Milestones

[fluffydino2000]

What kinds of perks do we see in Sui Generis? The two examples we have are defensive fighting and dual wielding for light weapons. Do these give passive bonuses, or unlock new abilities?

We also know that a choice of preferred weapon may be a perk, what will this achieve? Does it change your characters attack style to be more suited to that weapon. Because of how the combat works, it could change the set of attack animations that your attacks pool from. Or maybe you unlock a move specific to that weapon.

That is also only for light and heavy weapons. What kinds of milestones might we see for Armour - it's been said that it will help you move in it more and make it more effective at protecting you. Is this achieved by bonuses to move speed and your general resistance. Or again do the animations improve to become more effective, do you brace yourself to make your armours strongest point receive a blow?

For shields, to you learn to bash and angle yourself to deflect ranged attacks?

For insight, are you able to cast spells with less of a charge time, or are your active spells just cheaper in terms of energy?

For concentration, do you unlock the ability to use more and more continuous powers?

For meditation, do you discover different ways of recovering focus, or do you just learn to recover it faster?

Also, how exactly do the milestone trees work? Is it branching paths, in that if you pick Aspirant option 1, you can't pick Novice options 3 or 4 because you didn't choose Aspirant 2? Or do you just pick from a group of available milestones regardless of previous choices? Also, in levelling terms, since we have a global skill total, do you go from Inept to Aspirant straight in one level, or do you level to 20 for example? Just wondering as it'll affect how limiting the global total will be.

I guess for anyone who doesn't want to speculate, which kind of perks would you prefer, ones that change part of the game (shield bash, or a stabbing attack) or artificial bonuses (+20% move speed), for Sui Generis?

Edit: if anyone was wondering where I pulled the info on the thaumaturgy skills, look here.

 

[Meaghan Ballard]

For the skills, I would definitely prefer that you learn new skills over an arbitrary bonus, like the +20% to speed example you gave. Those types of bonuses should increase gradually, as you increase the skill, rather than getting one sudden large bonus when you reach a certain milestone.
I would also rather the milestone trees are branching paths, that require you to take certain prerequisites but they shouldn't prevent you from taking more than one path. Maybe you want to be pretty good at two things instead of really super awesome at one, so that your character is more flexible.

 

[Tom]

This is a very good question - I had always assumed that skill points would work Ultima style, given the dev's fetish love with the game. But yes, perks would be wonderful, like in Fall Out 3 or Skyrim, to name some examples.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I honestly haven't played any Ultima, only 16, so Im not sure what Ultima style actually is. I'll google it and edit this at some point.

 

[Komuflage]

Personally, I don't like the idea of choosing one things eliminates the other.
I always liked hybrids in games, and combining different type of skills to create an overpowered build.
(My 75% block chance, imba hp reg, unblockable aoe attack, killing everything except stunlockers, Assassin in GW1 being what I'm most proud of ) For me, a big part of my enjoyment in RPGs comes from theory crafting builds and putting them to the test. (see, 1k+H in darksouls, only made it past NG++ once )
And that's just not possible, unless I've the freedom, to chose what types of skills I want to get. I don't mind skill tress, as long as if I specc a few points, in Branch A, I can still specc a few in Branch B (See Old WOW) instead of Speccing in Branch A, negates any possibility to specc in Branch B (See current WOW)

 

[fluffydino2000]

Personally, I don't like the idea of choosing one things eliminates the other.
I always liked hybrids in games, and combining different type of skills to create an overpowered build.
(My 75% block chance, imba hp reg, unblockable aoe attack, killing everything except stunlockers, Assassin in GW1 being what I'm most proud of ) For me, a big part of my enjoyment in RPGs comes from theory crafting builds and putting them to the test. (see, 1k+H in darksouls, only made it past NG++ once )
And that's just not possible, unless I've the freedom, to chose what types of skills I want to get. I don't mind skill tress, as long as if I specc a few points, in Branch A, I can still specc a few in Branch B (See Old WOW) instead of Speccing in Branch A, negates any possibility to specc in Branch B (See current WOW)

I agree, I prefer the ability to cross spec, if you will. Sui Generis seems to approach this as I'd like for Light and Heavy weaponry though. I mean for milestones, it can't hurt to spec along dual wielding daggers then get a master milestone in using one hand weapons with shields in terms of balance can it, so why not let it happen. The only issue is it feels implausible at such a high level to be able to do something so different within a broad skill.

 

[Meaghan Ballard]

It would be cool to see some synergism between skill trees too, like if you have been improving your shield/block skill you get a bonus to the one handed weapons you use it with, or if there are perks geared toward certain fighting styles, like sword and shield or dual wielding.

 

[Komuflage]

I agree, I prefer the ability to cross spec, if you will. Sui Generis seems to approach this as I'd like for Light and Heavy weaponry though. I mean for milestones, it can't hurt to spec along dual wielding daggers then get a master milestone in using one hand weapons with shields in terms of balance can it, so why not let it happen. The only issue is it feels implausible at such a high level to be able to do something so different within a broad skill.

Well, if you would cross specc, then you wouldn't be able to master both, but might advance to expert. Kinda the point of cross speccing.

 

[Tom]

While all this "speccing" and "skill trees" work for their respective games, I can't imagine this one having those kind of systems. Heck, just thinking of "skill tree" and "Sui Generis" in the same sentence gives me goosebumps.

Mayhaps the Devs can share some basic info on this?

 

[Rob]

While all this "speccing" and "skill trees" work for their respective games, I can't imagine this one having those kind of systems.

Yes, atm I'm trying not to think about conventional mechanics, and purposely not suggesting ideas - why would we want to regurgitate a known model?

BM have demonstrated great innovation with what they've felt comfortable showing us, and I have no doubt that they will continue to wow us as and when they release more info. However, to push them to reveal things prematurely would not be constructive. That would most likely lead to the mechanics converging back towards conventional approaches, and ultimately SG being less spectacular.

We have to wait for them to properly formulate their ideas, and then present them to us. At that point, we can give our opinions and provide constructive criticism.

Whilst it's hard, we will just have to wait until BM are ready to disclose more info and/or the alpha is released. Of course, waiting is difficult, and means that there is little scope for activity on the forum... but it is for the best in the long run. Patience is a virtue

 

[ZaratanCho]

They can innovate with a "skill tree" ;D, probably not a good term, especially when it is automatically seen in the way it is in other games, though it can be completely different.

I think you should be able to master multiple things, just in a way that is VERY hard or rare. Or I don't know, after going through many world instances you have the oppertunity. To have something to work for, aside from just your own skills. I would like it if there is limitless room for evolving your avatar(as it is) in some manner at least.

 

[Komuflage]

While all this "speccing" and "skill trees" work for their respective games, I can't imagine this one having those kind of systems. Heck, just thinking of "skill tree" and "Sui Generis" in the same sentence gives me goosebumps.

Mayhaps the Devs can share some basic info on this?

Well BM already stated that there wont be any levels, so we wont be "speccing" as in most games, however, since we're not curtain how it'll work, it's easier to explain things using traditional words.

 

[Komuflage]

They can innovate with a "skill tree" ;D, probably not a good term, especially when it is automatically seen in the way it is in other games, though it can be completely different.

I think you should be able to master multiple things, just in a way that is VERY hard or rare. Or I don't know, after going through many world instances you have the oppertunity. To have something to work for, aside from just your own skills. I would like it if there is limitless room for evolving your avatar(as it is) in some manner at least.

But if you would be able to evolve your character so you're a master in everything, then there wont be any difference between 2 different "maxed" characters, and builds will become obsolete.
Kinda how it's in the Souls game, were every maxed character got 99 in every stats. (Also why, most PVPers, stay in lvl 120-140, since characters at that lvl are still very individual.)

On another note, personally I would like if progress in different skills are very slowed phased, you shouldn't be able to become master in a skill in a matter of a few hours.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Yeah, but this can avoided. If it is made in a certain way. Also you can put some soft boundaries to keep focus and still have enough room to expand with very small chance of actually reaching the limit. It can also be made not achievable for alot of people(in a sense).
And yet we, or at least I don't have a clear idea of what the systems(and progression) in SG will look like, so it depends. I'm just saying. ;D

 

[Tom]

However, to push them to reveal things prematurely would not be constructive. That would most likely lead to the mechanics converging back towards conventional approaches, and ultimately SG being less spectacular.

I get what you're saying, but I disagree that they would change the mechanics based on our reactions. I'm sure that by this point the devs have a clear idea of what they want, if not the details.

Whilst it's hard, we will just have to wait until BM are ready to disclose more info and/or the alpha is released. Of course, waiting is difficult, and means that there is little scope for activity on the forum... but it is for the best in the long run. Patience is a virtue

If patience is a virtue, then I'm a great sinner

 

[fluffydino2000]

Well we already now that there will be a global skill cap. So I don't think you'll be able to max out everything but we'll see. Maybe the skill cap is variable based on some kind of gameplay. But, they seem to be focused on making the way the player plays and acts a focus in character development so it might be difficult to find an un-artificial way of achieving a variable skill cap.

Also, we know that the milestones will be awarded at Aspirant, Novice, Expert etc. so you' imagine that there must be a value of sorts attached to your character for each skill, even if it isn't a conventional level. I'd also imagine that Milestones just improve the character at specific areas of skills as you are supposed to be able to wield anything at any time, even if you're inept at it, right?

 

[Komuflage]

I'd also imagine that Milestones just improve the character at specific areas of skills as you are supposed to be able to wield anything at any time, even if you're inept at it, right?

At least that's how I understand it.
Irl everyone can wield a sword, but only some can use it properly, and some better than others.

One exception I'd like though, is physic, a strong character should be able to wield a swei hander, while a weak character might not be able to wield it properly. For instance, in Fable 1 (dunno about 2 and 3) if you didn't have enough str, you could still wield a weapon, and deal decent damage with it, but your character would kind of drag it around, and really had to work hard to make a swing, but as the character got stronger, he would be able to wield it better and better.
Dark souls also have this, although not as good; if you don't have enough str to wield a weapon, ur character would not swing it properly. Only problem is though that either, you had enough strength and could wield it properly, or you didn't and would stumble when you swing it. (Even if you just got 1 point under the requirement)

 

[fluffydino2000]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Anything will be wieldable but you'll likely be ineffective without the proper training and physical build.

Similar effects have been confirmed for thaumaturgy, if you know a power, you can cast it. But, if your thaumaturgic mind isn't powerful enough, it could back fire or be a weaker version or mistarget.

 

[Madoc]

The system is not final yet but, following our current design of it, this is what the skill UI looks like right now:

You can't see all the skills as the panels scroll and can be minimised. The segments on the bars represent the levels of expertise, the slots below are milestones that are trained or being trained. The small buttons on the right of the bars are toggles for training and forgetting the skill or keeping it at its current level. There are still a few issues to resolve.

Also in the screenshot is a new WIP highland / mountain environment.

 

[Rob]

Sounds like good content for a new short dev video demonstrating it in action! Even if not finished