Combat Animations and Levelling

[Rob]

Hi,
Watching the promo video (update 5) we can see the character stumbling around like a drunk, with a pair of swords that are clearly too heavy for our puny little man (indeed, the effect of weapon weight was clearly demonstrated in update 6).

I think this is awesome. This, to me, implicitly says that the man is "Inept" at wielding two swords, and "Inept" at fighting (using the same terminology as the major expertise levels).

Of course, it's already been stated that a pro-animator will be brought onto the team in future, so what we're seeing now isn't anything like the final product. Understood. My question is this: in the final game, is it intended for an Inept fighter to still stubble around semi-uselessly, improving as he/she gains levels, until finally becoming a Master, thus moving with powerful cat-like grace, like Geralt of Rivia? That's been my interpretation so far, but it hasn't been explicitly said as far as I'm aware, so I thought I'd clarify. Will increasing the expertise level increase the character's stability and determinism of movements? Presumably the character's initial physique will affect this also.

Also, in the update 6 video, Kieran says that you hold the left mouse button to swing. Presumably, the "swing" is the product of some predefined animation/movement combined with environmental factors, creating a unique but semi-deterministic movement. Great. Love it! However, will it be possible to choose from a variety of "preferred" attack types, that you can swap and change by locking to your left mouse button? Or, in addition, perhaps set different attack types to different keyboard keys, for a more complex combat stream? For example, for a sword, you could have: slash, low swing, high swing, thrust, etc. And maybe you could just start off with one attack type for each weapon, and unlock more complex or effective attack types as you level up that weapon skill... it seems that this would be a relatively easy and appropriate thing to do in the context of Sui Generis - is anything like this intended???

Many thanks!

 

[Madoc]

We definitely want skill, item qualities (i.e. how well balanced a weapon is) and other factors to interact with animations via the physics. This doesn't just concern weapons but also shields and armours. The armour skill is largely there to counter the detrimental effects of wearing a lot of heavy gear.

We have considered more complex control systems many times but the combat is already fun and very skillful as it is. Our intention is to keep the controls simple so that you can focus on how you move and swing rather than what key you press. Many people don't like fiddly control systems, myself included. That said we do plan to have more attacks and special moves. For example we want thrust or other targeted attacks to be performed by clicking and then holding the mouse button down while aiming with the cursor.

Combat and character movement in general still have a long way to go, what we've done so far is build the foundations for the animation system and character physics.

 

[hredthel]

However, will it be possible to choose from a variety of "preferred" attack types, that you can swap and change by locking to your left mouse button? Or, in addition, perhaps set different attack types to different keyboard keys, for a more complex combat stream?
Many thanks!

That would give us the opportunity to improvise a better strategy in combat, and the concept doesn't seem like it would add too much button mashing since you already have point-and-click combat happening fluidly. It would give players the chance to defeat opponents that would otherwise outmatch them, don't you think?

EDIT:

@Madoc
I am excited to see what kind of combat is on its way! I do hope to see at least a small set of choices for attacks and parries. The combat looks so fluid!

 

[Rob]

Brilliant, thanks for replying! It's good to know that you're considering various options. I personally don't like fiddly control systems either, although I think it's important that combat doesn't get tired with time, and it's extensible enough to allow great variety. However, you have said that combat is already fun and skillful! Ultimately, no-one knows better than you what's best, because you're the one who gets to play around with it on a day-to-day basis, and it's your vision. Looking forward to the future testing phases!

 

[BlackCore]

Watching the promo video (update 5) we can see the character stumbling around like a drunk, with a pair of swords that are clearly too heavy for our puny little man (indeed, the effect of weapon weight was clearly demonstrated in update 6).

I think this is awesome. This, to me, implicitly says that the man is "Inept" at wielding two swords, and "Inept" at fighting (using the same terminology as the major expertise levels).

Of course, it's already been stated that a pro-animator will be brought onto the team in future, so what we're seeing now isn't anything like the final product. Understood. My question is this: in the final game, is it intended for an Inept fighter to still stubble around semi-uselessly, improving as he/she gains levels, until finally becoming a Master, thus moving with powerful cat-like grace, like Geralt of Rivia? That's been my interpretation so far, but it hasn't been explicitly said as far as I'm aware, so I thought I'd clarify. Will increasing the expertise level increase the character's stability and determinism of movements? Presumably the character's initial physique will affect this also.

I agree with this, low combat exp or weapon skills should make you stumble, throw you off balance and even self inflect damage. More exp will greatly improve weapon control and perhaps allow for heavier swords control or bonuses to that weapon type.

 

[Komuflage]

Sorry for resurrecting a "dead" thread, but I thought it would be better than to start a whole new one.

Now since I haven't played the game myself I can only speculate how combat will work/be.
However the thing I'm worried/concerned about it the fact that blocking, parrying is automatic.
I understand that if something is hitting your shield it will count as a block (Ofc a lot of other factors will determine the outcome, like force of the blow, angle, etc etc) and that to me seams really good.

I hate games where my character take a hit, even if I can clearly see that the enemy hit my shield, just because I weren't holding down the "block button"
But what I wonder is if there will be a way for me to to raise my shield (Since if I'm going to make a swing in a wide arch I want my shield lowered, but if I'm going for a thrust, I might want to raise my shield)

Also if parrying is automatic, will it be impossible to kill a "high level" enemy with a new character, just because my parrying skill is to low?


One game that I really love and played for over 1k/H even if it's really linear is Demon's souls, and the reason for that is because the combat is very skilful, which makes it competently possible to beat the game at level one, or complete it without dying once (or both, if you're skilled enough) if you know what you're doing. And the fact that this is possible is why I love the game so much, and it also makes it possible to increase the difficulty, even if there isn't a official way to increase it (Like choosing, difficulty setting)
And you can create challenges for yourself; complete it at lvl 1 or without dying, (as I already mentioned) without a shield which challenges your parry skill, without using any magic, play the levels in a specific order or whatever you come up with.

So anyway, I understand that parrying will still require skill, in the matter of positioning etc. But my question is; Will it be possible to kill a high level foe (I understand it wont be levels but hopefully you understand what I mean) with a new character, If I'm skilled enough?

 

[Infidel]

Will it be possible to kill a high level foe (I understand it wont be levels but hopefully you understand what I mean) with a new character, If I'm skilled enough?

I'd love to know the answer to this also.

 

[TigerBunnyHeart]

I was wondering the samething it what happen if when the player actually have an unbalanced powers and balanced weapon?

 

[Ickorus]

I'd suggest going down the route 'The Witcher' took in regards to attacks, that is, having a key you press to switch your fighting style, this creates much more versatility and strategy to fights without bogging the player down with complex controls.

The fighting styles in question were:

Heavy - Effective against armored opponents.
Quick - Effective against unarmored opponents.
Group - Effective against groups of enemies.

Similar was mentioned earlier in this thread but I'm unsure whether what I'm suggesting is the same thing, I gathered from that post that you'd have to hold down a button to perform a different type of attack where the method I've suggested would be simply clicking the button and having your fighting style changed until you click another button to change the fighting style to something else.

 

[Komuflage]

I'd suggest going down the route 'The Witcher' took in regards to attacks, that is, having a key you press to switch your fighting style, this creates much more versatility and strategy to fights without bogging the player down with complex controls.

The fighting styles in question were:

Heavy - Effective against armored opponents.
Quick - Effective against unarmored opponents.
Group - Effective against groups of enemies.

Similar was mentioned earlier in this thread but I'm unsure whether what I'm suggesting is the same thing, I gathered from that post that you'd have to hold down a button to perform a different type of attack where the method I've suggested would be simply clicking the button and having your fighting style changed until you click another button to change the fighting style to something else.

Well, wouldn't it be quit boring to just press 1-3 before a fight, depending on the enemy(s) and then just hold LMB?

Personally I didn't like the combat I the witcher, there were no strategy, skill or whatever, you just picked a predefine fighting style, pressed LMB, waited for a animation to play, and by the end, you pressed it again, and the same animation would play but only faster.

Doesn't really feel that immersive.

Also, I rather have as much complexity as possible.

 

[Rob]

Well, wouldn't it be quit boring to just press 1-3 before a fight, depending on the enemy(s) and then just hold LMB?

I think that combat in Sui Generis is going to feel different to anything we've experienced before. It almost certainly will not be as simple as "hold LMB". I can imagine there will be a lot of skill and tension involved in choosing whether to block or attack, and in which direction, as well as simultaneously moving into strategic positions. Also, strategies will undoubtedly be different depending on what enemies/weapons you're facing. So I'm not worried about combat being shallow or tired.

That said, like Ickorus, I think that the ability to alter fighting styles would make a very nice addition and allow further depth to combat. Such fighting styles could be unlockable skills/talents as you level up or gain experience (or using whatever mechanics Sui Generis will use). But this has all already been discussed, I feel...

 

[Ickorus]

Well, wouldn't it be quit boring to just press 1-3 before a fight, depending on the enemy(s) and then just hold LMB?

Personally I didn't like the combat I the witcher, there were no strategy, skill or whatever, you just picked a predefine fighting style, pressed LMB, waited for a animation to play, and by the end, you pressed it again, and the same animation would play but only faster.

Doesn't really feel that immersive.

Also, I rather have as much complexity as possible.

I can understand where you're coming from though I'm not sure you entirely understood what I'm trying to say*, at the moment when holding down the LMB the game selects between one of a variety of different combat maneuvers to use, what I am suggesting is to expand on that idea by clicking a button to change those combat maneuvers to a different variety of combat maneuvers so for instance the heavy stance would have the player using slower but more powerful attacks on the enemy where the light stance would use faster but less powerful attacks.

Basically what this would allow for is a much deeper combat experience without significantly complicating or altering the system.

To give a very simplified example of how a fight might play out using this sort of combat would be that you might be fighting a heavily armored enemy you might execute a flurry of fast attacks to put him off balance then switch to the heavy stance and get a nice strong hit against him whilst he's off balance.

Of course, if the AI is as good as the devs say he may just let the weak attacks bounce off his armor and slice you in half but I imagine that'd depend on his or her combat prowess which is another reason why I like the thought of this combat system, you'd be able to better adapt to different opponents and they may well be able to better adapt to you.

I do apologise if a lot of what I'm saying has been said before Rob, I simply cannot stop myself when I'm struck with an idea.

* Not your fault, reading through my post I feel I could have stated it better.

 

[Rob]

I do apologise if a lot of what I'm saying has been said before Rob, I simply cannot stop myself when I'm struck with an idea.

Not at all!!! What I meant was that *I* had already talked about that topic before in the forum. I could feel myself waffling about things I've already waffled about, and decided to stop myself.

The forum is for discussing things - if you have a thought Ickorus, then say it!!!

 

[Joe Moore]

To give a very simplified example of how a fight might play out using this sort of combat would be that you might be fighting a heavily armored enemy you might execute a flurry of fast attacks to put him off balance then switch to the heavy stance and get a nice strong hit against him whilst he's off balance.

This sounds like weapon swapping. You start out with a sword and main gauche, do some fancy footwork, and then swap to a two-handed sword.

Otherwise, I think it would just be changing how you use the interface for combat, i.e. no need to click something to change to a stance, just do it. So you would slow down and be more deliberate with your attacks. It really depends on how they implement the combat interface.