Alpha 0.6 Armor

Bullethead

Member
First off, nifty new quality modifiers. I started a new game this evening and found (as random chest loot) a "heavy waistcoat", something I'd never seen before. It's actually better in most regards than the leather vest you can find lying around on Level 1.

06 Nifty Starter Stuff.jpg

And all sorts of other things with varying quality. No more "I already have one of those" momemts. Yay.

But 0.6 also introduces encumbrance for armor. If you look at the above pic, you'll see that some wearable items that give you some protection don't have any encumbrance value. Examples are basic shirts and pants, tunics, belts, etc. So does this mean that you can stack however many of such things as the game allows and have no penalty?
 
How so do you mean, regarding encumbrance?

You can't stack more than one type of armour/clothes type, so it just comes down to light clothing- no restrictions, and heavier armour- more restriction.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
I´m not quite getting your point, bullet. As you probably know, each piece of clothing is confined to a certain layer, and two pieces of clothing which occupy the same layer replace each other. So you can certainly not stack as many shirts as you like ontop of each other and become armored with no penalty^^

And the encumbrance of basic clothes is rightfully zero; as a shirt or a pair of pants don´t weigh much and should not limit your movement at all (unless they´re serverly too small).
 

Dorag

Member
How so do you mean, regarding encumbrance?

You can't stack more than one type of armour/clothes type, so it just comes down to light clothing- no restrictions, and heavier armour- more restriction.
you can certainly not stack as many shirts as you like ontop of each other and become armored with no penalty^^
He might have meant that you could "stack" these basic clothing items such as basic belt basic shirt basic tunic that have no encumbrance value and get absolutely no encumbrance but still be armored and receive the armor value effects, if that's what you were asking bullet then I believe that yes, you could be wearing some basic clothing with no encumbrance, after all think of it from a peasant's point of view, they walk around with some basic cloth shirt and maybe a leather tunic if you're a hunter but it doesn't restrict their movement so the developers didn't put encumbrance values on those, so then it is possible to have these minimal amounts of armor using every day lighter items without getting encumbered, though it might change on Madoc and the team's accord soon.

I think of encumbrance as more of a "Does this item restrict or limit my movements in any way" rather than "Does this item weight anything at all", and well, I guess a shirt wouldn't do that right? xD
 

Greenbrog

Insider
Remember everything has weight, and that will be held "true" for everything. Encumbrance is a "penalty" assessed for wearing restrictive clothing/armour. You can counter the effect of encumbrance with the skills in the armour tree. You can wear as much armour as you want with no encumbrance penalty and have no penalty, but it still has weight. Hence why being fully armoured up, and fully plated with all the skills you still are slower, you just won't have all the penalty.
 

Bullethead

Member
He might have meant that you could "stack" these basic clothing items such as basic belt basic shirt basic tunic that have no encumbrance value and get absolutely no encumbrance but still be armored and receive the armor value effects, if that's what you were asking bullet then I believe that yes, you could be wearing some basic clothing with no encumbrance,
Yeah, that's basically what I was saying. From what I can tell, you can have up to 4 main layers on your torso. Working outwards from your skin, they are occupied by the following types of items:
  1. Undergarment layer: cloth shirt, gambeson
  2. Tunic layer: all tunics
  3. Metal layer: Chain, laminate, and plate pieces
  4. Tabard layer: Waistcoats, coats, and leather vests (and probably tabards if those are in the game)
There's also a layer for belts only, but I can't remember if it goes between 1 & 2 or 2 & 3.

Anyway, I've yet to find a tunic that has any encumbrance value, but I've found several that have reasonably good protection values (for tunics), especially given their coverage. And I haven't yet found anything else that goes on the same layer as tunics., whereas shirts are replaced by gambesons. So it seems to me that perhaps tunics should have some encumbrance. Otherwise, they're free protection. Not much, but every little bit helps.

Remember everything has weight, and that will be held "true" for everything..
Are you sure that everything has weight right now? After all, only weapons have any indicator of how much they weigh, and that only seems to affect how hard they hit, not how much you can carry.
 

-Tim-

Insider
Are you sure that everything has weight right now? After all, only weapons have any indicator of how much they weigh, and that only seems to affect how hard they hit, not how much you can carry.
This discussion confuses me a little because there's no clear distinction made between weight, encumbrance and movement speed. I prefer Doraq's idea of encumbrance as restriction of movement. You could see 'weight' as the actual weight in-game objects would have in real life, regardless whether this weight has been appropriately implemented in the game or not.

To add some data, wearing clothing with no encumbrance (either through skills or because of wearing items with no encumbrance stat) does not seem to slow down your run speed as compared to naked. This might imply that only encumbrance (as shown in the inventory window) slows you down, and mere 'weight' without encumbrance doesn't:


Edit: to clarify; the character on the right is wearing clothing with encumbrance, but his actual encumbrance is 0 as a result of his learned armour skills.
 
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konggary

Member
What I've noticed is that while wearing very heavy armor, after upgrading my armor skill so that I am unencumbered, I swing significantly faster than when I had a few dots of encumberance.

This kinda brings up the point of strength: will it be a skill? Will the skinny character be able to carry the same as the 7' lump of meat character? Can you train strength? Maybe the character customization screen also acts as a difficulty screen...
 

-Tim-

Insider
What I've noticed is that while wearing very heavy armor, after upgrading my armor skill so that I am unencumbered, I swing significantly faster than when I had a few dots of encumberance.
Do you mean you can do more attacks per second or do your arms and weapon actually move faster? If you mean the latter, it seems likely to be true, but so far I've found this really hard to test and prove.

Edit: Ran some tests and used my leet:rolleyes: Sony Vegas skills to show proof. My interpretation is that encumbrance does not affect swing speed (Edit: I may well be wrong):
At some point the swings start to diverge a little bit, but I attribute this to the slightly random swing height and the effects this has on momentum.

Edit 2: According to our Divine Creator, it's quite a bit more complicated than this and my conclusion was premature. Different, faster weapons should show different results. More testing to be done.

Edit 3: More testing done with (probably) the fastest one-handed sword in the game. This time, the difference encumbrance makes is huge.

Conclusion: Encumbrance does effect swing speed and attack speed. Attacks with heavier weapons are less effected by encumbrance than attacks with lighter weapons. E.g.: high encumbrance barely effects attack speed with the sledgehammer, but it drastically slows attack speed with a shortsword.
 
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Greenbrog

Insider
Ah. You set strength at character creation And yes you get 4 layers on you chest.
Undershirt
Chain Layer
Overshirt (includes coats)
Outer Layer (this is many things including but not limited to leather vests and plate)

The "Good" over shirt layer does have encumbrance. and it still falls short of an exceptional gambeson. The exceptional gambeson and cloth layer also have encumbrance. Why are you arguing for more encumbrance. You can already accumulate more encumbrance than skills will allow you to negate. In maxxed out defensive gear right now, excluding heavy full plate helm or a heavy pair of plate gloves (not sure these even weight more than the full plate set from level 4, doubtful) or a heavy set of chain coif, long sleeve shirt and plants (against I don't think they actually have an encumbrance penalty) you can accumulate 10 dots of encumbrance (20 from gear/2) and you can mitigate 9 dots, AND it all still has weight. Even with the skills its still very noticeable the influence on you movement. The encumbrance seems fine exactly how it is.

Everything has weight.... You inventory is a bag of holding ATM. But anything in the "real" world has mass. You armour on your character has mass and will act accordingly.
 

Holy.Death

Insider
Anyway, I've yet to find a tunic that has any encumbrance value, but I've found several that have reasonably good protection values (for tunics), especially given their coverage. And I haven't yet found anything else that goes on the same layer as tunics., whereas shirts are replaced by gambesons. So it seems to me that perhaps tunics should have some encumbrance. Otherwise, they're free protection. Not much, but every little bit helps.
But why is that a problem?

You will run into armors that offer significantly better protection at cost of encumbrance and for some characters - two handed, for example - having decent protection could be more beneficial than having less encumbrance at cost of protection, because they'll be more likely to be hit than characters who utilize shield build.

Forcing encumbrance on EVERYTHING will only result in people taking skills to reduce encumbrance JUST to be able to wear ANYTHING that offers some protection without having significant penalties.

I think system is fine as is.
 

Dorag

Member
you can mitigate 9 dots, AND it all still has weight. Even with the skills its still very noticeable the influence on you movement. The encumbrance seems fine exactly how it is.

Everything has weight.... You inventory is a bag of holding ATM. But anything in the "real" world has mass. You armour on your character has mass and will act accordingly.
That's very nice, for the purpose of simulating real objects everything in Madoc's engine has weight and works on values comparable to the real world so it does have weight, and on top of that you get encumbrance which tells you if this piece of equipment limits you, that being said the "Hidden" weight value of a sledge hammer when you swing it still affects your swing movement speed and force (Along with some other stats), and when people said that they feel heavier or clunkier in full heavy armor in the expert arena in previous versions for example, they were right.

So it further confirms my point and makes it very clear that weight=/=encumbrance, yet it still exists in the game and will affect you either way when you wear heavy armor regardless of your armor skills which is ofcourse very realistic, also Tim I really enjoyed your experiments , you got work well done :D
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
As far as I understand, "encumbrance" is the sum of everything which may affect your movement while wearing something, including weight, stiffness, fit, heat buildup and so on. So when your character is trained well enough he can wear encumbering items but still move as well as he would if he was naked.


Though he may be heavier over all.


If my theory was true, I´d think the system would be fine as it is.
 
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Greenbrog

Insider
Encumbrance is a penalty to movement assessed on top of the mass of the object, it is not accounting for the weight of the object and reducing encumbrance only reduced encumbrance, it doesn't effect the weight.
 

Bullethead

Member
I think we're running into a language and translation issue when it comes to "weight" and "encumbrance". Or maybe it's just that both factors are so interrelated that it's hard to draw a line between them. So to try to clarify what I mean, I'll explain how I use the terms "weight" and "encumbrance" when it comes to clothing/armor. My meanings for these words are probably different from what Madoc and most other people use, but by making these differences obvious maybe we can all communicate better. So....

To me, "encumbrance" means losing range of motion in your joints, losing fine control of movements, losing tactile feedback. IOW, it's a control issue. You can still move easily within the range limits imposed by the encumbrance, but you're clumsy and you have limited range of motion. Depending on what you're wearing, you can be heavily encumbered despite your gear being very low-weight. For example, heavy gloves (or, worse, mittens) don't weigh enough to matter and still let you wiggle your fingers at high speed, but destroy most of your manual dexterity through entombing your fingers in thick padding.

OTOH, to me, weight (or, more correctly, mass), as long as it's within your strength to move/carry relatively easily, has most of its effect on the acceleration and maximum velocity of your motions. If it's really too heavy to move/carry easily, then it largely restricts and might even prevent movement at all. The more massive something is, the harder you have to work to overcome its inertia to get it moving at all, and the harder you then have to work to stop it or change its direction of motion. Therefore, for a person with a given amount of strength, a heavier weapon would have more delay between clicking to attack and the attack starting, and would also move slower than a lighter weapon used by the same person. The slower top speed is due to knowing you have to stop the thing and recover to a guard position, and you don't want to get it going faster than you can easily stop quickly. Same with wearing armor; heavier armor means slower reactions to start moving in any direction and then a lower top speed so you can stop and/or maneuver in a timely manner.

So, as I use the terms, mass can neither be created nor destroyed, so you're stuck with that and the only way to deal with it is to have higher strength. This is determined at character creation and subsequent time in the gym. But encumbrance is more of a comfort thing. It has an irreducible minimum due to the bulkiness and inflexibility of your gear independent of its weight, but that minimum can only be obtained by properly wearing the gear. If you know how to adjust the straps or whatever, you can mange to be less encumbered than somebody else in the same gear who lacks that knowledge. This is where skill would come in.

So, consider a person in plate armor. The armor is designed to offer essentially the full range of motion with minimal resistance to movement, but that only happens if you're wearing it correctly (and it's sized to fit you). If you lack armor skill, you'd have less range of motion, less precise control over your attacks and parries, etc. And the weaker you are, the slower you move/attack/parry regardless of whether you have armor skill or not.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
Yeah, that's pretty much how we see encumbrance working, which is why something like gloves have encumbrance and a tunic does not. Generally we consider stiffness and how constricting something is over how heavy it is, but that also plays a factor.

Encumbrance does change animations rather than just speed them up or slow them down. You might notice that when running while encumbered your leg movements appear more stiff. Dashing and general leg agility in combat are quite severely affected, also generally upper body movement and how quickly you're able to turn. Attacking is affected, but mainly with weapons that would otherwise be quick, with something like a maul you won't notice much difference. Again it's not the velocity that's affected as such but rather how easily you raise your arm to strike, how quickly the strike accellerates and how you recover from the motion.
 

-Tim-

Insider
Yeah, that's pretty much how we see encumbrance working, which is why something like gloves have encumbrance and a tunic does not. Generally we consider stiffness and how constricting something is over how heavy it is, but that also plays a factor.

Encumbrance does change animations rather than just speed them up or slow them down. You might notice that when running while encumbered your leg movements appear more stiff. Dashing and general leg agility in combat are quite severely affected, also generally upper body movement and how quickly you're able to turn. Attacking is affected, but mainly with weapons that would otherwise be quick, with something like a maul you won't notice much difference. Again it's not the velocity that's affected as such but rather how easily you raise your arm to strike, how quickly the strike accellerates and how you recover from the motion.
Do item weight (weight of armour you're wearing) and strength (muscle in character creation) also affect animations and movement, aside from encumbrance?
 
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