[Suggestion] Archery Mechanics

Bows are great and fascinating weapons and all (I do archery myself), but I don't see how they would make that much sense in the Exanima context. It might make sense in Sui Generis that is supposed to have a large open overworld.

In a dungeon like environment it doesn't make that much sense if it should have the same realism as the melee-system. You are to close to your enemys and arrows are relativly useless as soon as there are decently armored targets. And archery in combat is more of a numbers-game anyway. One arrow won't do that much, unless we talk of really heavy warbows ... And even those are rendered inefficent by plate-armour. And with the top-down perspective it would be nearly impossible to aim at weakspots (at the side of the visor for example). And longbows are very unhandy in close space too ... And not that fast either if you have to aim properly (which you have to if any shot counts and you're not part of 1.000 other guys who are shooting too). Don't buy the Lars Andersen myths that medieval archers were a bunch of Legolarses ... They were good, but they had to draw 120 pound-bows to full draw to do any damage on even average armour ...

What would make sense are siegecrossbows that are the most effective in close range where they would even be able to pearce plate-armour. And even than it would be one shot, dropping the crossbow and getting into melee.

But I am curious how and if they plan to tackle range-weapons in Exanima ...
Well there's an armory in Exanima so bows could and should be found there. Whether or not you should use them is up to the player. Deducting that it could be a danger in close quarter combat is something the player should experience himself. But creating obstacles for enemies and pick them off or damage them at least is a viable strategy.
 

Bullethead

Member
Well there's an armory in Exanima so bows could and should be found there. Whether or not you should use them is up to the player. Deducting that it could be a danger in close quarter combat is something the player should experience himself. But creating obstacles for enemies and pick them off or damage them at least is a viable strategy.
While I agree with the overall strategy you outline, I have to say that Exanima isn't bow territory. For starters, there's the 3rd person camera that keeps you from seeing all the way across even a pretty small room. This necessarily keeps the combat at very close range.

That said, Exanima combat is within the range of thrown objects, like all those empty beer bottles lying around. You can seriously hurt folks with those, just from their mass, not even worrying about somehow making molotov cocktails out of them. It would be nice to catch a zombie upside the head with a thrown bottle on your way in to chop him to pieces. So have a bottle in each hand, one to throw and one to fight with. After the latter breaks across the zombie's forehead, slice him up with the jagged neck you're still holding :).
 

Greenbrog

Insider
Again. While everything in this game has roots in reality, and needs to make sense. Archery just like sword play will be a balance of reality/programming feasibility/fun/good game play. While having archery be like other games is probably not going to happen, BM will probably make it a viable way to do "MOST" of your fighting, if you focus on buying the skills AND develop player skills.
 
While I agree with the overall strategy you outline, I have to say that Exanima isn't bow territory. For starters, there's the 3rd person camera that keeps you from seeing all the way across even a pretty small room. This necessarily keeps the combat at very close range.

That said, Exanima combat is within the range of thrown objects, like all those empty beer bottles lying around. You can seriously hurt folks with those, just from their mass, not even worrying about somehow making molotov cocktails out of them. It would be nice to catch a zombie upside the head with a thrown bottle on your way in to chop him to pieces. So have a bottle in each hand, one to throw and one to fight with. After the latter breaks across the zombie's forehead, slice him up with the jagged neck you're still holding :).
Okay. But what you're trying to say is that you think bows won't work given that Exanima and Sui Generis are from an isometric perspective? I guess I see your point but loooong range archery would never really be viable given the fog of war. However, what if upon drawing a bow the camera would automatically zoom out somewhat to alleviate this problem?
 

Mikodzi

Insider
Guys, I think we are missing the point.
Archery in one or another form will be implemented and even close combat battles can't stop it from coming.
There are so much examples in top down RPGs where archery looks nice, so I can't imagine why Exanima's corridors can't be a suitable place for a bow fights. Even in skyrim, which is more fps than rpg - you mainly fight in narrow dungeons and rooms.

So, my point is not to argue whether the archery is suitable for this game, but instead to talk about various mechanics it could exploit.

Of course, it all could be all irrelevant if Madoc already working on it using his own approach.
 
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Bullethead

Member
So, my point is not to argue whether the archery is suitable for this game, but instead to talk about various mechanics it could exploit.
It would be absurd if largely outdoor Sui Generis doesn't end up with archery. And I certainly hope SG lets you look up just to enjoy the sweeping vistas, besides this being useful for long-range shooting. But all that's a problem for another day. Exanima is a different animal.

If you want to discuss the mechanics of trying to use bows (and other missile weapons) in close combat, you first have to forget all the BS circus "archery" in all the other games you've ever played and fantasy movies you've ever watched. Then you have to force yourself to remember how it works in real life. And when you do that, you'll realize that not having archery in Exanima is no big deal, the game can easily do without it, but thrown weapons are a great lack.

So, real life stuff:

With bows powerful enough to use in war, you're not going to be able to shoot and move at the same time. You need your whole body to draw the bow, based on feet firmly planted. And you're not going to hold the bow drawn for anything more than an instant, either. First, it's very, very difficult physically just from the strength POV, again requiring feet firmly planted. Natural bows follow the spring force law, requiring more force the further you draw them. Second, it's very bad for bows to be held drawn---it damages the wood fibers, causes the staff to take a set, and reduces both power and lifespan. Even being just strung with no draw on them at all is damaging, which is why bows aren't stored strung, let alone drawn.

Assuming the character has already strung his bow (not a quick or easy task), therefore, a realistic firing mechanic would be walking around with an arrow nocked and pointing mostly down, left index finger looped over the arrow to hold it against the side of the bow. Then, when you want to shoot, you stop, plant your feet so you're lined up to shoot in the direction of the target, and guesstimate the elevation needed for the range to the target. At this point, you raise the bow to the desired elevation while simultaneously drawing it, which is what enables you to get your whole body into the draw. The bow reaches full draw at the same time the arrow reaches the desired elevation and you immediately release the bowstring. No holding the bow drawn. Because the whole drawing and firing thing is one smooth, combined, continuous motion, there is no need for any sort of stamina meter or whatever, which is totally unrealistic.

So that's getting 1 shot off. Now you have to reload. This is a 2-step process. First, you have to get an arrow from somewhere and hold it in your hand. Second, you have to orient the arrow correctly on all 6 axes so you can nock it. Let's look at each step.

First, getting an arrow in your hand. If the arrow comes from a quiver, this isn't a fast process, especially if the arrowhead is barbed. But regardless of arrowhead, you need to do it smoothly and carefully so as not to damage the quiver, this arrow, or any of the others in the quiver. It's very easy to screw up the fletching feathers with clumsy, blind groping and that means the arrows won't shoot straight. So this will take several seconds and is best done standing still or walking slowly so the quiver and its contents aren't bouncing around very much.

Now nocking. When the arrow leaves the quiver, it's not pointed in anything like the correct orientation and is also on the wrong side of the bow. So now you have to bring the arrow around the bow while rotating it to point the correct direction and bringing into contact with the side of the bow and the bowstring. That's the easy part and can be done fairly quickly. But somewhere along the line, you also have to roll the arrow so the nock lines up with the bowstring and the cock feather points away from the bow, then actually fit the nock on the string. This rolling can be done by feel with the proper type of nock, but usually you have to look at what you're doing and you always have to pay attention. So this part of the process also limits what else you can be doing at the same time.

So all in all, quivers (at least when on your back as opposed to hanging on your saddle in front of you) contrary to games and movies, aren't really quick-draw devices. The way to get a high rate of fire with a bow when on foot is to not use a quiver. Instead, you stick the arrows in the ground in front of you, already rolled so the nock and cock feather are oriented mostly correctly. Then you just stoop slightly, pluck an arrow from the ground, fit it to the bow almost instantly, and then do the continuous draw/aim/fire motion as you come back up, repeat. Problem is, the preparation for this is time-consuming, once done you can't move at all without leaving your ammo behind, and you need dirt under you instead of the stone floor of a dungeon. Also, all your shots would be in essentially the same direction. IOW, this is a battlefield option, not a hunting or adventuring option.

Bottom line, therefore, is that in the dungeon, you'd probably only get off 1 shot every 10-15 seconds and be unable to move much between shots. Given that the enemy can cross the visible distance in less time than this, it's unlikely you'll have a chance to fire more than 1 shot per battle anyway, unless the AI is totally braindead. And then the enemy is in your face while you're still holding the useless bow with 1 hand and fumbling in your quiver with the other. Which is why bows weren't used much in close combat historically.

Thrown weapons, however, have a long history of close-combat use. Throw 1 or 2 objects (Roman pilum, Frankish axe, Aztec atlatl darts, beer bottles in bars, etc.) as you close with the enemy then hack and slash. Or, in a later era, fire your muzzleloading pistol once and then use it as a club to compliment your sword. Or fire your musket and charge home with the bayonet. Such weapons can be used on the move and don't get in the way of your melee weapons, or can even be used in melee. The battle is still decided by melee, the thrown/fired weapons just improve your odds before you come to blows.
 

Greenbrog

Insider
Dude
Guys, I think we are missing the point.
Archery in one or another form will be implemented and even close combat battles can't stop it from coming.
There are so much examples in top down RPGs where archery looks nice, so I can't imagine why Exanima's corridors can't be a suitable place for a bow fights. Even in skyrim, which is more fps than rpg - you mainly fight in narrow dungeons and rooms.

So, my point is not to argue whether the archery is suitable for this game, but instead to talk about various mechanics it could exploit.

Of course, it all could be all irrelevant if Madoc already working on it using his own approach.
, Bullethead, nobody wins with text walls.
 

Mikodzi

Insider
BM is not doing medieval fighting simulator, look, you even have invisible backpack full of swords and stuff.
And there zombies, skeletons and magic. Health bar and items stats.
So, it's a game, typical RPG with revolutionary controls and unique gameplay.

What I have suggested is to grab standard bow control gameplay and add a bit Exanima spice to that.
It should be fun and in the same time be rewarding as sword fighting is.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
I found @Bullethead 's post to be quite an interesting read. While most of the consideration are impractical from a gameplay point of view I think it's still useful to approach the problem informed. It can lead to interesting ideas and realistic details even if they are more symbolic of reality and not strictly realistic.

There's a lot to say on this topic and I won't get into it right now. In some ways the system we're designing is fairly similar to M&B's. You will be given a reticle that shrinks as you aim and grows again under various conditions (movement, reaiming, draw for too long) which is indicative of accuracy. You will be able to aim at exactly what you're pointing at with the reticle in 3D space, but in the case of targeting characters there's a sort of virtual targeting plane around them so that aiming next to their heads will shoot next to their heads rather than say the floor behind them. This is very similar to the targeting system we're developing for thrusts.
 

Loodrogh

Member
Sorry to interrupt you guys, but when i first read archery, i thought about hunting... of course i don´t know if this is going to be a part of SG, cause i just started reading forum posts. So please forgive my nescience ;) But hunting animals or using it for ambushes makes sense for me. I could also imagine using a bow on top of a castle wall, or in Multiplayer as support for my liege!
Going to read more of those threads... i promise
 

Stratohero

Member
I would hope archery would not be limited to peasant bowman style. As in, slow and defenseless in melee. That is only kind of archery to be found in all of gaming, for the most part. Combat archery is what I'd like to see. Mobile, accurate, and deadly even at point-blank range.
That's why crossbows exist.
 
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