Principles of running

[the0thMonkey]

This post is in response to the "having armour fit properly" sidenote above.

I think the entire system could be summed up with one field, that would describe how well the armour fits. All of the factors that could contribute to how well an armour piece fits would be implicitly included in this one number. Let's say the number ranges from 0-100 (or 0.0-1.0) with 50 being average, 0 being one extreme and 100 being the other extreme (a bell curve centred on 50). You would have a number that denoted your body size, shape, proportions, etc calculated at the beginning of the game. Also, armour pieces (that you found/bought/stole) would have a number indicating who they were intended to fit. Penalties caused by armour not fitting perfectly would be calculated based on the difference between my number and the number of the armour I was wearing. If you brought a piece of armour to the smith, they could adjust it to fit you for a small fee (possibly based on the difference between the original number and the final number). This adjustment would cause the armours number to change from what is was, to your number (plus or minus a bit based on the skill of the smith).

I think this system would work well, but there are definitely other options. If my explanation doesn't make sense, I could provide an example if you wanted.

 

[Vagabond]

Readers,

First off, HELLO! My first post, Pardon me. Back to topic; It's of my belief that armor should affect how well damage of various types are absorbed. Quality (worksmanship/materials) of the armor should determine how well. Armor should also be a status symbol. The lowly peasant whom lives on a warring border, or in an area infested with bandits or other miscreants might have a gambeson made by his wife, which provides some defense. A lordly knight would wear a suite of plate armor. Then you have the people wearing patchwork armor. Pieces of armor that when combined, don't quite conform to any standard. A leather tunic (usually considered "Light armor"), a mail coif (Usually considered "Medium armor"), a pauldron on the right shoulder, and a plate gauntlet on one hand and leather on the other.

The drawbacks of all armor are cost. Cost to buy. Cost to steal (prison). Cost to acquire through murderous means (prison/danger to life). Cost to have fitted. Cost to repair. The better the armor and the harder it is to acquire would determine just how costly these things are. Skill and stat "Debuffs" from equipment isn't very realistic in most cases. As someone else mentioned, the most expensive and useful armor (plate) weighed considerably less (44 pounds in the renaissance era) then a united states marine's kit (70-130 pounds depending on squad designation). when you look at where a marine operates (iraq/iran/afganastan - the desert), you begin to understand that heat, weight, and daily activity is mostly moot. At most it is just uncomfortable and causes you to be a little sore when the time comes to actually sit down and complain about it. A game that strives for realism must sacrifice balance. They are opposites. It remains to be seen how realistic this game strives to be.

Life isn't fair. Balance attempts to be. I prefer realism and would personally throw balance to the wind.

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[martino]

I'm no historian but I can't imagine it being very practical to have soldiers fighting in shifts. It's not hockey. ...., these men are fighting to the death. This automatically raises the stakes higher than any sport.

Correct soldier rotated from the front of their group to the back, It depended on how trained (and they type of training the soldiers had). Formation fighting was also very important an a soldier could just focus on the area directly in front of him and not have to worry about his flanks.

While it is a fight to the death if a knight feels invincible because of his armor he will take more risks. (Knight were often order to dismount and fight on foot, because when mounted they would go off on their own, get over powered and killed)

Your heat being trapped by the armour is a good point, and these fighters would undeniably be tired and hot, but I don't think respite would be close at hand. If everybody is tired (or everybody fights with a lesser intensity as mentioned above) fighting could go on for a long time.

With training you learn to pace yourself. Even when fatigued you are still capable of burst of speed/ energy. When you have a lapse of concentration that is when your match /life is over.

That been said I would like to see fatigue introduce into these type of games. Fighting multiple opponents is much more taxing than one on one. No matter how skilled you are. But then how would such a mechanics translate to a game where your meant to be playing a single hero (or very small group). And how frustrating would it be if no matter what level you were you could be over whelmed by a dozen weak opponents.

Back on the topic. Same with running: while not realistic, been able to sprint across the map, wait 10 second and then been fully fresh for a fight. Does keep the tempo of the game up.

 

[Vagabond]

Readers,

Sorry, but I failed to communicate my ideas on running in my previous post, having instead gotten myself embroiled in the age old armor discussion.

When a person runs, they don't start out going as fast as they possibly can. It takes time to build of speed. Encumbrance affects how quickly they accelerate and decelerate. In most rpgs you have a key that -toggles- walk to jog (that usually doesn't get touched >.>), and a separate key that you hold to sprint (which tends to consume some sort of energy). Now... It's my belief that this set up is part of why the animations look so jerky (as someone else mentioned) when switching between speeds.

An average healthy person (not even an athlete) can jog for quite awhile. I'm no athlete or physical fitness nut (I got a bit of a beer belly, don't judge), but I can jog a mile in nine minutes. My dad is in the navy (submariner) and he smokes three cigarettes at a time, is in his early forties, and huffs moving a couch. He aces his PTs and outshines younger guys.

Sprinting is something else entirely. It is actively pushing yourself to go as fast as possible. Where this is most applicable in combat is "charging", because honestly, tapping the shift key for a few seconds every thirty second to get somewhere faster (*cough* skyrim *cough*) is not how real people travel.

Force equals mass times acceleration. The larger the object and the faster it moves, the greater the force it is generating. Work equals force times distance. -work- is what force does on an object. As force is mass times acceleration, the distance traveled will increase the force as it accelerates.

Therefore, we need a model of encumbrance and acceleration for the character, instead of simply assigning static speeds to their movement modes (walk, jog, run/sprint). Your character will start off moving slowly, and accelerate based on factors (encumbrance, skills, stats, terrain, ect.), and finally reach his/her top speed. In the case of a charge, the force delivered onto the object upon reaching it would do damage based on those factors, I suppose.

Cheers,
Michael

P.S: I'm no mathematician, those are just the basic formula I remember, and I didn't take into consideration the various variables which may or may not be included into calculating acceleration prior to using F=MA.... Anyways...I think you all got my drift, I hope.

 

[Bibidibop]

People are quite maneuverable, so I don't think acceleration would play too much of a noticeable part, even if modeled very delicately, unless it's made into light armor's, and no armor's, advantage. I would love heavier armor to be straight up better than lesser armor in every way. However, I like the idea of more refined movement.

What about having Walk on WASD, Jog on a toggle on Shift, but if you hold Shift for an extended moment (half second?) it works like any other key rather than toggling, and to Sprint you double-tap a WASD key. When in combat, double tapping could result in a leap, and if held it could merge into a sprint?

 

[Vagabond]

Readers,

I'd love to see various movement methods... My biggest thing is that I've never personally see it done in a game that isn't over-the-shoulder third person, or first person. How hard will it be to control a double tap of D to dodge right? How hard would it be to accurately transition from walk -> jog -> sprint -> jump over an obstacle all with an over head view... I mean, its simple in Assassin's Creed (which is the only game I know of that has acceleration based movement (taking time to get up to full speed). Assassin's Creed is an over the shoulder game...not a game where the camera can be all over the place at any time... I don't know. Guess we just gotta wait for more videos to show off the mechanics they are developing for movement.

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Cooper Holt]

People are quite maneuverable, so I don't think acceleration would play too much of a noticeable part, even if modeled very delicately, unless it's made into light armor's, and no armor's, advantage. I would love heavier armor to be straight up better than lesser armor in every way. However, I like the idea of more refined movement.

What about having Walk on WASD, Jog on a toggle on Shift, but if you hold Shift for an extended moment (half second?) it works like any other key rather than toggling, and to Sprint you double-tap a WASD key. When in combat, double tapping could result in a leap, and if held it could merge into a sprint?

Actually, both heavy armour and light armour have their advantages and disadvantages.
Light armour keeps you more mobile and less noisy, but heavy armour protects you better.
Acceleration would change significantly. Trying to run with a hardened, studded-leather tunic on is pretty easy, but running with a full suit of steel armour is quite hard.

 

[Bibidibop]

Actually, both heavy armour and light armour have their advantages and disadvantages.
Light armour keeps you more mobile and less noisy, but heavy armour protects you better.
Acceleration would change significantly. Trying to run with a hardened, studded-leather tunic on is pretty easy, but running with a full suit of steel armour is quite hard.

Noise is going to be depend on the quality of the plate armor, the latest armors of the Medieval period were completely sealed and smooth operating; I don't think anything would rattle. Even chain can be quiet if you pad things right. If you were trying to be stealthy then you shouldn't wear armor, because it will make you tired sooner.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Noise is going to be depend on the quality of the plate armor, the latest armors of the Medieval period were completely sealed and smooth operating; I don't think anything would rattle. Even chain can be quiet if you pad things right. If you were trying to be stealthy then you shouldn't wear armor, because it will make you tired sooner.

I believe you mean "If one was being stealthy"

This is relevant because you make it seem as if you were customizing my character.
I want to be a male, dual-sword wielding, light armour-wearing, logic-using, stealthy Necromancer.
I will wear light armour whenever I can find it (Typically light-armour padded cloaks and long-coats, if possible), but if there is only heavy armour around, I will wear it.
I will customize my character to my liking, and I will not wear heavy armour.
If you loot armour off of someone, then it probably won't be your size.

Light armour let's you move more quickly simply because it weighs less.
It's less noisy because it is made from mostly leather, stud, and chain.
Most of the factors rely on how well armour fits you and what it's made of, but weight matters too. You have to keep that in mind.

Back on topic: I'm not sure how I feel about acceleration and stuff, but I think it should be pretty classic.
AWSD = Slow Jog/Walk
AWSD + Shift = Run/Sprint
Input, anyone?

 

[Infidel]

I think the entire system could be summed up with one field, that would describe how well the armour fits.

That is exactly what I attempted to describe in my post. To calculate how well a piece of armour fits any given character you need to know the shape of that character's body and the shape of the body for which the armour was created. A recent developer post indicates body shape is defined by two values: one for fat and another for muscle. If armour were to contain hidden fields identical to these then a single field defining how well or poorly that piece of armour fits your character (or any other) could be derived from the sum of differences between the character's fat and muscle, and those hidden fields contained in the armour. For example:

These fields describe character and armour shape, they are not seen in game:

Character ( Fat=25, Muscle=48 )
Armour1 ( Fat=36, Muscle=23 )
Armour2 ( Fat=22, Muscle=50 )

A single field shown in game on a piece of armour describes how well it fits your character:

Armour1 Fit Penalty = 36
Difference between fat 25 & 36 is 11 and between muscle 48 & 23 is 25.
Sum of differences is 11 + 25 = 36

Armour2 Fit Penalty = 5
Difference between fat 25 & 22 is 3 and between muscle 48 & 50 is 2.
Sum of differences is 3 + 2 = 5

The fit penalty could then be used to scale the magnitude of whatever affect wearing poorly fitted armour has on the character in game.

 

[Madoc]

Regading controls, currently walking and running is done by holding down a mouse button, you run towards the cursor and the distance of the cursor from your character determines whether you walk or run (the cursor changes).

WASD are used to take single steps in 8 directions relative to the cursor (W steps towards the cursor), you can step continuously and you can turn your character or step in a new direction during a step. Changing direction is not instant however, it depends on the physics and animations, i.e. if you started a step you will not be able to take a different step until your first foot lands on the ground again. We plan to add dashes / dodges with WASD double taps.

There is accelleration and deceleration, again implicit in the physics and animation. It's fast and not usually very noticeable, what I mean is that it's not like many games where you can instantly move in the opposite direction at full speed.

We want the controls to be fully customisable, with various options as well as key and button assignments.

 

[Komuflage]

Regading controls, currently walking and running is done by holding down a mouse button, you run towards the cursor and the distance of the cursor from your character determines whether you walk or run (the cursor changes).

WASD are used to take single steps in 8 directions relative to the cursor (W steps towards the cursor), you can step continuously and you can turn your character or step in a new direction during a step. Changing direction is not instant however, it depends on the physics and animations, i.e. if you started a step you will not be able to take a different step until your first foot lands on the ground again. We plan to add dashes / dodges with WASD double taps.

There is accelleration and deceleration, again implicit in the physics and animation. It's fast and not usually very noticeable, what I mean is that it's not like many games where you can instantly move in the opposite direction at full speed.

We want the controls to be fully customisable, with various options as well as key and button assignments.

Wait, so we move by aiming our cursor in a specific direction and hold a mouse button down, LMB I guess?
But with WASD we can take one step in one direction, so to walk backwards/Strafe we have to aim the cursor in a direction, and repentantly press A/S/D? Seems a bit confusing?

 

[Madoc]

Wait, so we move by aiming our cursor in a specific direction and hold a mouse button down, LMB I guess?
But with WASD we can take one step in one direction, so to walk backwards/Strafe we have to aim the cursor in a direction, and repentantly press A/S/D? Seems a bit confusing?

No, you can hold the keys down but they are intended for steps, not walking. How often do you see people walking or running backwards and sideways (besides in games)?

What do you find confusing? I'm not sure I understand, why would you have to aim the cursor? The steps are relative to the cursor direction and your character always attempts to face the cursor, at least those are the combat controls. When in combat and facing an opponent S would always step away from them, for example. A forward step with a well timed attack will implicitly perform a lunge. Kieran demonstrates the stepping in the combat exaplained video.

 

[TigerBunnyHeart]

1. Run away from thugs
2. Run away from MoBs
3.Run away of an giant monster
4.Just running for fun
5.Running in cycle (For No Reason!)
6. Running in cycle (Because you are dizzy as heck!/ Painicing)
7. Running with your friends
8.Catching (Running around) your friends
9.Catching Animals (for food)
10.Catching thugs
And here JK! is your answer !!!!

 

[the0thMonkey]

I would just like to congratulate Vagabond on his first three posts being so stellar! Welcome, and keep up the good work!

 

[Komuflage]

No, you can hold the keys down but they are intended for steps, not walking. How often do you see people walking or running backwards and sideways (besides in games)?

What do you find confusing? I'm not sure I understand, why would you have to aim the cursor? The steps are relative to the cursor direction and your character always attempts to face the cursor, at least those are the combat controls. When in combat and facing an opponent S would always step away from them, for example. A forward step with a well timed attack will implicitly perform a lunge. Kieran demonstrates the stepping in the combat exaplained video.

Ok I think I get it. I though you used WASD to move, and the mouse to aim (maybe there is a better word for this) you character in a direction.
So when I read that you hold down the mouse button to walk/run I found it a bit confusing.

Anyway, so you walk/run just like most top-down RPGs, by holding down LMB (Or whatever key you'll bind it to) and use the cursor so chose which direction you want to go.

But with WASD combined, you can do things like, special moves, simple dodge (Taking a fast step back and your enemy will miss his attack) or simply repositioning yourself. (Maybe you need to move a little to the left, and you can just tap "A")

Sorry if I don't explain myself well enough, English is not my main language, so it can cause some miscommunication from time to time ^^

Anyways, thanks for the reply, think it cleared it up for me

 

[martino]

What do you find confusing? I'm not sure I understand, why would you have to aim the cursor? The steps are relative to the cursor direction and your character always attempts to face the cursor, at least those are the combat controls. When in combat and facing an opponent S would always step away from them, for example. A forward step with a well timed attack will implicitly perform a lunge. Kieran demonstrates the stepping in the combat exaplained video.

I think a lot of people were thinking that the WASD movements were in relation to the screen not the mob.
I think there will be a small learning cure as people get use to hitting W to advance on the mob when their character is located above it. I can also see people deliberately positing there character below what ever their fighting so WASD feel more intuitive.

It also sounds like if you want to lunge but don't time your mouse click and key-press you with find yourself either swing on the spot or advancing with out attacking (and possibly no way to parry)

Is there a place for the Q and E keys to be used to to advance and step to the side for an attack. Say to be used again Spear welders or people with shields. To get around stabbing attacks or attack exposed sides as your opponent attacks. I guess the same movement could be imitated by simultaneously clicking the W(A or D) keys and attacking.

Anyway I like what I am hearing.

 

[Komuflage]

I think a lot of people were thinking that the WASD movements were in relation to the screen not the mob.


Is there a place for the Q and E keys to be used to to advance and step to the side for an attack.

It's in relation to the cursor

If you want to move diagonally, you press WA/WD

 

[martino]

If you want to move diagonally, you press WA/WD

Reading what is there currently WA or WD would be 2 movements one forward and one to the side.

WASD are used to take single steps in 8 directions relative to the cursor..

Madoc mentioned that he wants to keep the control as simple as possible. The question I have is, how do you execute special move (which I believe are planed)
1) Key combos. eg: D,W+click,S = side stepping sweep
2) Add a couple of extra movement keys. eg: E+click= side stepping sweep
3) Let the game engine handle it. eg: W or D + side stepping sweep or some other attack.

All option have their pros and cons...
And now that I have re- read the earlier posts I guess the winner is option 1

 

[Vagabond]

I would just like to congratulate Vagabond on his first three posts being so stellar! Welcome, and keep up the good work!

the0thMonkey,

Thank you for the sentiment. I try to be as clear and concise as I possibly can, while trying to remain as to the point and monotonous as I can to prevent readers from misconstrued conclusions. I've found it to be the best method to prevent hurt feelings, flame wars, and trolling. I appreciate the compliment, though.

Thank you,
Michael.
~
Readers,

In regards to post twenty-nine by Cooper Holt: leather isn't all that quiet in my experience, chain even less so. I would surmise (from personal experience) that based on sound, from most quiet to most noisy, it would be tiered as such: Leather, Plate, then chain. Leather still being quite audible, especially in long drawn movements. How well it fits and quality affecting this, of course (in most cases). I don't know of anything that can be done to muffle chain rattling. Perhaps if the chain was built into a thick gambeson, but I've never heard of such armor. I suppose this is just another rehash of the "Plate is an improvement in every way" argument. Apologies.

I think what I would prefer to see is status/caste based restrictions governed by law. It was something I came across in another RPG that really added flavor to the world (Not sure if it is historically based), but it was against the law for any who wasn't a noble (knights included in that as the lowest tier of nobility) to wear plate armor. There were restrictions in this fictional kingdom for chain aswell; only people who worked for the kingdom could wear chain (such as soldiers, guards, certain officials). Compounded onto this, the king made it law that certain weapons weren't legal for use by certain people. Certain draw weights for bows and crossbows were illegal for non-military use (to prevent them being used to kill knights and such in armor). So as a commoner, you were pretty much relegated to leathers, blades under a certain length, and repurposed tools.

Cheers,
Michael