Necromancy

[Infidel]

Last update: 1/01/2013 !! HAPPY NEW YEAR !!
To help make life easy for fellow Necromancers I'll update this first post with developer information on Necromancy in Sui Generis as it becomes available. Note that information previously provided may change over time as development and balancing progresses.


How many minions can I raise?
Reanimating the dead is a continuous power. There is no cap to how many you can raise but each minion reserves some of your focus.
~ Source

Will stronger minions reserve more focus than weaker ones?
Not yet known.
(This would allow players to choose between raising a couple of regular minions, a single strong one or a horde of undead chickens just for a laugh.)

Will a reanimated corpse decompose with time?
Not yet known.
(An additional 'decomposed' body state for human characters could introduce interesting possibilities for minions. Fresh ones could pass as living and go unnoticed by NPC's, but keeping the same minion around too long could provoke negative NPC reactions as it starts to smell and outright hostility as it visibly decays.)

Can a corpse be reanimated more than once?
Not yet known.

If so, will corpses degrade with repeated reanimation?
Not yet known.
(With locational wounds that affect character performance there's a great opportunity to degrade minions through repeated reanimation, not just visually but also in their actual physical performance.)

Will NPC's react to witnessing Necromancy?
Not yet known.
(Could be interesting if NPC's reacted negatively towards undead minions that follow the player into town, but ignored the player unless they intervened or the NPC actually witnesses the player performing Necromancy.)

Can I assign equipment to a minion?
Not yet known.
(If characters can wear equipment and minions are reanimated characters, it could be a lot of fun to mess with our minion's equipment as we find new items in the game world.)

If minions can use equipment, will it degrade normally?
Not yet known.

If mounts are introduced, can I raise a dead horse and use that?
Not yet known.

If I die and respawn, can I return to reanimate my old corpse?
Not yet known.


Original post follows: (this may be removed at some point)
It was mentioned in one of the Kickstarter updates so I wanted to say that if we can raise the dead I hope we'll be able to equip them too. As a long time necro fan I've always wanted to be able to assign gear to my minions.

 

[666jet]

It was mentioned in one of the Kickstarter updates so I wanted to say that if we can raise the dead I hope we'll be able to equip them too. As a long time necro fan I've always wanted to be able to assign gear to my minions.

i very much hope so this probably would of been good asked in the thaumaturgy (the magic in the game) thread its in the insider forum but its fine here i really want to hear the answer to this one

 

[Baerke Hinn Gauzki]

Creating permanent minions that you can equip to your liking..? Seems kinda overpowered according to me... Hm, well, if the minions would rely on your health would be quite cool. Say that one of your skeletons die, it drains your health..! As a part of your soul is lost or something with the minion.

 

[Infidel]

Balance is an issue with anything and depends not just on the concept but also the implementation. I wish I knew more about how the devs see Necromancy working; whether it'll be permanent, timed, if raised characters will burn up after being put down (I hope not) or perhaps if it reserves some portion of your focus to sustain.

Personally I hope that:

• Reanimations are permanent but require a reservation of focus to sustain.
• The number of reanimations you can sustain is limited only by your focus.
• The amount of focus reserved would be related to what you're raising.
• The dead are reusable and can be re-raised if put to rest. Let's recycle what we can.
• With enough focus, anyone or anything can be raised.

So for example a competent necromancer could reanimate a small army of dead chickens (for a laugh), 2 to 4 humanoids (depending on how powerful each is) or a single stronger than average creature.

Whatever their plans I hope that at least the background implementation will support equipping humanoid minions with any gear you find, provided that it met any item requirements before death. It would be a lot of fun for modding or cheating in single player, even better if it's successfully worked in to the final game.

Edit: The life link idea sounds cool, though it would make equipping minions with decent armour a necessity and may negatively impact on using necromancy since raising anything weak would become suicidal.

 

[BigT2themax]

I like the idea of being able to raise things from the dead to make companions.

You could probably just make raised undead just act like normal party members, except you control them a bit more, giving them equipment and such. That would also mean that if they're killed (again), they should be gone for good (maybe have the corpse catch on fire or explode, and burn to ashes or something). Having an invincible skeleton or whatever follow you around and kill everything for you would make the game easy as pie. The limited focus idea sounds good to limit how many undead you can have following you around, and it gives the player lots of freedom, only stopped by how much max focus they can have, so it's good.

I'm wondering what to do when your undead minion bursts into flame and dies. I think maybe have all the equipment you gave it go to waste wouldn't be very good, but at the same time, a player could just get some high-end equipment and give it to a minion, then if the minion dies, they just pick it up and give it to the next one they make immediately after, hence essentially just having a really strong, permanent party member. Perhaps the game could implement one of these things (or more than one, perhaps?):

• If equipment durability is a part of this game, have the armor and weapons equipped by undead minions deteriorate just like they would when used normally. Perhaps even more so, as undead creatures would maybe be too dumb to know how to use weapons and armor well and not damage them too much.
• When the minion dies, each piece of equipment it has equipped has a small chance of just immediately breaking and dissapearing.
• Also, perhaps make an undead you've just revived have very low skill levels, and let them grow stronger and gain skills by fighting and such, so when your minion is killed, it's a bit of a loss regardless of whether or not equipment is damaged. The skills probably wouldn't affect the undead's intelligence and things like that. Wouldn't want our minions to suddenly become self-aware and decide they don't want to fight for us, eh?

This would discourage players from taking advantage of the necromancy system, and make having undead that you give equipment to an actual investment and not just something you do all the time.

Obviously, there's probably a better way to do these things, that doesn't give the player only downsides to having an undead companion over a normal one, but these are the ones that just came off the top of my head.

 

[Tony]

Also, perhaps make an undead you've just revived have very low skill levels, and let them grow stronger and gain skills by fighting and such, so when your minion is killed, it's a bit of a loss regardless of whether or not equipment is damaged. The skills probably wouldn't affect the undead's intelligence and things like that. Wouldn't want our minions to suddenly become self-aware and decide they don't want to fight for us, eh?

Actually, if your minion skilled up enough that they started to think for themselves that would be awesome. It would be just one more choice and consequence you'd have to think about. Do you allow your minion to become that powerful and chance him turning on you or not?

 

[Cooper Holt]

Creating permanent minions that you can equip to your liking..? Seems kinda overpowered according to me... Hm, well, if the minions would rely on your health would be quite cool. Say that one of your skeletons die, it drains your health..! As a part of your soul is lost or something with the minion.

They wouldn't be permanent, you can just give them weapons and armour from your inventory.
If they're weak then they'll barely be able to attack or even move with a lot of gear.
E.g. A weak skelton can wear a leather coat and helmet, and wield a war-axe; but cannot attack effectively with an enormous battle-scythe, etc.
Hope this helped.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Balance is an issue with anything and depends not just on the concept but also the implementation. I wish I knew more about how the devs see Necromancy working; whether it'll be permanent, timed, if raised characters will burn up after being put down (I hope not) or perhaps if it reserves some portion of your focus to sustain.

Personally I hope that:

• Reanimations are permanent but require a reservation of focus to sustain.
• The number of reanimations you can sustain is limited only by your focus.
• The amount of focus reserved would be related to what you're raising.
• The dead are reusable and can be re-raised if put to rest. Let's recycle what we can.
• With enough focus, anyone or anything can be raised.

So for example a competent necromancer could reanimate a small army of dead chickens (for a laugh), 2 to 4 humanoids (depending on how powerful each is) or a single stronger than average creature.


Whatever their plans I hope that at least the background implementation will support equipping humanoid minions with any gear you find, provided that it met any item requirements before death. It would be a lot of fun for modding or cheating in single player, even better if it's successfully worked in to the final game.

Edit: The life link idea sounds cool, though it would make equipping minions with decent armour a necessity and may negatively impact on using necromancy since raising anything weak would become suicidal.

I don't think that they should be permanent. Sure, if it's a gecko, but if it's a komodo dragon, then it can't.
All of these things would also depend on the Necromancer focus level, mind level, and skill level with that particular power.
E.g. If a trainee thaumaturge studying light and body thaumaturgy tries to resurrect a dead chicken, then they'll have some trouble doing it. Not to mention commanding it to attack.
But if an experienced Necromancer that is familiar with that particular power tries it, they won't have any trouble. In fact, they'll probably be able to resurrect many chickens. Perhaps even 4 chickens, 2 skeever-rats, and a crow.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I like the idea of being able to raise things from the dead to make companions.

You could probably just make raised undead just act like normal party members, except you control them a bit more, giving them equipment and such. That would also mean that if they're killed (again), they should be gone for good (maybe have the corpse catch on fire or explode, and burn to ashes or something). Having an invincible skeleton or whatever follow you around and kill everything for you would make the game easy as pie. The limited focus idea sounds good to limit how many undead you can have following you around, and it gives the player lots of freedom, only stopped by how much max focus they can have, so it's good.

I'm wondering what to do when your undead minion bursts into flame and dies. I think maybe have all the equipment you gave it go to waste wouldn't be very good, but at the same time, a player could just get some high-end equipment and give it to a minion, then if the minion dies, they just pick it up and give it to the next one they make immediately after, hence essentially just having a really strong, permanent party member. Perhaps the game could implement one of these things (or more than one, perhaps?):

• If equipment durability is a part of this game, have the armor and weapons equipped by undead minions deteriorate just like they would when used normally. Perhaps even more so, as undead creatures would maybe be too dumb to know how to use weapons and armor well and not damage them too much.
• When the minion dies, each piece of equipment it has equipped has a small chance of just immediately breaking and dissapearing.
• Also, perhaps make an undead you've just revived have very low skill levels, and let them grow stronger and gain skills by fighting and such, so when your minion is killed, it's a bit of a loss regardless of whether or not equipment is damaged. The skills probably wouldn't affect the undead's intelligence and things like that. Wouldn't want our minions to suddenly become self-aware and decide they don't want to fight for us, eh?

This would discourage players from taking advantage of the necromancy system, and make having undead that you give equipment to an actual investment and not just something you do all the time.


Obviously, there's probably a better way to do these things, that doesn't give the player only downsides to having an undead companion over a normal one, but these are the ones that just came off the top of my head.

Durability will be implemented, I believe that was covered somewhere. (The new writer update, I believe)
I completely agree that the resurrected minions should disappear in some way after death, and that the weapons should take more damage, and pretty much everything else that you said; but I don't think that there should be the possibility for them to disappear.
As for everything else, I like it a lot.

 

[Infidel]

Having an invincible skeleton or whatever follow you around and kill everything for you would make the game easy as pie.

They wouldn't be invincible since they could be put down and their master would be very vulnerable once this happens since it would require specialisation in this area for competency. They're also very likely to die fast since the AI will not be capable of intelligent decision making in complex and highly dynamic situations.

Rather than destroying the corpse outright leaving the Necromancer permanently defenceless and necessitating that any equipment the minion has be gathered up then carried to a new corpse, there are more creative ways of handling this. For example:

• Corpses could have a hidden timer governing how soon after death they could be reanimated. This would ensure an adequate period of vulnerability for the Necromancer.
• Corpses could deteriorate with each reanimation. A single locational wound could be accumulated each time, affecting their balance, mobility and combat ability. Being put down and reanimated repeatedly would eventually make them near useless.

Corpse deterioration could open some interesting doors too. Perhaps with time they start to rot, or with repeated injuries in battle they start to lose their flesh. The combined effects of accumulating locational wounds that affect their ability, rotting flesh over time and losing flesh in battle could transition a freshly acquired highly skilled and lifelike human minion into a horrific and clumsy abomination then finally to a brittle and damaged skeletal follower.

It would also open the door to higher level Necromatic abilities such as removing the affects of locational wounds sustained by the corpse. This sort of ability would not be usable mid fight.

NPC's could react differently depending on the state of a reanimated corpse, perhaps ignoring it while fresh and seemingly human but attacking it once decay and battle damage sufficiently affect it's appearance. This would mean older more damaged corpses come with additional gameplay implications to dissuade some players from keeping minions around. Simultaneously it would allow other players to roam the world causing chaos.

 

[Infidel]

Regarding equipment deterioration, I think it should deteriorate according to the same rules that apply to anything the player has equipped. The same laws of physics apply to everyone, everywhere.

Furthermore if equipment becomes damaged and ineffective, it would be nice if it remained equipped but had a degraded appearance. This would really add to the aesthetics of the game if it is possible.

 

[Infidel]

I don't think that they should be permanent. Sure, if it's a gecko, but if it's a komodo dragon, then it can't. All of these things would also depend on the Necromancer focus level, mind level, and skill level with that particular power.

If reanimating a corpse requires reservation of focus to sustain and what is being reanimated affects how much focus is required then a komodo would require a lot more effort for the Necromancer to sustain than a gecko. So only a strong necromancer could raise it to begin with and it would come at a significant cost.

That I think would make it fair for both to be permanent, but what if a sort of relative power ratio was required to maintain focus? To clarify, the longer a reanimation was maintained the more focus it requires to sustain according to a ratio of the necromancer's power* over that of the minion. As the necromancer grows in power there is a point at which a reanimation becomes indefinitely sustainable.

Example:

• Necromancer power 1, chicken power 1, ratio = 1
  The necromancer is capable reanimating a chicken and sustaining it indefinitely.
  It reserves 10 focus to sustain.
  
  
• Necromancer power 1, komodo power 4, ratio = 0.25
  The necromancer is capable of reanimating a komodo but not indefinitely.
  It reserves 40 focus plus 0.75 every X seconds (1 - 0.25 = 0.75).
  
  
• Necromancer power 4, komodo power 4, ratio = 1
  The necromancer capable of reanimating a komodo and sustaining it indefinitely.
  It reserves 40 focus to sustain, much more than a chicken.

With this system a strong necromancer could reanimate and sustain anything of equal or lesser power provided he or she had enough focus to do so. Reanimating anything stronger than themselves would require a growing cost to focus. Once the total focus required to sustain all reanimations exceeds the capacity of the necromancer, the whole lot could collapse leaving the necromancer with no minions and their focus completely depleted.

* Power being a general term to describe overall competence of the Necromancer or effectiveness of a minionl

 

[Cooper Holt]

Regarding equipment deterioration, I think it should deteriorate according to the same rules that apply to anything the player has equipped. The same laws of physics apply to everyone, everywhere.

Furthermore if equipment becomes damaged and ineffective, it would be nice if it remained equipped but had a degraded appearance. This would really add to the aesthetics of the game if it is possible.

I think that we meant that the weapons would deteriorate more because the corpse burned up, dusted away, disappeared, etc.
If you gave the same awesome sword to every resurrected skeleton you made, and each one was permanent until it was killed by someone; then you would pretty much have a permanent companion that was nearly impossible to kill.
Resurrected minions should be partners in a battle that vary in numbers, not an immortal walrus-zombie-buddy.

 

[Cooper Holt]

If reanimating a corpse requires reservation of focus to sustain and what is being reanimated affects how much focus is required then a komodo would require a lot more effort for the Necromancer to sustain than a gecko. So only a strong necromancer could raise it to begin with and it would come at a significant cost.

That I think would make it fair for both to be permanent, but what if a sort of relative power ratio was required to maintain focus? To clarify, the longer a reanimation was maintained the more focus it requires to sustain according to a ratio of the necromancer's power* over that of the minion. As the necromancer grows in power there is a point at which a reanimation becomes indefinitely sustainable.

Example:

• Necromancer power 1, chicken power 1, ratio = 1
  The necromancer is capable reanimating a chicken and sustaining it at a cost of 10 focus.
  
• Necromancer power 1, komodo power 4, ratio = 0.25
  The necromancer is capable of reanimating a komodo and sustaining it at a cost of 40 focus, but the cost increases every X seconds by 0.75 (1 - 0.25).
  
• Necromancer power 4, komodo power 4, ratio = 1
  The necromancer is now powerful enough to reanimate and sustain a komodo, but it comes at a much higher cost than a chicken.

With this system a strong necromancer could reanimate and sustain anything of equal or lesser power provided he or she had enough focus to do so. Reanimating anything stronger than themselves would require a growing cost to focus. Once the total focus required to sustain all reanimations exceeds the capacity of the necromancer, the whole lot could collapse leaving the necromancer with no minions and their focus completely depleted.


* Power being a general term to describe overall competence of the Necromancer or effectiveness of a minion

If you resurrect a gecko, it will permanently eat up some of your focus as long as it's alive. If it dies, then the amount that it was burning will stop being burned. Simple.

 

[Infidel]

I think that we meant that the weapons would deteriorate more because the corpse burned up, dusted away, disappeared, etc.
If you gave the same awesome sword to every resurrected skeleton you made, and each one was permanent until it was killed by someone; then you would pretty much have a permanent companion that was nearly impossible to kill.
Resurrected minions should be partners in a battle that vary in numbers, not an immortal walrus-zombie-buddy.

To give them the same equipment would require duplicating that equipment. That wouldn't happen unless you're talking about cheating or saving minions with your character and transferring them across game instances, which I'm not but don't actually see a problem with anyway*.

Reanimating any creature would already raise it with whatever equipment it had upon death, I suspect. So all I'm really getting at is that it would be fun to be able to mess with that equipment conveniently. I hardly think that translates to immortal minions by any stretch of the imagination.

But if you do find a cool item and put it on a minion, how is that any more overpowered than giving it to a party member? Sure a party member may leave, but considering that a necromancer must invest their limited skills to be capable of raising minions it seems only fair that they should benefit from the fact their servants will not leave their side.

The only other thing is that party members can die. But if you give them equipment and they die with it you now have a minion you equipped yourself. Indirectly the game will allow players to equip minions with gear they find, so why not make it convenient to do so?

I'm not sure where you're going with immortal walruses.


* Saving minions and transferring them across game instances would allow you to get multiples of cool items, but so would picking up said item and transferring your character to another instance. So no harm done, this is not a competitive game after all.

 

[Infidel]

If you resurrect a gecko, it will permanently eat up some of your focus as long as it's alive. If it dies, then the amount that it was burning will stop being burned. Simple.

I'm a little puzzled by this also. It's exactly what I suggested initially and the same performance you'd get from my latter suggestion that uses a necromancer/minion power ratio to govern whether a minion would be indefinitely sustainable or become harder to sustain over time. The point of which was to address your concern that stronger minions shouldn't be indefinitely sustainable. I've edited the earlier post to clarify how the system might work.

 

[Cooper Holt]

To give them the same equipment would require duplicating that equipment. That wouldn't happen unless you're talking about cheating or saving minions with your character and transferring them across game instances, which I'm not but don't actually see a problem with anyway*.

Reanimating any creature would already raise it with whatever equipment it had upon death, I suspect. So all I'm really getting at is that it would be fun to be able to mess with that equipment conveniently. I hardly think that translates to immortal minions by any stretch of the imagination.

But if you do find a cool item and put it on a minion, how is that any more overpowered than giving it to a party member? Sure a party member may leave, but considering that a necromancer must invest their limited skills to be capable of raising minions it seems only fair that they should benefit from the fact their servants will not leave their side.

The only other thing is that party members can die. But if you give them equipment and they die with it you now have a minion you equipped yourself. Indirectly the game will allow players to equip minions with gear they find, so why not make it convenient to do so?

I'm not sure where you're going with immortal walruses.


* Saving minions and transferring them across game instances would allow you to get multiples of cool items, but so would picking up said item and transferring your character to another instance. So no harm done, this is not a competitive game after all.

I agree that they should wield/wear any gear that they had upon death, but I also think that you should be able to giver them equipment from your inventory - provided that it isn't too overpowered for the minion that you're using.
E.g: You find a skeleton laying on the ground under a table in a dungeon. You resurrect it. It has a brick in its left hand and a cracked dagger in its right. It's wearing leather trousers with knee-pads, and a rusty, flimsy, iron helmet. You take the dagger and brick and replace them with a bent greatsword. As soon as you let go of it in the skeletons hands, it drops to the floor. The greatsword is clearly too heavy for the skeleton. You decide to go with something that the skeleton would be good with. It was holding a dagger, so it must be good with light weapons. You give it a sword. It holds it, examines it, and looks back at you. This is a much more suitable weapon.

Understand?

 

[BigT2themax]

I agree that they should wield/wear any gear that they had upon death, but I also think that you should be able to giver them equipment from your inventory - provided that it isn't too overpowered for the minion that you're using.
E.g: You find a skeleton laying on the ground under a table in a dungeon. You resurrect it. It has a brick in its left hand and a cracked dagger in its right. It's wearing leather trousers with knee-pads, and a rusty, flimsy, iron helmet. You take the dagger and brick and replace them with a bent greatsword. As soon as you let go of it in the skeletons hands, it drops to the floor. The greatsword is clearly too heavy for the skeleton. You decide to go with something that the skeleton would be good with. It was holding a dagger, so it must be good with light weapons. You give it a sword. It holds it, examines it, and looks back at you. This is a much more suitable weapon.

Understand?

That's actually quite fair and stops players (or just discourages them) from just resurrecting something and immediately equipping them with super-powered weapons. Of course, it should be eventually possible to equip them with strong weapons by letting undead get stronger with experience.

Really, what I want to see in necromancy is the ability to essentially just create a new party member from a dead body. Except, to differentiate it from any normal mercenary or adventurer you find in the tavern and go travelling with, these undead minions would be both very controllable, and completely loyal and fearless (not really the right words to describe what's just a brainless skeleton you order around, but you know what I mean), so as to provide an actual benefit over said tavern-goers. You can give them equipment (so long as they can use it) and give them very specific orders or even control them directly, if you wanted to.

As for balancing's sake, I think the best way to do it would be to limit how many undead you can have following you by making undead companions be a continuous drain on your focus, and more focus is needed for stronger creatures.
Make equipment given to undead deteriorate faster, and get heavily damaged when your minion perishes. Also, of course, the undead's skills and such are all gone, so the next creature you resurrect would be rather weak compared to it. This, combined with the fact that newly created undead don't have the skills to use very strong or complex equipment, would stop a necromancer from just taking an infinity+1 sword and an infinity+1 armor set they found in a dungeon somewhere and giving it to their resurrected companion and get a ridiculously strong party member that mows everything down, only to just pick it up when it inevitably dies and hand it to the next one.

 

[Infidel]

I agree that they should wield/wear any gear that they had upon death, but I also think that you should be able to give them equipment from your inventory - provided that it isn't too overpowered for the minion that you're using.

Sounds like we're on the same page here. I certainly would not want to magically spawn anything into a minion's inventory or have them competently equip anything they couldn't use in life either. I'd like to be able to find something in the game world and either pick it up then assign it to them or order them to pick it up themselves, in which case they'd drop whatever they already had if both could not be used at once.

From what I understand of the character and equipment system any character can equip any equipment but their ability to use that equipment competently (skills and basic attributes like strength) governs their actual physical performance with it. So equipping a weak character with a heavy warhammer would result in them dragging it on the ground, struggling to swing it and being generally useless with it. Similarly giving unsuitable armour to a character may inhibit their mobility and possibly get them killed rather than keep them safe.

I imagine minions would work no differently so while you could give (or order them to pick up) any equipment you find to any minion capable of equipping it (no plate armour for walruses), not every minion would be capable of using the gear you assign competently. The player would need to kill and reanimate (or just find) a powerful corpse to have it use a powerful piece of gear effectively.

That powerful corpse would require a powerful necromancer to reanimate it and come at a higher cost in reservation of focus than a weak and brittle skeleton.

 

[Mimel]

First, the way you have described the use of necromancy is doable. I would include that the act of necromancy might have negative reactions from passersby or people in the area. I mean, if I were to raise a body and did not want immediate negative reactions, I would most likely do the "ritual" in a closed house, room or cave. Raising the dead could provoke violent/negative reactions from the populace.

If making undead were to take time and effort, the necromancer might be vulnerable to attack and the ritual interrupted. So too, I can see that magic of this kind (and perhaps any kind as it is very rare) were to be used, it should be hidden to avoid wasting the energy or avoiding the initial reactions.

As far as the equipment, I agree with the final resulting discussion: they wear down at a faster rate and have a chance of breaking or failing after the corpse's "death".

Second, I do NOT agree with the possibility of undead improving their skills in weaponry or fighting abilities. I think they should have limited range of abilities based on what their living abilities were. If the skeleton was an accomplished archer in life, then they would have a decent skill with the bow in undeath. However, I would maintain that the skill is a little lower than in life as the body is not imbued with the free soul/spirit/energy of the former life.

I also would prefer that the corpse only be made undead once. To be able to reanimate the corpse again and again, seems like too much power. However, the argument stated earlier about the degradation of the body after each reanimation is acceptable too and could bring more play-ability to our decisions.