Ranged Weapons?
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Vold
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From what I have read, archery will not be like in ARPGs where you can fight in close combat quarters. I like this approach because I think that melee combat is what shines in this game. They've said that they are going to allow us to swap from bow to melee rather quickly in order to fight with a melee weapon in close combat quarters.
So, archery will probably be more effective as support to other NPCs fighting in close quarter combat, or to kill enemies before that they see you.
So, archery will probably be more effective as support to other NPCs fighting in close quarter combat, or to kill enemies before that they see you.
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J.G. Elmslie
Insider
Oh, dont mistake what I'm saying, for the suggestion that historical archery was stodgy, slow, static or anything of the like.
Its just Lars' stuff is exceptionally misrepresentative.
his claims for "discovering" stuff are universally condemned as nonsense. His shooting is with a very light bow, no power behind it, and that often only half-drawn. Against even a textile armoured opponent, that's like throwing toothpicks at them.
Real archery in formation in war was static, but other than that, you had all the mobility - horseback archers, and so on, its just a little bit slower to draw, its more intended for longer ranges (you dont fight with a bow at 3 feet from a target), and little details like that.
My main thing I wanted to emphasise is he's not particularly honest about history, or his sources, in the interests of self-promotion.
there's a fairly good response here:
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I'm personally looking forward to archery a lot. But I want it to feel physical. The creak of a powerful bow, I want to see my character draw the bow, leaning forward as its drawn, a powerful stance. I want to see them use their back muscles and shoulders, like its an effort to draw a powerful bow. I dont want it to be some sort of trick-shooting Legolas leaping around machine-gunning arrows with one instant draw of the arm, and nothing more
I want it to be powerful, visceral. I want to have arrows or bolts sink into the target with a thud, to feel like there's real force behind it.
and sadly, what Lars does... that doesn't capture that feel.
Its just Lars' stuff is exceptionally misrepresentative.
his claims for "discovering" stuff are universally condemned as nonsense. His shooting is with a very light bow, no power behind it, and that often only half-drawn. Against even a textile armoured opponent, that's like throwing toothpicks at them.
Real archery in formation in war was static, but other than that, you had all the mobility - horseback archers, and so on, its just a little bit slower to draw, its more intended for longer ranges (you dont fight with a bow at 3 feet from a target), and little details like that.
My main thing I wanted to emphasise is he's not particularly honest about history, or his sources, in the interests of self-promotion.
there's a fairly good response here:
---
I'm personally looking forward to archery a lot. But I want it to feel physical. The creak of a powerful bow, I want to see my character draw the bow, leaning forward as its drawn, a powerful stance. I want to see them use their back muscles and shoulders, like its an effort to draw a powerful bow. I dont want it to be some sort of trick-shooting Legolas leaping around machine-gunning arrows with one instant draw of the arm, and nothing more
I want it to be powerful, visceral. I want to have arrows or bolts sink into the target with a thud, to feel like there's real force behind it.
and sadly, what Lars does... that doesn't capture that feel.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
Conversely, what I would really like to see, isnt archery.
the three things I'd like to see are:
Slings. they're horribly under-represented in games, but they were deadly, and rather fun to use.
Crossbows.
Medieval crossbows are *beautiful* things.
they're often decorated in black and white horn and bone, and it looks amazing.
I've been fortunate enough to hold real, original 14th and 15th century crossbows, and they are amazing weapons. I need to make one, someday.
and the third thing is guns.
Not a rifle, not a pistol, but what was called an Arquebus. A very slow-firing, powerful muzzle-loading weapon.
I dont get a "medieval" vibe from Exanima. I personally feel its more 16th C the Renaissance - two-handed swords, later plate armour designs, swordsmen (and women) with single-handed swords and round buckler shield - Swashbucklers. Those details, and many others really say to me this is a world that's just coming out of a medieval age.
And in that context, I'd love for the arquebus, an up-and coming technology that's powerful, a threat to armour, but at the same time, needs much more infrastructure to use, because of the need for powder, which limits its use... as well as of course being pretty much a one-shot item. I'd love for it to have the player have to select their powder, then select their ball, then select their ramrod,clicking each one in turn to load an arquebus, so its very much something for the slow, tactical player, as well as the melee combat of the action types.
(also, imagine in-game, the flash lighting up a long corridor, the echoing bang of it going off, and the cloud of smoke obscuring your view.... and then you see your target, coming out of the smoke, because you missed. That could be brilliant. and again, its something you dont see very often.
the three things I'd like to see are:
Slings. they're horribly under-represented in games, but they were deadly, and rather fun to use.
Crossbows.
Medieval crossbows are *beautiful* things.
they're often decorated in black and white horn and bone, and it looks amazing.
I've been fortunate enough to hold real, original 14th and 15th century crossbows, and they are amazing weapons. I need to make one, someday.
and the third thing is guns.
Not a rifle, not a pistol, but what was called an Arquebus. A very slow-firing, powerful muzzle-loading weapon.
I dont get a "medieval" vibe from Exanima. I personally feel its more 16th C the Renaissance - two-handed swords, later plate armour designs, swordsmen (and women) with single-handed swords and round buckler shield - Swashbucklers. Those details, and many others really say to me this is a world that's just coming out of a medieval age.
And in that context, I'd love for the arquebus, an up-and coming technology that's powerful, a threat to armour, but at the same time, needs much more infrastructure to use, because of the need for powder, which limits its use... as well as of course being pretty much a one-shot item. I'd love for it to have the player have to select their powder, then select their ball, then select their ramrod,clicking each one in turn to load an arquebus, so its very much something for the slow, tactical player, as well as the melee combat of the action types.
(also, imagine in-game, the flash lighting up a long corridor, the echoing bang of it going off, and the cloud of smoke obscuring your view.... and then you see your target, coming out of the smoke, because you missed. That could be brilliant. and again, its something you dont see very often.
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Guy
Member
LOL! You had me till guns.
I am not a Lars fanboy, and I apologize if I am coming off as such, but as long as you have the punch to penetrate solidly, all extra velocity used exclusively to gain distance beyond the target is useless, which is why the creaking powerful long bow of English (Welsh?) fame is not the only option in a setting requiring less than max range. A quicker firing lighter bow would be of use as much, abeit in different ways, than the traditional long bow.
I guess I just hate to see the aspect of possible archery limited to secondary usage limited by preconceived notions of the archer class. Legoas as opposed to Bard. Hey, there is going to be magic, why do we have to be bound to traditional archery roles...lol.
BTW, that is a beautiful arquebus, and I love the way you would load it. Is that match lock, or does it use a different ignition type? Beautiful....
I am not a Lars fanboy, and I apologize if I am coming off as such, but as long as you have the punch to penetrate solidly, all extra velocity used exclusively to gain distance beyond the target is useless, which is why the creaking powerful long bow of English (Welsh?) fame is not the only option in a setting requiring less than max range. A quicker firing lighter bow would be of use as much, abeit in different ways, than the traditional long bow.
I guess I just hate to see the aspect of possible archery limited to secondary usage limited by preconceived notions of the archer class. Legoas as opposed to Bard. Hey, there is going to be magic, why do we have to be bound to traditional archery roles...lol.
BTW, that is a beautiful arquebus, and I love the way you would load it. Is that match lock, or does it use a different ignition type? Beautiful....
fetidshambler
Member
This would be awesome but you could throw any object including weapons and mundane things like bottles, and you can like put skill points into a "throwing" tree or something. I look forward to things like bows and maybe crossbows? I really hope ranged and the thaumaturge things don't require far less skill than melee combat.
Hedgehog-of-Fog
Member
I like the idea of throwing all the things at hand.
But it is much easier to throw a bottle than - for example - stool, plus it depends on the strength of man of course.
I am indifferent to the bows, but it would be nice to do their varieties - longbow, composite bow, and so on.
As for any "bound" or "ethereal" bow - it seems to me nonsense, since it is only the trappings of a classic "magical arrows" (caster creates point circuit, in which the power flows, and gives it direction - so what is ethereal bows do? The same thing).
I also saw somewhere a good idea of "runeguns" (technomagical analogues of firearms). However, I do not know how it would fit into the overall picture of medieval with weak magic which we see in Exanima/Sui Generis?.
Crossbows, arquebuses, blunderbusses - maybe it's a good thing, but there should be a limited ammunition, high demands on the accuracy of the character, substantial costs of time to reloading and preparation weapon before firing, plus a possible misfire in firearms.
So the power of weapons will be balanced by finding or crafting bolts / powder and "unreliability" of weapons (fines on accuracy + misfires).
But it is much easier to throw a bottle than - for example - stool, plus it depends on the strength of man of course.
I am indifferent to the bows, but it would be nice to do their varieties - longbow, composite bow, and so on.
As for any "bound" or "ethereal" bow - it seems to me nonsense, since it is only the trappings of a classic "magical arrows" (caster creates point circuit, in which the power flows, and gives it direction - so what is ethereal bows do? The same thing).
I also saw somewhere a good idea of "runeguns" (technomagical analogues of firearms). However, I do not know how it would fit into the overall picture of medieval with weak magic which we see in Exanima/Sui Generis?.
Crossbows, arquebuses, blunderbusses - maybe it's a good thing, but there should be a limited ammunition, high demands on the accuracy of the character, substantial costs of time to reloading and preparation weapon before firing, plus a possible misfire in firearms.
So the power of weapons will be balanced by finding or crafting bolts / powder and "unreliability" of weapons (fines on accuracy + misfires).
cnileoleman
Insider
1: Can people please stop talking about bows creaking? It hurts my brain. ;_; Bows don't creak.
2: I would absolutely love to pimp out my character with 2 wheel - lock pistols just for the style points. By the by, from my limited research wheel - lock mechanisms had a 1/4 chance of misfire and were on the pricy side, but were faster reloading. Twist mechanism, load barrel, fire. Since the barrel was the only open portion of the weapon, they were also less sensitive to moisture. All of this information could be incorrect, as it is based off of my memories of a report I gave on the subject about 12 years ago.
3: That's assuming firearms are included, which I wouldn't be against. I'd understand if the devs utilize a different tech progression in the world they are building. I'm sure thaumaturgy will keep me entertained either way.
2: I would absolutely love to pimp out my character with 2 wheel - lock pistols just for the style points. By the by, from my limited research wheel - lock mechanisms had a 1/4 chance of misfire and were on the pricy side, but were faster reloading. Twist mechanism, load barrel, fire. Since the barrel was the only open portion of the weapon, they were also less sensitive to moisture. All of this information could be incorrect, as it is based off of my memories of a report I gave on the subject about 12 years ago.
3: That's assuming firearms are included, which I wouldn't be against. I'd understand if the devs utilize a different tech progression in the world they are building. I'm sure thaumaturgy will keep me entertained either way.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
My old yew bow did. then my bow broke. probably because it was creaking...
perhaps "creak" is the wrong word. that noise you get when the arrow's being drawn, and you get a sort of harmonic tone in the bowstring under tension, before the release.
Edit: the other reason for it which I forgot to note is, simply that I'm assuming you're not the only person in the entire world who's learnt to use a ranged weapon. So those little audio clues are there, not for realism, but as warning signs and feedback that the weapon is ready to loose, for you, or that theres a ranged threat, for those that are being done by others.
its the same reason that almost all FPS videogame guns are back to front, with the cartridge ejecting out the left side, past the user's face. Its not for realism, but as a sort of visual indicator that you're firing, to help re-inforce the user interface.
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cnileoleman
Insider
Sorry if I got a little too rowdy there.My old yew bow did. then my bow broke. probably because it was creaking...
perhaps "creak" is the wrong word. that noise you get when the arrow's being drawn, and you get a sort of harmonic tone in the bowstring under tension, before the release.
Edit: the other reason for it which I forgot to note is, simply that I'm assuming you're not the only person in the entire world who's learnt to use a ranged weapon. So those little audio clues are there, not for realism, but as warning signs and feedback that the weapon is ready to loose, for you, or that theres a ranged threat, for those that are being done by others.
its the same reason that almost all FPS videogame guns are back to front, with the cartridge ejecting out the left side, past the user's face. Its not for realism, but as a sort of visual indicator that you're firing, to help re-inforce the user interface.
I do think that sound design will be very important where it comes to bows, mostly because I'm not sure how much the devs would be able to do visually. Like you mentioned, the rasp of the arrow against wood would do a lot tone-wise. I also think the sound the string makes when released could go a long way in making a connection, that this bow is yours. For instance, I took part in the traditional portion of the archery league here, and every bow had a unique sound. (Even though most of them made their own self-bows) My recurve has a nice thrumm, but there were thwacks, bmms, and even a few kmmms. Given the way we can select our character's voice, I wouldn't be surprised if bows were each given a (nearly) unique sound.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
@cnileoleman that I think would be a great way to really emphasise the difference between bows... different audio for different groups of weapons really helps to show differences in more than just numbers or the likes - ideally, I'd love to have the blunter swords have more of a "thwack", while sharper ones make more of a "swish" as they hit, for the same reasons.
Not sure how practical it'll be to assign audio to specific weapons though.
Not sure how practical it'll be to assign audio to specific weapons though.
cnileoleman
Insider
[quote="J.G. Elmslie, post: 30598, member: 3624 Not sure how practical it'll be to assign audio to specific weapons though.[/quote]
I was about to say something about how easy it would be and remembered I have absolutely zero coding knowledge.
Edit: Noooooo I messed up the quote! Whatever. People will just need to live with my ineptness.
I was about to say something about how easy it would be and remembered I have absolutely zero coding knowledge.
Edit: Noooooo I messed up the quote!
Whatever. People will just need to live with my ineptness.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
It shouldnt be too difficult: Weapon ID#, audio ID# which makes a call to a specific set. Put a different set in, different sound.
but the reality is, its never that simple.
but the reality is, its never that simple.
NachoDawg
Member
Madoc has talked a lot about have, i dont quite remember the term, generated armor/clothes, so that each armor peice would cover a bit differently, or look different based on, for example, which blacksmith made it. all dynamically generated by the computer. Assigning a sound to weapons sounds to me as a small deal when they already have this system planned. Though I'm just speaking as a javascript-programmer.
Also, I do support some trick-shooting like adding thaumic powers to projectiles, or shooting a 60 pound bow faster than real life at higher character levels/with thaumic powers. It's a game. The end-part of a playthrough should feel like special achievement. If i play as a rouge then I want to feel just as rewarded for my hours as someone who played as a mage or warrior! Purely from a game design perspective
Also, I do support some trick-shooting like adding thaumic powers to projectiles, or shooting a 60 pound bow faster than real life at higher character levels/with thaumic powers. It's a game. The end-part of a playthrough should feel like special achievement. If i play as a rouge then I want to feel just as rewarded for my hours as someone who played as a mage or warrior! Purely from a game design perspective
Sir NotABot
Member
I'm a huge fan of sniping, so I don't care as long as it's user-skill based, and you're rewarded for accuracy. I.e, the better you aim the cursor, the more damage you do. You guys have been hashing this out for a year and a half! I'd love to see some ranged weapons in the next patch.
puksus
Member
Damage should be determined on where you hit, not by how long did you aim. Or else it would break the whole system and make game closer to usual <bad> projects we almost always see.
Also i think that aiming time must mostly depend on the PLAYER's experience, not his in-game skills. So, if you play the game very well, you would be able to hit with almost no aiming and very low in-game skills, but if you are a novice but have full skill, you still would have a very good chance to miss even after long aiming.
So, in-game skills should be something small that can give you benefits ONLY when your personal skill matches the in-game skill level you have.
IMHO
EDIT
Forgot to say that Damage shouldn't depend on skill at all exept bows.
Master bowmen can stretch the bowstring further.
Also would like to see something like a ring that you wear on your thumb that helps to stretch the bow better.
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Sir NotABot
Member
I really don't understand how you got that from my post. I said "the better you aim the cursor," not how long. I imagine you'd draw the bow with a click and hold, then release when you release the mouse button (or re-mapped keyboard key). Damage could be based on how close to the center of torso you hit. Because of the isometric nature of the game, aiming vertically is difficult or even impossible if the camera is looking straight down. Crossbows were a game changer historically, with not as much skill required. I think that's going to be pretty much automatically reflected in the fact that you only need to click to shoot, not hold to draw it back like a bow. Hopefully the trade off will be that you can shoot way more frequently with the bow.
This was my point, "as long as it's user-skill based." I'd like the damage to be a reflection of how well you use the mouse: aiming and accounting for flight travel time and movement of the enemy, just like the melee is. The point system could help in other ways, like how fast you can reload.
Vold
Insider
I've always wanted this game to have throwing weapons, although I have no idea how historically accurate are they. I only have seen Franciscas (throwing axes), but that's it. So, anyone knows if throwing knives were ever used? Also, under what circumstances? Battlefield? And who used them?
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