery. But on this one I want to present my vision of archery mechanics that could be implemented into Exanima or SG. I really love Exanima, but almost in all games I role-play an archery character, so is it very important for me to get archery here as good as sword fighting is here already. All comments are welcome!

Archery

Uses standard fighting scheme with TAB button to toggle battle mode, left mouse button to draw a bow and right button to cancel action.


Basics

To fight with bow you need to equip bow, quiver and allocate arrows from inventory to quiver. Its mandatory that quiver have its own limited arrows slots and only arrows in that quiver can be fired.


Archery requirements

Power bar (optional) - acts like stamina bar, the longer you hold attack button - the more power it gets for the shot. Some types of armour requires full power and special arrows to be penetrated. Or there could be a small chance to hit vulnerable spot. Speed of which power bar is restored depends on current character actions, e.g. when character is running, power is being restored slower than usual.

Power bar addition mechanics - when drawing a bow, there will be indicator on power bar which will display maximum power that it can be drown for a single shot (depends on bow, character skills). If player overdraws power and shoots, arrow will be not stable, causing less penetration damage and almost random aim (forget about precise targeting). Of course player can cancel that action and start drawing again.

Bows - they have different stats: power that can be drawn (some bows will have ability to draw half of power or even more), speed of power usage (power can be drawn faster), penetration distance.

Quiver - they will have two stats: arrow slots available and quiver location. Every quiver will have it maximum arrow capacity. Quiver location should relate to speed of reloading, for example quiver on chest will reduce reloading speed compared to quiver on back. Quiver is not required for using the bow, character can equip arrows into hand, but its amount is greatly reduced compared to quiver.

Arrows - main stats: weight (range), penetration ability.


Aiming

Two phases of aiming:

1. Passive aiming - occurs when player is in battle mode, but haven't drawn a bow yet. By default, aiming cursor will look like wide oval which will show current shooting accuracy range (arrow could be shoot anywhere within that oval). Aiming oval spread will increase or decrease when player moves aim further or closer to character (distance penalty). There will be additional skill that decreases starting aim accuracy.
2. Active aiming - phase when player starts drawing a bow and power. To get maximum accuracy (oval may become small circle) player needs some defined time (in seconds) and that time depends on skills and bow type. Why it is important - it will not allow not skilled player to have precise shoots. This mechanics will look like: when not skilled player starts drawing a bow and waits for maximum accuracy, he'll eventually pass the power bar limits and shoot will be messed up. It happens because time for most precise shoot is longer that time needed to draw maximum power. Of course it can also be bypassed by shooting on closer range, as I mentioned already distance will increases or decrease time for aiming.

Long range combat awareness

Enemies should change their behaviour in case of ranged battle. For example: skeletons may use shield to cover themselves and quickly approach the player. NPCs without shield may run away and wait for player in tight spot.


Archery physics

The should be calculations to tell us if the armour could be penetrated with that used power, arrow type and angle. There will be only two types of results upon hitting: penetrated or deflected. If arrow penetrates the armour (chain, plate) it could not be recovered, you can collect that arrow again only from leather, fabric or naked body. Also it could be recovered when arrow was deflected.


Summary

All mechanics stated above should make archery challenging and not overpowered type. Player with bow could not become glass canon due to power bar restrictions and quiver capacity limit. Also it would be not easy to recover arrows if player shoots at heavy armour guys. To maintain entire game difficulty, archery would also be almost useless without proper skills and trainings.


To make things ever harder - all HUD options like Aiming oval and Power bar could be hidden.
@Madoc is very welcomed in this thread

 

[Mikodzi]

There also could be separate thread on Long Range Awareness. I wanted to add that some clever NPCs could even use objects to defend themselves from arrows or even turn table on a side and hide there. But it really sounds too complicated right now.

 

[Zoltan]

Hi Mikodzi,

I like your idea but I am afraid some part wouldn't work well with the game play.

I understand that just writing that and not explaining why I think so would be blatantly disrespectful, so I will try to explain my point of view for saying that.

Concerning draw mechanic :
With the top down isometric camera the view distance is short and reaction time during encounter as to be short too, having to get it right with a power gauge would be a difficult task to accomplish combined with the aiming.

If draw strength would have to be controlled by player and not by skill then I would better see with a timer on target that increase with time, let say as an example a circle divided in slices of pie, the longer you keep your mouse click fill parts of the pie and increase your draw power.

About Aiming Mechanic :
I would keep it simple and allow a sort of snap to the target (or part of)
Getting elevation right while placing furniture around is already a pain, so I can imagine the frustration of having the same issue aiming with ranged weapons.
Shooting other inanimate targets could be done the same way or not it depend of how improved the elevation issue is managed in the future.

About the effect on Armor :
I like that idea, but keep the calculation simple, remove angle and leave only the total penetration power (Arrow+Bow+Skill(+Draw Strength)) against the resistance of the armor.

About Readying the weapon :
I am still waiting for quick slots, Three would be perfect for me with Primary, Secondary, Ranged. if this was done I would simply define the time to ready a weapon by skill only.

AI against ranged
I really love the Idea that AI could adapt to a ranged weapon equipped, if there was a snap on target this could also trigger a response from AI to raise shield or seek cover asap.


To summarize also, I would like this is kept intuitive and fast, one example of game doing it right is "how to survive" in this one it is simple and effective. It could be improved to fit better the game-play speed as we are not roaming around killing hordes of enemies.

 

[Mikodzi]

Thank you Zoltan for such detailed answer, I see your point, but also have couple of remarks:

Concerning draw mechanic :
With the top down isometric camera the view distance is short and reaction time during encounter as to be short too, having to get it right with a power gauge would be a difficult task to accomplish combined with the aiming.

If draw strength would have to be controlled by player and not by skill then I would better see with a timer on target that increase with time, let say as an example a circle divided in slices of pie, the longer you keep your mouse click fill parts of the pie and increase your draw power.

Sure, I thought about top down view and maximum distance that character can observe. I can say that this mechanic does not slow you down, as far as I can imagine, you can still fire one or two aimed shots and couple of rushed ones before enemy reaches you.

Circle divided in slices of pie - it's good idea, but it lack throwbacks if counter reached it's goal and in that case we are also missing targeting cursor (current aim spread). I'd really love to show players that archery is really skill based and they should invest points into it to make it really deadly. So, that's why I thought about oval aim and power system. With circle it should be revamped.

About Aiming Mechanic :
I would keep it simple and allow a sort of snap to the target (or part of)
Getting elevation right while placing furniture around is already a pain, so I can imagine the frustration of having the same issue aiming with ranged weapons.
Shooting other inanimate targets could be done the same way or not it depend of how improved the elevation issue is managed in the future.

Oh, but that's the way I thought it should work too. No elevation aiming - it would be really hard to aim and shoot.
I wanted Archery to work as sword fighting works now - simple and efficient. You point, get aim that you wanted and you shoot.

About the effect on Armor :
I like that idea, but keep the calculation simple, remove angle and leave only the total penetration power (Arrow+Bow+Skill(+Draw Strength)) against the resistance of the armor.

I've also thought that angle could be too much, but imagine of that immersion when arrow deflects from wooden shield just because of an angle No pressure on it though.

About Readying the weapon :
I am still waiting for quick slots, Three would be perfect for me with Primary, Secondary, Ranged. if this was done I would simply define the time to ready a weapon by skill only.

Sure, there should be a way to quickly leave your bow and head up with sword.

 

[Zoltan]

You are welcome Mikodzi,

Sure, I thought about top down view and maximum distance that character can observe. I can say that this mechanic does not slow you down, as far as I can imagine, you can still fire one or two aimed shots and couple of rushed ones before enemy reaches you.

When an enemy decide to engage me it's often one of those two situations :
1 - I'm surprised : Just around the corner or after opening a door, the reaction time I have to act is short.
2 - I am the one engaging : I know where the target is and I can plan my attack on him

I suppose your example of taking multiple shots apply to the later situation, because if I imagine the first and that my character have to draw and aim i would already in close combat.

Circle divided in slices of pie - it's good idea, but it lack throwbacks if counter reached it's goal and in that case we are also missing targeting cursor (current aim spread). I'd really love to show players that archery is really skill based and they should invest points into it to make it really deadly. So, that's why I thought about oval aim and power system. With circle it should be revamped.

This part I am not sure I understand what you describe and I am unsure if I was clear also, maybe you can help me there, and I'll expand what I thought

So for the circle I imagined that would be very small near the aiming cursor, like on to or around, about the diffusion I imagined simply by game mechanic skill, not player skill.

I didn't understand that sentence "but it lack throwbacks if counter reached it's goal and in that case we are also missing targeting cursor (current aim spread)" English is not my native language so it is probably the reason.

I fail to imagine where would be located the oval and or the gauge that would represent the draw, a picture is better than a thousand words ?

Oh, but that's the way I thought it should work too. No elevation aiming - it would be really hard to aim and shoot.
I wanted Archery to work as sword fighting works now - simple and efficient. You point, get aim that you wanted and you shoot.

Yes but do you imagine the cursor snapping to target or something similar to laser red dot that you have to manually position?

I've also thought that angle could be too much, but imagine of that immersion when arrow deflects from wooden shield just because of an angle No pressure on it though.

I would love the idea too, but it could be simply a visual effect when projectile have not enough penetration power.

 

[Bobob]

I'm sure they will find a way to implement it in the game properly. It's highly likely they will at some point.

 

[Solinarius]

I would hope archery would not be limited to peasant bowman style. As in, slow and defenseless in melee. That is only kind of archery to be found in all of gaming, for the most part. Combat archery is what I'd like to see. Mobile, accurate, and deadly even at point-blank range.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I would hope archery would not be limited to peasant bowman style. As in, slow and defenseless in melee. That is only kind of archery to be found in all of gaming, for the most part. Combat archery is what I'd like to see. Mobile, accurate, and deadly even at point-blank range.

Because legolas is real right? Have you ever tried to pull a real bow, one that isnt made to stick arrows in trees but to punch through a man wearing armor, and then bury itself deep enough inside flesh to actually do damage.

There is a reason most games do it like that, cuz thats how it actually was in reality.

 

[turtleman155]

maybe the archer is secretly arnold schwarzenegger you dont know.

 

[Bobob]

I would hope archery would not be limited to peasant bowman style. As in, slow and defenseless in melee. That is only kind of archery to be found in all of gaming, for the most part. Combat archery is what I'd like to see. Mobile, accurate, and deadly even at point-blank range.

I don't want this kind of archery

 

[konggary]

I would hope archery would not be limited to peasant bowman style. As in, slow and defenseless in melee. That is only kind of archery to be found in all of gaming, for the most part. Combat archery is what I'd like to see. Mobile, accurate, and deadly even at point-blank range.

I thought the point of bows was to not be at point-blank range

 

[Solinarius]

Because legolas is real right? Have you ever tried to pull a real bow, one that isnt made to stick arrows in trees but to punch through a man wearing armor, and then bury itself deep enough inside flesh to actually do damage.

There is a reason most games do it like that, cuz thats how it actually was in reality.

I get that with longbows, strong bows, and war bows, but what bows outside the military warfare variety.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I get that with longbows, strong bows, and war bows, but what bows outside the military warfare variety.

You mean toy bows? or replica bows? Remember exanima is a medieval world they dont have some light flexible artificial material, no elf bows or ninja bows or carbon bows. Bows were not classified as military weapons or not, they were accessible to all because of their simplicity, stick and string for a ranged weapon. But a good bow would be strong enough to punch through at least flesh properly and not just stick to it, a Hunter needs to kill in 1 shot. Bows are not easy to pull to have a strong enough shot, not to talk about rapid fire with bows

 

[K.L.R.G.]

Bows are great and fascinating weapons and all (I do archery myself), but I don't see how they would make that much sense in the Exanima context. It might make sense in Sui Generis that is supposed to have a large open overworld.

In a dungeon like environment it doesn't make that much sense if it should have the same realism as the melee-system. You are to close to your enemys and arrows are relativly useless as soon as there are decently armored targets. And archery in combat is more of a numbers-game anyway. One arrow won't do that much, unless we talk of really heavy warbows ... And even those are rendered inefficent by plate-armour. And with the top-down perspective it would be nearly impossible to aim at weakspots (at the side of the visor for example). And longbows are very unhandy in close space too ... And not that fast either if you have to aim properly (which you have to if any shot counts and you're not part of 1.000 other guys who are shooting too). Don't buy the Lars Andersen myths that medieval archers were a bunch of Legolarses ... They were good, but they had to draw 120 pound-bows to full draw to do any damage on even average armour ...

What would make sense are siegecrossbows that are the most effective in close range where they would even be able to pearce plate-armour. And even than it would be one shot, dropping the crossbow and getting into melee.

But I am curious how and if they plan to tackle range-weapons in Exanima ...

 

[konggary]

I can't see arrows doing much against the skeletons.

 

[Greenbrog]

Crossbow. Should one shot many things, and archery should be more like K.LR.G. said, but with a balance towards "gameplay vs realism". After all, pure realism was never the goal, a fun game based in realism is. So I'd expect something closer to reality than LOTR, but still functional as a "main" source of damage.

 

[konggary]

I would love it archery weren't too powerful- being an expert in ranged combat AND melee would just make it too easy. I want to either be really good in one or the other, or decent in both.

I did enjoy the idea of having unique arrows, instead of just "10/15 arrows in quiver", or whatnot. Finding a sharp broadhead should be rewarding for its use against undead, while an arrow suited for penetrating armor could be very valuable for later in the game. This does bring up the problem of micromanagment: how do you select which arrow you pull out of your quiver, etc.

 

[Greenbrog]

Look the the number of skills per catagory, you will be able to buy all the close-combat and ranged skills if you want. Being an expert requires "player skill" not buying the skills.

 

[Tony]

Look the the number of skills per catagory, you will be able to buy all the close-combat and ranged skills if you want. Being an expert requires "player skill" not buying the skills.

Actually, I believe you can only train 5 techniques per skill if I understand it correctly (each skill will have 8 trainable techniques). A maxed out character will be able to train 15 techniques total out of the 56 available techniques.

 

[Greenbrog]

Still means you'll be able to commit to being an "expert" in both melee and ranged if you so choose. By all, I meant max yourself out in that catagory, basically you can be a master at 3 things if you want. Personally I plan to carry a crossbow, probably with no skills spent on it, max out close-combat and armor, and then dabble in the most "mobility" oriented magic; shoot, melee, manipulate.