Die by the sword

[Parco]

This game reminded me of an old game i used to play long ago, Die by the sword: Limb from limb.
the unique thing about that old game is how freely you can control your weapon, you move it with simply by moving your mouse, and the faster you swing the sword the more dmg it deals, can even cut of limbs.

Would this way of controlling the weapon in SG be a good idea?

here is a gameplay vid for those of you who doesnt know of the game:

 

[Rushakoff]

As much as I have wanted a new game like DBtS I don't know how well that would fit with this game. The isometric view would make swinging with the mouse awkward and if we used the number pad to swing (the way i used to play) we couldn't control the character direction and movement very well at the same time.

There really should be a way to control the vague direction you wish to block and swing though, that is what made die by the sword's physics based combat so much fun. If not, at least the combat in this game will still be completely physics based which is closer than any previous sword fighting game has been able to get since this game so I'm happy.

 

[Komuflage]

Cool idea, but then we'd have to rebind the walk and thaumaturgy button (Minor thing though)

If I can dream some, and build on this idea, here's what I came up with. The Green circle represents where your cursor is when you start Holding down LMB and the Yellow circle represents where you Release the LMB and the line between is simply how you drag the cursor.
So basically in the first example (1) your character would perform a diagonally slash across the chest and the throat, in the second example (2) your character would again perform a diagonally slash across the thigh, trying to decapitate you opponent. And in the third example (3) your character would either do a vertically slash from between the legs to the middle of the chest, or if you hold "Shift" at the same time your character would do a thrust attack into your opponents chest. I think something like this would make the combat truly skilful.

Edit: I recommend you to rename the topic, I myself find this thread very interesting, and I guess a few others do as well, but the name does not make the thread justice ^_^

 

[Cooper Holt]

Cool idea, but then we'd have to rebind the walk and thaumaturgy button (Minor thing though)

If I can dream some, and build on this idea, here's what I came up with. The Green circle represents where your cursor is when you start Holding down LMB and the Yellow circle represents where you Release the LMB and the line between is simply how you drag the cursor.
So basically in the first example (1) your character would perform a diagonally slash across the chest and the throat, in the second example (2) your character would again perform a diagonally slash across the thigh, trying to decapitate you opponent. And in the third example (3) your character would either do a vertically slash from between the legs to the middle of the chest, or if you hold "Shift" at the same time your character would do a thrust attack into your opponents chest. I think something like this would make the combat truly skilful.

Edit: I recommend you to rename the topic, I myself find this thread very interesting, and I guess a few others do as well, but the name does not make the thread justice ^_^

I like the concept, but forward movement (stabs) could be confused with vertical movement.
I like that you have to pull the cursor, but I think there should be a toggle-able option for this if it is implemented.
If it does become part of the game, I think that (for ease of use) there should be primarily stabs (thrust by dragging back/bottom to forward/top), and heavy swings (top-right to bottom-left, top to bottom, etc.)
Try to picture this in your head.


Edit: I didn't thorouhly read the "hold-shift" thing, but I thing that should be the other way around. If you hold shift then it doesn't stab. I think people will be stabbing more than they'll be performing a useless slice against gravity.
Also, how did you get the URL of that picture? :-S
When I right-click on my pictures, it doesn't give me the option to "copy URL"

 

[Komuflage]

I like the concept, but forward movement (stabs) could be confused with vertical movement.
I like that you have to pull the cursor, but I think there should be a toggle-able option for this if it is implemented.
If it does become part of the game, I think that (for ease of use) there should be primarily stabs (thrust by dragging back/bottom to forward/top), and heavy swings (top-right to bottom-left, top to bottom, etc.)
Try to picture this in your head.


Edit: I didn't thorouhly read the "hold-shift" thing, but I thing that should be the other way around. If you hold shift then it doesn't stab. I think people will be stabbing more than they'll be performing a useless slice against gravity.
Also, how did you get the URL of that picture? :-S
When I right-click on my pictures, it doesn't give me the option to "copy URL"

Glad you like the idea ^-^

I think something like this could be really fun, and making combat much more dynamic and IMO really increase the replay value (Good combat system = Replay value, see my post about Demon's Souls, again IMO)
However this means that either we would have to use the right mouse button to move (which can be inconvenient, try kiting when you have to "draw" the attack) or the WASD would be the primary way to move your character, and since W is all ways Forward and not North I guess it would require some getting used to. Even if that's something I wouldn't mind, BM already stated they want quite simple controls, so I doubt something like this will be in the game. But you can all ways dream

Whatever the default attack type is could ofc just be a changeable option in a menu

Any way, I'm using imageshack to get the URLs
http://imageshack.us/
REQUIRES you to create a free account.


Edit: I just read some of the updates again and stumbled across this. "We want a realistic game and even a slight increase in your swing speed or the reach of your weapon can confer a huge advantage in combat. Individual weapons feel different and you have to learn to wield them as a player."

So to ad this thoughts to the concept/idea, I guess if you move your mouse faster, your character will try to swing faster. (ofc skill and strength would determine how fast you actually can swing) And since different weapons have different shapes and lengths, you would have to learn how to use each weapon. for instance a Greatsword might not be able to do the same types of manoeuvrable attacks as a dagger which mean that in order to use a Greatsword efficiently, you need to learn how to "draw" your attacks in a way that works.

I can't really explain this in English so I drew another picture
Basically if you "Draw" the cursor from Green to Yellow, your character would be able to perform that move with a dagger, but if you try with a Greatsword, your character won't be able to perform that manoeuvre and instead he'll go from Green to Blue.
Simply, the Greatsword is to heavy to turn it like the dagger. (And ofc if you do a faster attack, the curve would be straighter)

 

[Cooper Holt]

Glad you like the idea ^-^

I think something like this could be really fun, and making combat much more dynamic and IMO really increase the replay value (Good combat system = Replay value, see my post about Demon's Souls, again IMO)
However this means that either we would have to use the right mouse button to move (which can be inconvenient, try kiting when you have to "draw" the attack) or the WASD would be the primary way to move your character, and since W is all ways Forward and not North I guess it would require some getting used to. Even if that's something I wouldn't mind, BM already stated they want quite simple controls, so I doubt something like this will be in the game. But you can all ways dream

Whatever the default attack type is could ofc just be a changeable option in a menu

Any way, I'm using imageshack to get the URLs
http://imageshack.us/
REQUIRES you to create a free account.


Edit: I just read some of the updates again and stumbled across this. "We want a realistic game and even a slight increase in your swing speed or the reach of your weapon can confer a huge advantage in combat. Individual weapons feel different and you have to learn to wield them as a player."

So to ad this thoughts to the concept/idea, I guess if you move your mouse faster, your character will try to swing faster. (ofc skill and strength would determine how fast you actually can swing) And since different weapons have different shapes and lengths, you would have to learn how to use each weapon. for instance a Greatsword might not be able to do the same types of manoeuvrable attacks as a dagger which mean that in order to use a Greatsword efficiently, you need to learn how to "draw" your attacks in a way that works.

I can't really explain this in English so I drew another picture
Basically if you "Draw" the cursor from Green to Yellow, your character would be able to perform that move with a dagger, but if you try with a Greatsword, your character won't be able to perform that manoeuvre and instead he'll go from Green to Blue.
Simply, the Greatsword is to heavy to turn it like the dagger. (And ofc if you do a faster attack, the curve would be straighter)

Wow, I really like that idea. I'm not sure if you meant you had to "pre-draw" it, because they mentioned it all being real-time, but I think it would make sense if your character would follow the path that you "drew" almost while you drawing it.
e.g. You draw a horizontal neck-strike using a sword while the opponent's guard is down, your character follows through with the attack while you're almost done for maximum precision.
You do it again, with the same character, the same enemy, the same skills, but with a battle-axe.
The axe droops part-way through and ends up connecting between the neck and the shoulder. It doesn't do much damage because of the lack of skill and the shallow angle.
See what I mean?
You also mentioned you couldn't explain in English, what is your native language?

 

[Komuflage]

Wow, I really like that idea. I'm not sure if you meant you had to "pre-draw" it, because they mentioned it all being real-time, but I think it would make sense if your character would follow the path that you "drew" almost while you drawing it.
e.g. You draw a horizontal neck-strike using a sword while the opponent's guard is down, your character follows through with the attack while you're almost done for maximum precision.
You do it again, with the same character, the same enemy, the same skills, but with a battle-axe.
The axe droops part-way through and ends up connecting between the neck and the shoulder. It doesn't do much damage because of the lack of skill and the shallow angle.
See what I mean?
You also mentioned you couldn't explain in English, what is your native language?

No I didn't mean that you should draw your attack, and the action would be executed after you released the LMB.
Your character should start performing the action right after the LMB been pressed (I guess the game need a few milliseconds to do the math, so it wont be exact, but you as a player probably wont be able to see it.)

My native language is Swedish.

 

[Cooper Holt]

No I didn't mean that you should draw your attack, and the action would be executed after you released the LMB.
Your character should start performing the action right after the LMB been pressed (I guess the game need a few milliseconds to do the math, so it wont be exact, but you as a player probably wont be able to see it.)

My native language is Swedish.

Ah, now I understand.
It makes sense that it would need a bit of time.
Swedish, eh? I speak French and English.
Back to the topic.
I don't understand why the title is "Die by the Sword". Anyone?

 

[Rod_Lightning]

Ah, now I understand.
It makes sense that it would need a bit of time.
Swedish, eh? I speak French and English.
Back to the topic.
I don't understand why the title is "Die by the Sword". Anyone?

Read the very first post of the thread.

That or OP was listening to Slayer upon creating this thread.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Read the very first post of the thread.

That or OP was listening to Slayer upon creating this thread.

Oh.
then I shall create a combat thread. :-D

 

[Komuflage]

Oh.
then I shall create a combat thread. :-D

Or we can just nicely ask the OP the rename this thread ^^
Since there already is numerous threads about combat, it seems unnecessary to create more, and we already have a bit of discussion going on here.

Does BM have anything to say regarding the subject?
Would love to hear your opinions/thoughts (As with any thread really ;P)

 

[Madoc]

During the early months of development we did little else but test and refine the combat. When we started we had a lot of ideas about how to do the combat but when it came to testing we realised they were impractical or just not fun. Designing an action close quarters combat system that is simple yet skillful, fun and works well in terms of controls, the view etc. is not particularly easy or intuitive.

As it is we plan to introduce some additional strikes and combat manoeuvres but already the combat has much more depth to it than you might think because of the completely physics driven nature of it. Holding a button just swings your weapon, turning that into an effective blow is another matter and the other controls come into play. You have to time attacks against your opponents', you step and turn to connect your blow and give it force, you need to dodge and parry in specific directions etc.

Even just stepping and turning is something you need to get a feel for, if you think pressing A in combat just moves you left you're in for a surprise. Every part of your character has momentum and moving and turning relies on the feet taking steps. It has nothing to do with the mechanical systems you typically see in games and a far cry from left click = do damage.

Becoming more proficient in combat in SG is a bit like learning to drive a car, you're not really aware of how or why your driving improves, you just get better. The basics are simple and intuitive but there are many subtleties.

The end result is a lot of fun, it takes practice but it's addictive rather than frustrating. We believe the main reason why it's fun and compelling is because the physics just kind of make sense, you see and even feel what's going on. In games there's usually either nothing involved or outcomes don't really correspond to what you're seeing.

I don't see how something like what is proposed above could work with either the view (consider that your opponents can be anywhere relative to you) nor animations etc. It also sounds overcomplicated, our intention is to provide a control system that is highly intuitive and accessible to anyone but at the same time introduces a strong skill element, a fiddly control system goes against the "easy to learn, difficult to master" principle. Either way I don't see that anyone can really attempt to design a combat system for SG without first trying the game, it will be very different from anything you've ever played.

 

[Cooper Holt]

During the early months of development we did little else but test and refine the combat. When we started we had a lot of ideas about how to do the combat but when it came to testing we realised they were impractical or just not fun. Designing an action close quarters combat system that is simple yet skillful, fun and works well in terms of controls, the view etc. is not particularly easy or intuitive.

As it is we plan to introduce some additional strikes and combat manoeuvres but already the combat has much more depth to it than you might think because of the completely physics driven nature of it. Holding a button just swings your weapon, turning that into an effective blow is another matter and the other controls come into play. You have to time attacks against your opponents', you step and turn to connect your blow and give it force, you need to dodge and parry in specific directions etc.

Even just stepping and turning is something you need to get a feel for, if you think pressing A in combat just moves you left you're in for a surprise. Every part of your character has momentum and moving and turning relies on the feet taking steps. It has nothing to do with the mechanical systems you typically see in games and a far cry from left click = do damage.

Becoming more proficient in combat in SG is a bit like learning to drive a car, you're not really aware of how or why your driving improves, you just get better. The basics are simple and intuitive but there are many subtleties.

The end result is a lot of fun, it takes practice but it's addictive rather than frustrating. We believe the main reason why it's fun and compelling is because the physics just kind of make sense, you see and even feel what's going on. In games there's usually either nothing involved or outcomes don't really correspond to what you're seeing.

I don't see how something like what is proposed above could work with either the view (consider that your opponents can be anywhere relative to you) nor animations etc. It also sounds overcomplicated, our intention is to provide a control system that is highly intuitive and accessible to anyone but at the same time introduces a strong skill element, a fiddly control system goes against the "easy to learn, difficult to master" principle. Either way I don't see that anyone can really attempt to design a combat system for SG without first trying the game, it will be very different from anything you've ever played.

Thank you for clearing that up. I guess we will just have to wait until the Alpha to find out. I hope it will come out soon!

 

[Cooper Holt]

Or we can just nicely ask the OP the rename this thread ^^
Since there already is numerous threads about combat, it seems unnecessary to create more, and we already have a bit of discussion going on here.

Does BM have anything to say regarding the subject?
Would love to hear your opinions/thoughts (As with any thread really ;P)

BM? (8o

 

[TigerBunnyHeart]

I am getting excitted..

 

[Komuflage]

During the early months of development we did little else but test and refine the combat. When we started we had a lot of ideas about how to do the combat but when it came to testing we realised they were impractical or just not fun. Designing an action close quarters combat system that is simple yet skillful, fun and works well in terms of controls, the view etc. is not particularly easy or intuitive.

As it is we plan to introduce some additional strikes and combat manoeuvres but already the combat has much more depth to it than you might think because of the completely physics driven nature of it. Holding a button just swings your weapon, turning that into an effective blow is another matter and the other controls come into play. You have to time attacks against your opponents', you step and turn to connect your blow and give it force, you need to dodge and parry in specific directions etc.

Even just stepping and turning is something you need to get a feel for, if you think pressing A in combat just moves you left you're in for a surprise. Every part of your character has momentum and moving and turning relies on the feet taking steps. It has nothing to do with the mechanical systems you typically see in games and a far cry from left click = do damage.

Becoming more proficient in combat in SG is a bit like learning to drive a car, you're not really aware of how or why your driving improves, you just get better. The basics are simple and intuitive but there are many subtleties.

The end result is a lot of fun, it takes practice but it's addictive rather than frustrating. We believe the main reason why it's fun and compelling is because the physics just kind of make sense, you see and even feel what's going on. In games there's usually either nothing involved or outcomes don't really correspond to what you're seeing.

I don't see how something like what is proposed above could work with either the view (consider that your opponents can be anywhere relative to you) nor animations etc. It also sounds overcomplicated, our intention is to provide a control system that is highly intuitive and accessible to anyone but at the same time introduces a strong skill element, a fiddly control system goes against the "easy to learn, difficult to master" principle. Either way I don't see that anyone can really attempt to design a combat system for SG without first trying the game, it will be very different from anything you've ever played.

Thank you so much for the answer, this do really sound much intriguing, I guess it's hard to get a feel for the combat just watching a video, other than the first 4 paragraphs (which was awesome by the way, really hope it lives up to this ) it was pretty much the answer I expected.

Again I want to thank you for taking the time to explain this in greater detail, and if I may ask a request, then I hope that you guys can take some time every now and then and write things like this in the Announcement Thread.

I do realise that your quite busy, and I think I speak for all of us when I say I rather see you work on this amazing game, rather than spending all the time just writing about it. However, if you ever get some spare time, please do write an update like this, every little bit of official info I/we can get, really makes the wait worthwhile.

Hopefully you get what I mean, "worthwhile" was not the perfect word (Makes it sound like it wouldn't be worth the wait otherwise, which ofc I do believe it will) but I couldn't come up with a better word to explain what I'm trying to say.

Anyway, keep up the good work guys

 

[Komuflage]

BM? (8o

I refer Bare Mettle entertainment to simple BM, it's shorter, and they seem to understand that I'm referring to them

 

[Infidel]

I like the sound of the current combat system as described by Madoc, and look forward to playing with it.

 

[TigerBunnyHeart]

Me too because you can actually use your brain ..(wise angel0

 

[Cooper Holt]

Me too because you can actually use your brain ..

Yeah, as apposed to most games.
left-click = attack. *particle blood spurt from chest* *OH!*