Melee Combat

[Dragomir]

I made this account purely to say, thank you for posting this, and I sincerely hope the devs take everything you said and run with it.

Thanks for appreciation My whole post was supposed to be guidelines to what devs should do if they DO want realism in certain areas of the game.

At the same time, one needs to balance realism with not-boring.

The existence of magic in the realisty of Sui Generis is I think enough to make it not-boring I'm perfectly aware however that realism doesn't always equal fun. It would be shame though to have a game that is so physics driven, but has characters that do incorrect moves to use that physics and system properly.

The over the top attacks are what makes a combat system brutal and generally satisfying. Obviously, we don't need to spin around in circles like a retard, but bringing a weapon all the way back and delivering a titanic slash/smash is, for lack of a fancy technical word. Fun.

There needs to be a limit to the over-the-topness, of course, but if you choke it off all the way, the combat just gets boring.

It can be replaced with moves that are visually attractive due to their dexterity

From what I've seen, of course, the devs are trying to make combat as realistic as possible, but I will restate my main point here, being too realistic is boring.

A solution that could give us the best of both worlds, in my opinion, is make the auto-attacks the fast, skillful strikes, but give us an option to do the full wind up over head swing of bisection when the situation allows for it.

There's plenty of realistic moves that can look just as epic and intense as over-the-top choreography. I'd love to have an option to make a very wide and strong blow - especially for fighting against big monsters. What I wouldn't like is to have all animations be like that - and there are many games that do that.
As I said, as a fledgeling we could flop our weapons around as it is visible in combat videos that have been made public so far. But as we get more skilled we'd get better variety of attacks, from skillful quick hits to full and powerful blows.

Anyway, here's a combat video that has incredibly skillful, minimalistic and quick blows, but it's definetly NOT BORING ;P

Oh, and before anyone starts going on about that blows must be powerful to be deadly... Watch this.

 

[Facekillz058]

Okay, realistic can be awesome, .

Those were maneuvers with light and well balanced long swords, though. I would like to see agile strikes like that happen with a Zweihander, or other large sword, which is kinda the weapon my whole, slow powerful strike was inspired around.

 

[the0thMonkey]

Welcome Dragomir! Nice first post.

The thing that is nice about realism is that it provides a very clear and consistent basis upon which things can be measured. For instance, we shouldn't need to worry about a flashy attack that looks cool and does a lot of damage in-game, but would actually be really impractical or ineffective. With consistent realism, the attack would be as effective as it looked.

Secondly, something that is also really interesting to think about is: Why does including thaumaturgy automatically exclude realism? In the world of SG, thaumaturgy exists and it is a realistic world. It's difficult to explain exactly what I mean... The impact on melee combat would be intriguing though. What new fighting styles developed to take into account magic users? Have special weapons particularly effective against reassembling skeletons been developed? What about replacing a traditional shield with an offhand spell? Essentially, my second point is that thaumaturgy and realism are not mutually exclusive, and a world that combined the two well would be a lot of fun to play around in.

P.S. About that second video... Damn! that is a sharp sword.

 

[Facekillz058]

I think I see what you're saying about realism? SG is a realistic world, and Thaumaturgy is part of that world, thusly, it is a realistic feature of the realistic world? I have no idea what I'm trying to say at this point.

 

[Lathspell]

however with time I learned that having at least one companion is always a huge advantage, and teamwork always beats individual skill.

not always, at least for me companions doesn't work...

I usually go with stealth gamestyle in games, obviously if you want to go stealth is better to go without companions, but sometimes they are useful because they can carry stuff or needed in a quest, but NPC AI is like crap and ruins your gamestyle, and it's annoying to make them wait you every time you spot some enemies

I don't know if want to put companions and parties, they should fit to every character's style or making attack and stay out of combat an alternative

I like pets like a dog, a bird or some animal dough

 

[fluffydino2000]

I'm assuming the AI won't be an issue for companions in this game since the AI will be part of the event system which we know is supposed to be hyper dynamic.

 

[Dragomir]

not always, at least for me companions doesn't work...

I usually go with stealth gamestyle in games, obviously if you want to go stealth is better to go without companions, but sometimes they are useful because they can carry stuff or needed in a quest, but NPC AI is like crap and ruins your gamestyle, and it's annoying to make them wait you every time you spot some enemies

I don't know if want to put companions and parties, they should fit to every character's style or making attack and stay out of combat an alternative

I like pets like a dog, a bird or some animal dough

When I said "with time I learned" I meant in real life reenactment fights I also tend to play a lone stealthy character, but that's a major difference. Stealth happens BEFORE the combat, when combat starts you're not sneaking anymore obviously. And the discussion was about combat itself. What would be good is to have companions with good AI, but also to have a lot of control over what they do, even if it's simply telling them where to stand or where to go, or which enemy to attack from which direction (pretty much like in oldschool party-based RPG's). Companions in new games are annoying for two reasons: first, they're stupid, second: they get in the way and do what we don't want them to do. Now, with advanced combat AI (that I hope SG will have) and some sort of way to control your companions it would make them very, very useful. Facing many enemies at once alone is never a good idea, and it's not always possible to take them out one by one (in Sui Generis it will be rather rare I believe as there won't be any pre-setups of enemies in convenient places).

 

[Lathspell]

When I said "with time I learned" I meant in real life reenactment fights

:0 cool!! I like archery myself, but because of money can't get a bow, but sooner I'll get one...

I also tend to play a lone stealthy character, but that's a major difference. Stealth happens BEFORE the combat, when combat starts you're not sneaking anymore obviously. And the discussion was about combat itself. What would be good is to have companions with good AI, but also to have a lot of control over what they do, even if it's simply telling them where to stand or where to go, or which enemy to attack from which direction (pretty much like in oldschool party-based RPG's). Companions in new games are annoying for two reasons: first, they're stupid, second: they get in the way and do what we don't want them to do. Now, with advanced combat AI (that I hope SG will have) and some sort of way to control your companions it would make them very, very useful.

True

Facing many enemies at once alone is never a good idea, and it's not always possible to take them out one by one (in Sui Generis it will be rather rare I believe as there won't be any pre-setups of enemies in convenient places).

yeah, based on how will be combat system, even two vs one will be a hard challenge but now that I think about it, It will be cool to have 1 vs more than 1 combat situations...maybe near the end of the game...anyway I'm pretty much good at reloading...haha

 

[Omenov]

When I said "with time I learned" I meant in real life reenactment fights I also tend to play a lone stealthy character, but that's a major difference. Stealth happens BEFORE the combat, when combat starts you're not sneaking anymore obviously. And the discussion was about combat itself. What would be good is to have companions with good AI, but also to have a lot of control over what they do, even if it's simply telling them where to stand or where to go, or which enemy to attack from which direction (pretty much like in oldschool party-based RPG's). Companions in new games are annoying for two reasons: first, they're stupid, second: they get in the way and do what we don't want them to do. Now, with advanced combat AI (that I hope SG will have) and some sort of way to control your companions it would make them very, very useful. Facing many enemies at once alone is never a good idea, and it's not always possible to take them out one by one (in Sui Generis it will be rather rare I believe as there won't be any pre-setups of enemies in convenient places).

Good points there about companions. I always liked having a party member with me but only if the ai is good enough. There have been a few games that do companions ok. If you have a friend playing with you you can't control him ( Leeeroy Jinkins!!!) so having to control every little thing about a helper gets tiring. I could go either way have a helper or totally solo. Sometimes it fun to have to watch out for a companion and it's fun to gear them up. Maybe a good archer as a helper. Stands out of the way and plunks um but I could see that going wrong with a narrow to the back of your head!! The first dungeon siege was kinda cool with the helpers. I think I read somewhere here that we may have helpers but they might not stick around or they have their own agendas? I can't remember what the devs said I'll go try to look it up again.

 

[Fawz]

Here are a few quotes from the Devs in regards to having companions:

Even if you are cooperating a stray swing of your friend's weapon will still hurt, thaumaturgy affects everything etc. We want AI whether for combat, dialogue or anything else to function in relation to groups as well as individuals (the two things can be conceptually abstracted by AI). Even in single player you may be able to join, lead or form bands of mercenaries, for example.

There will be a great many unique non player characters in the world and some of them may choose to follow you. Whether they become friends or enemies or are simply indifferent is completely circumstantial, there may however be some predisposed for this role. The game is not specifically designed to have a persistent party of companions. If they perish they will not return to life, or at least not as they were. Ultimately no character (or creature) is special, all are subject to the same rules and the physical laws of the universe.

Sounds to me like they're on the right track to having meaningful companions. Since they are subject to same world rules as everyone, friendly fire is a concern and if a character were to die it would be forever (Unless it's you, or if they come back as something else like being reanimated).

The combat AI is being given proper behaviour for both single and group battles, so I would imagine the AI companion would take your placement in consideration when fighting.

Top off on top of that the overall NPC behavior where each character in the world has agency where they have their own goals that drive them and you get companions that aren't tied to you at the hip. You have to persuade them to follow you and if you do something that doesn't fall in line with their goals they won't stick to you forever because you clicked the hige button.

 

[Omenov]

Here are a few quotes from the Devs in regards to having companions:





Sounds to me like they're on the right track to having meaningful companions. Since they are subject to same world rules as everyone, friendly fire is a concern and if a character were to die it would be forever (Unless it's you, or if they come back as something else like being reanimated).

The combat AI is being given proper behaviour for both single and group battles, so I would imagine the AI companion would take your placement in consideration when fighting.

Top off on top of that the overall NPC behavior where each character in the world has agency where they have their own goals that drive them and you get companions that aren't tied to you at the hip. You have to persuade them to follow you and if you do something that doesn't fall in line with their goals they won't stick to you forever because you clicked the hige button.

Thanks Fawz for digging those quotes up. I really like they way they are thinking. Makes sense that you might find some NPCs who have the same goals as you say killing a local troll so you all head out to accomplish this. It almost makes you have to act like a party member not just a tyrant leader. Don't run up behind the huge fighter with the maul and expect not to get hit by an erant swing and then really don't get mad at him! Your the dumba$$ who got in the way. 8)
Tomorrow still the day we get to play around in a make shift underworld?? Need to stock up on pop/beer/chips !!!!

 

[Fawz]

Tomorrow still the day we get to play around in a make shift underworld?? Need to stock up on pop/beer/chips !!!!

The devs have been working hard on trying to get the Alpha build available for Friday, but technical issues have caused a couple days of anticipated delay. This isn't minor bugs or issues that could be brushed off, but API related issues that would cause a large amount of people's set-ups to not even run the game. Very legitimate concerns that merits a few days of extra waiting time, which the community seems to also believe is a valid cause for extended delay.

Here's the official word from the devs:

We're really trying our absolute best but unfortunately we've had some unexpected and upsetting compatibility issues. AMD OpenGL is riddled with problems, some of which made the game unplayable. I just last night found a workaround to fix the last of the serious ones but I still need to fully implement the solution. I've wasted a lot of time with unsuccessfully trying to find some way to stop these problems from surfacing. We have over twelve hundred alpha backers, more than 40% need to be able run it! We had a go at getting it working on Intel graphics, it's doubtful they have the performance to run the game but it's worth a try. So far we've only managed to produce a blank screen on those and even that was a challenge.

We've fallen behind schedule because of these problems but bar any more unexpected issues it should all be ready in just a few days, tomorrow is unfortunately not possible at this point.

 

[Omenov]

The devs have been working hard on trying to get the Alpha build available for Friday, but technical issues have caused a couple days of anticipated delay. This isn't minor bugs or issues that could be brushed off, but API related issues that would cause a large amount of people's set-ups to not even run the game. Very legitimate concerns that merits a few days of extra waiting time, which the community seems to also believe is a valid cause for extended delay.

Here's the official word from the devs:

Awe...that's ok I understand. If this process was easy we all would be making video games.
I was really looking forward to this for the weekend but I'm sure I have some chores I need to do anyway. 8)

 

[Rod_Lightning]

I was really looking forward to this for the weekend but I'm sure I have some chores I need to do anyway. 8)

Like consuming the excess soda/beer and chips you've bought

 

[Bibidibop]

For skill progression, since it's gradual, the effects could be seemingly small but important. For instance an inept fighter with shield and sword will likely drop the shield (as in lower or swing the shield away from the body, exposing it) as they swing their weapon. Perhaps an improvement could be as simple as no longer dropping the shield during swings.

Another improvement would be consistently lining up the blade of a weapon with the swing of the weapon. If they are unaligned, the weapon can bounce off the target, and either not cut at all or make a poor cut. At a basic skill level, consistent cuts should be more likely, though they may still be difficult.

Those wide, fast swings, like using a baseball bat could be the realm of inept users. Slightly more skilled users could try proper, though possibly sloppy, swings and thrusts which less often place the player character off balance.

 

[Lathspell]

I don't know if there are GoT fans here, but I'm one and a few weeks I saw this fight scene

I don't know nothing...about this kind of fights but I think Yuri Kolokolnikov (styr) and kit harrington (jon snow) did a great job in this combat scene, it looks pretty fluid, natural and fast phased, it looks "real" and also killed the "Slow" heavier weapons cliche...a lot of movies with these kind of combat scene can't achieve realism in a 100%, what I want to ask is a little spoiler about two handed weapon combat. it has a great potential of being the most interesting gameplay in SG, i.e. I would love to being able to do consecutive attacks, fast spinning and swinging combinations like styr in 0:46, maybe as a skill (or combination of skills) or maybe in higher levels??

 

[turtleman155]

sounds interesting except he headbutted an anvil = goodbye front teeth.

 

[Lathspell]

sounds interesting except he headbutted an anvil = goodbye front teeth.

now that you mention it, it seems that helmets are too mainstream in GoT

 

[Zoring]

We need a way to do more types of strikes, as you level up and learn them or get taught them, drunken flailing for the first step, then you learn thrusts, pommel strikes, grapples etc. for a first little combat demo though this game is looking awesome, glad I found it randomly on the internet!

 

[piotras]

Really interested in this:
@Madoc Increased skill level and weapon speed reduce wind up time and heavier weapons increase recovery times especially; other things affect these too.

Is melee combat aimed at making all weapons balanced or will there be clear winners? For example fighting with a slow and short 2-handers (like mauls, axes) versus fast and long weapons (like swords).

Will skills or weapon weight/impact have a role in this? For example a maul breaking through a sword attack and still hitting for a portion of its original attack?