What's taking so long?

gumshoe

Member
The only thing I could reiterate, which has been said time and time again, is patience.
I think this is likely the cause of most of the consternation. Mainly because the KS campaign (does Steam EA offer a target release date? Haven't checked) did not say 'Pledge funds and please wait patiently and stick with us until it's done,' it basically said (and is how people - naively or not - understand it when contributing) 'X funds required for Sui Generis, release date Y.' Think about how annoyed people get when they order something for next week and there's a couple of week delay...

The second part is that nothing much changes. The argument settles down, it goes quiet for a while until someone once again loses patience and away we go again... Maybe that's a hint that something in the communication approach should change... As Sui Generis likely won't be released a couple of months after the next big upcoming update, if communication remains as is you'll only see a trend upward in 'toxicity,' not down.
 

Homiccus

Member
it basically said (and is how people - naively or not - understand it when contributing) 'X funds required for Sui Generis, release date Y.'
It also said:
Pledge £30 or more
EXTRA TIER: Digital copy of the game and soundtrack on release, plus exclusive access to frequent downloadable videos of commentated game footage showing new features as they are developed.
Now, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but earlier someone was saying something about people taking responsibility for their actions... :p
 

Tony

Insider
Now, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but earlier someone was saying something about people taking responsibility for their actions... :p
BM have taken responsibility for their actions; they've openly admitted numerous times they haven't done the best job at communicating so far, that progress is slow, etc. Here's a quote by Madoc from the OP of this thread:

"We've been focusing on work and as usual we've neglected to keep you properly updated. I'm going to make an effort now to give you a brief overview of what we've been working on.

As you well know we've been adding content at a slow pace, with only 5 of the total 14 levels/maps released so far..."

Madoc didn't claim that BM weren't at fault for their actions or that decisions were forced upon them ;). People in this thread were claiming they were forced by the devs to be toxic and that doing so wasn't a choice they made (aka not taking responsibility for their actions). Such people willingly chose to be toxic when better options were available and then attempted to shift the blame for doing so onto someone else.


As far as the insider videos go he basically stopped releasing them around the same time a playable build of Exanima was released. It doesn't make much sense to show videos of something which people can play for themselves - it's a bit redundant and requires a significant amount of time. Once Exanima is fully released BM plan on hiring additional team members (funds permitting) which should help lessen the load currently required by each of the devs and speed up the development process. Hopefully then they'll once again have time to create more insider videos about SG development, their tools, etc.
 

Sgt. Floris

Member
BM have taken responsibility for their actions; they've openly admitted numerous times they haven't done the best job at communicating so far, that progress is slow, etc. Here's a quote by Madoc from the OP of this thread:

"We've been focusing on work and as usual we've neglected to keep you properly updated. I'm going to make an effort now to give you a brief overview of what we've been working on.

As you well know we've been adding content at a slow pace, with only 5 of the total 14 levels/maps released so far..."

He didn't claim that BM weren't at fault for their actions or that decisions were forced upon them ;).


As far as the insider videos go he basically stopped releasing them around the same time a playable build of Exanima was released. It doesn't make much sense to show videos of something which people can play for themselves - it's a bit redundant and requires a significant amount of time. Once Exanima is fully released BM plan on hiring additional team members (funds permitting) which should help lessen the load currently required by each of the devs and speed up the development process. Hopefully then they'll once again have time to create more insider videos about SG development, their tools, etc.
So basically what we can deduce from your post is that BM are liars and also don't keep their promises. I say this because while they admitted that communications is being neglected and promised to alleviate this problem, they still haven't done so. Instead of taking the time typing an apology letter from time to time, they could use that time to write dev updates.

Actions speak louder than words. Promises are easily made and also easily broken when there is zero incentive or reward (money) to keep them.
 
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Tony

Insider
So basically what we can deduce from your post is that BM are liars and also don't keep their promises. I say this because while they admitted that communications is being neglected and promised to alleviate this problem, they still haven't done so. Actions speak louder than words, instead of taking the time typing an apology letter from time to time, they could use that time to write dev updates.

Actions speak louder than words. Promises are easily made and also easily broken when there is zero incentive or reward (money) to keep them.
Are you being serious or intentionally trolling? The OP of this post was an update written by the devs... I suggest you take a moment or two and think about what you write before posting it because whether intentional or not you're constantly insulting the developers and other community members, spreading misinformation and libel, etc. and it's time to stop.
 

Sgt. Floris

Member
Are you being serious or intentionally trolling? The OP of this post was an update written by the devs...
Don't the devs have any accounts on this forum? Why are they using you as a middle man? I for one want to see dev updates being made by the devs themselves.
 

Tony

Insider
Don't the devs have any accounts on this forum? Why are they using you as a middle man? I for one want to see dev updates being made by the devs themselves.
Because I'm the community manager and that's what community managers do. That was a post made directly by BM and I even linked to the BM post in the OP so you could see so for yourself.
 

Sgt. Floris

Member
Because I'm the community manager and that's what community managers do. That was a post made directly by BM and I even linked to the BM post in the OP so you could see so for yourself.
Ok then, I guess we can delete this forum then seeing as it's not being used by devs anyway.
 

Tony

Insider
Ok then, I guess we can delete this forum then seeing as it's not being used by devs anyway.
This forum isn't going anywhere any time soon and the devs still use it to actively post information about each new patch HERE; however, no one is forcing you to visit this forum if you do not wish to do so :). Agnes also checks the forum on a near daily basis but she tends to lurk more than post ;).
 

Sgt. Floris

Member
This forum isn't going anywhere any time soon and the devs still use it to actively post information about each new patch HERE; however, no one is forcing you to visit this forum if you do not wish to do so :). Agnes also checks the forum on a near daily basis but she tends to lurk more than post ;).
Wow much useful, many helpful and such thanks o_O. Last post was made Feb 7th this year. That's almost 7 months ago ;). This game is dead anyway :).
 

Manuls

Member
A few years ago, i saw sui generis, i was sad that i couldnt back it because the backing was already done. I loved exanima when it came out.

But here is my outsider perspective:

Baremettle first wanted to do a medieval fighting simulation, then they starte developing sui generis, a few years ago i saw videos of clunky but interesting fighting scenes, and tools how easy landscapes can be generated. Then 1 or 2 years ago they early accessed exanima with the disclaimer that it is basically a reduced suigeneris dungeon crawler which gives people something to play with. It was fun, and i thought with all the work they already put into sui generis and its tools, this should be done rather fast. What i now have, after 5 years is a medieval fighting simulation (Arena mode) with 5 levels of dungeoncrawling added.

I hope they get the ships into the harbour, and i really apreciate what the devs are doing and still have hope. But the situation looks a bit ironic to say the least.

Thanks devs, keep it up!
 

ZaratanCho

Insider
They never wanted to, and are not creating a 'medieval fighting simulation'. The arena is added on, not the story mode.

(don't see anything ironic :? ;d)
 

Tony

Insider
Wow much useful, many helpful and such thanks o_O. Last post was made Feb 7th this year. That's almost 7 months ago ;). This game is dead anyway :).
Thank you for the kind words, I'm glad to be of service! If you honestly believe the game is dead and you're not just trolling then why keep showing up here? Is it because you can't resist my charms? :oops:
 

Fanzeo

Member
I think this is likely the cause of most of the consternation. Mainly because the KS campaign (does Steam EA offer a target release date? Haven't checked) did not say 'Pledge funds and please wait patiently and stick with us until it's done,' it basically said (and is how people - naively or not - understand it when contributing) 'X funds required for Sui Generis, release date Y.' Think about how annoyed people get when they order something for next week and there's a couple of week delay...

The second part is that nothing much changes. The argument settles down, it goes quiet for a while until someone once again loses patience and away we go again... Maybe that's a hint that something in the communication approach should change... As Sui Generis likely won't be released a couple of months after the next big upcoming update, if communication remains as is you'll only see a trend upward in 'toxicity,' not down.
This isn't something I'm disagreeing with. In fact the bulk of my post was making the recommendation that their communication style should be a bit more systematic and organized. I understand fully the amount of time people have been waiting, but the unfortunate conclusion is that unless Baremettle is provided with an inordinate amount of capital within the upcoming weeks they can't expedite their production. Which is why I reiterated patience, despite its existence throughout this process.

I think people need to understand that planning for a videogame release, especially with categorically unique coding, is extremely difficult. Crowdfunded games have a tendency to overestimate their ability to deliver, which frequently results in heavily missed timelines. It's sort of an industry standard to project optimistically, because the realistic approach would have stated that a 4-6 year release is expected. Unpredictabilities such as turnover, staff experience, adaptation, living situations, and family uncertainties, all factor into potential obstacles that impede productivity. If Baremettle gave that sort of estimation I doubt many people would have supported the Kickstarter. I'm not saying that they intentionally underprojected their release date but it certainly wouldn't have done them any favors to say "we honestly don't know how long this will take, but we will do our best."

The idea that Baremettle is intentionally lying feels like stretching the truth. The idea that Baremettle didn't fully understand the development process and potential setbacks is more likely. They are small team pioneering a genre that hasn't been attempted thus far. They aren't a triple A company with triple A resources so a little levity may be required when addressing their broken promises.

People need to understand that if the relationship between the community and it's developers is accusatory and resentful it deters the development team from wanting to communicate unless fully necessary. Submitting to defeatism and "woe is me no update for 7 months must be dead lol, cya fighting simulator," isn't conducive to a dialogue. I wouldn't want to talk to the community too if it became continuously addressing the same type of rhetoric.

Anyways, hopefully we see communication improve because we have made it abundantly clear that it is the main source of criticism.
 

gumshoe

Member
This isn't something I'm disagreeing with. In fact the bulk of my post was making the recommendation that their communication style should be a bit more systematic and organized. I understand fully the amount of time people have been waiting, but the unfortunate conclusion is that unless Baremettle is provided with an inordinate amount of capital within the upcoming weeks they can't expedite their production. Which is why I reiterated patience, despite its existence throughout this process.

I think people need to understand that planning for a videogame release, especially with categorically unique coding, is extremely difficult.
A good reason for consistent and clear communication then ;)

Crowdfunded games have a tendency to overestimate their ability to deliver, which frequently results in heavily missed timelines. It's sort of an industry standard to project optimistically, because the realistic approach would have stated that a 4-6 year release is expected. Unpredictabilities such as turnover, staff experience, adaptation, living situations, and family uncertainties, all factor into potential obstacles that impede productivity. If Baremettle gave that sort of estimation I doubt many people would have supported the Kickstarter. I'm not saying that they intentionally underprojected their release date but it certainly wouldn't have done them any favors to say "we honestly don't know how long this will take, but we will do our best."
I think this is the trickiest part. Ideally the company has a planned scope, budget and delivery date, they present it to KS and then work to execute it. The problem arises in human desire to improve, the scope changes, budget needs grow, kinks need fixing, the timeline grows, repeat.

In a selfish sense people could say they did not ask for all the enhancements and scope creep (though of course people ask for many things without understanding impact) , they want what was defined at the start for better or worse. This is the bit a publisher would block - 'No you can't just keep changing things, get the game out.'

We know we'll end up with a much better game in the end, but not everyone supports the approach, and it seems a common one in early access that as long as development continues in some manner then it doesn't matter to manage scope and deadlines.

The idea that Baremettle is intentionally lying feels like stretching the truth.
Agreed, it's just human desire to improve their work and I think unfair to claim devious behaviour.

The idea that Baremettle didn't fully understand the development process and potential setbacks is more likely. They are small team pioneering a genre that hasn't been attempted thus far. They aren't a triple A company with triple A resources so a little levity may be required when addressing their broken promises.
True, but they've also taken liberty of the community not having any real way to control or 'punish' missed deliverables in choosing the extra work option vs get the game out each time.

People need to understand that if the relationship between the community and it's developers is accusatory and resentful it deters the development team from wanting to communicate unless fully necessary. Submitting to defeatism and "woe is me no update for 7 months must be dead lol, cya fighting simulator," isn't conducive to a dialogue. I wouldn't want to talk to the community too if it became continuously addressing the same type of rhetoric.
But this is entirely in the remit of the developers/moderators to manage. You can't blame community for being toxic, it should not get to that point if there is strong engagement and clear rules and moderation. Developers choosing to further remove themselves from the community is the best way to make it worse.

Sorry Tony/Bare Mettle, I know these kinds of threads suck to read (especially the out of hand comments) when crunching to get things done (I'm a moderator on another development forum), but please consider the actual feedback and how you want the community to see you.
 

Fanzeo

Member
Haha I realize we aren't actually disagreeing all together. I'm just trying to play devil's advocate for the way the community reacts within certain threads. I fully agree that if the forum culture escalates to this point of toxicity there is clearly a need for consistent communication.

I also acknowledge that these threads aren't exactly pleasant to read. However, they can be honest and taken constructively at face value. Clearly the common sentiment is a sense of frustration within the vocal community.

If I could make any contribution to this thread I would just say treat the forums and its communication like a relationship. Long periods of drought between status updates creates the impression of detachment. It's not a nice feeling to be kept in the dark of projects you're heavily invested in. Especially when it's a mixture of emotional and financial interest.

Really that's the extent that I can contribute. Acknowledge there is merit to both sides and just improve communication. I don't think people are bothered so much by the lack of updates but more by the lack of formalized reasons given by the developers. Especially without coordinating it on all their mediums of communication.
 
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Tony

Insider
Sorry Tony/Bare Mettle, I know these kinds of threads suck to read (especially the out of hand comments) when crunching to get things done (I'm a moderator on another development forum), but please consider the actual feedback and how you want the community to see you.
Well, if everyone would present their ideas and voice their concerns in a manner such as you've chosen to do then it wouldn't suck to read any of the threads. Thank you for being a good example :).
 

Jimmini

Insider
I think certain community members overestimate their entitlement and their importance to the developers. People got what they paid for. Some seem to think Bare Mettle needs to do a better job at communication and what not, to attract new customers. But obviously, they don't need or even want them, as they seem to have enough funds to keep development going, and at the same time are able to prevent having an abundance of casual gamers flooding the forums and complaining about everything that concerns the game and the developers behind it. They have enough of those already.

Kickstarter is not a shop. You donate because you want to help the people behind the projects and would like to see their ideas realized. You don't buy a product. You may not get anything at all.

Things like exclusive videos about the game, that were promised on Kickstarter, don't make sense at this point in time, as development is currently focused on a game that is publicly available. So basically, people complain that it's not exlusive to insiders, I guess.

Only a very short-sighted publisher would force their developers to get a certain game out at a specific date no matter what. They would obviously put some pressure on them, but releasing an unfinished game doesn't seem very wise to me. A good publisher would try to understand the circumstances and do everything they can to help the developers finish the game, instead of ranting about everything they do, all the time. It takes as long as it takes. They either release crap now, or the things they promised later. I have no diffulty deciding between these two options (not that my opinion about it would matter in any way).

When you buy an Early Access game, you do get a product, in its current state, but that is it. You're either satisfied with that state or simply want to donate and help the developers.

I completely understand that it's frustrating, having to wait for such a long time, and sparse communication is making matters only worse. But again, that's everyone's own problem, not Bare Mettle's. When they post status updates, they do so out of respect for their supporters, not because they're obliged to it. But they also have way more important things to do, which are beneficial in the long term, instead of alleviating impatience, that is obsolete in a few weeks, when people demand the next status update.

I'm glad they found their own way of approaching development, instead of adopting the industry standard consisting of hyping and kissing everyone's arse. The way they treat their community is actually one of the things I like so much about them. They are making the game for themselves too and want it to see realized more desperately than any of us.

I think some people here should be more grateful that they are making these games and put such an amount of care into everything, instead of constantly demanding all kinds of things, like regular status updates, timelines, quicker game updates, more frequent visits by the developers in the forums, or even apologies. I don't understand why some people are still around here, if they think the game is dead anyway.


Everyone can be toxic and throw insults at eachothers as much as they like, as long as they do it somewhere else, because it's against the forum rules. Simple as that. But I leave that topic to Tony and Murf.

I don't think it's the right discussion for playing devil's advocate either. People state their honest concerns and would like to be treated seriously, and not get drowned in arguments for either side, made just for the heck of it. Wasting time with addressing artificial opinions is just frustrating and makes matters worse.

Anyway, time for me to shut up.
 
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