Running improvements and combat controls

[tiny lampe]

As I said before, if adding more ways to swing can enhance the gameplay then I'm not against it. I doubt it can though. Let me try to explain this; when I look at a combat system, I always wonder: as a player, what do I have to do to be effective? Being effective in Sui Generis seems trickier than in most games because:

1) Opponents move a lot and there is no auto-aim so landing a clean hit is a challenge in itself. Such challenge can be even greater thanks to the presence of locational armor and locational damage (if only the limbs of an opponent are not covered by armor, then you want to aim precisely there).

2) To maximize the effectiveness of your hit you need to move in a specific way as you are attacking. This 'moving in a specific way' involves performing certain steps and turns in a coordinated fashion, which is not easy. Quoting Madoc:

if you think pressing A in combat just moves you left you're in for a surprise. Every part of your character has momentum and moving and turning relies on the feet taking steps. It has nothing to do with the mechanical systems you typically see in games

Now, if you notice, everything in 1) and 2) simply involves 4 movement keys, a crosshair, and a single attack button. It's a ridiculously simple control system yet it has a lot of depth in it.

What happens if you allow for 1H swords to do an overhead an attack by pressing Shift+LMB? In my opinion, the gameplay is as deep as before (aiming and performing the correct steps/turns to empower my attack are still my main concerns) but now I have to use 2 buttons to perform my swing instead of just 1. For me this is a gameplay with the same depth but more inconvenient controls. That's why I don't like it. And if instead of just one modifier key we have like 3 as Kamuflage proposed then I like it much much less. The less keys I have to worry about during combat, the better.

So, to conclude: I'm not against the idea of adding new ways to swing a weapon. I just believe this adds too little to the gameplay to justify cluttering a clean control system with modifier keys. This means that I'm fine with adding different moves as long as the current control sytem is preserved. For exemple, if you can unlock a milestone that allows you to replace the 1H sword thrust with an overhead attack, then I'm perfectly fine with that. Similarly, if you can unlock a milestone that replaces normal sword swings with pommel attacks WHEN you are very very close yo your opponent, then I'm perfectly fine with that as well.

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

How about scrolling up with your mousewheel to stab, and and down to overhead?
Also, video is being released soon.

 

[Komuflage]

How about scrolling up with your mousewheel to stab, and and down to overhead?
Also, video is being released soon.

Scroll zooms in/out

For exemple, if you can unlock a milestone that allows you to replace the 1H sword thrust with an overhead attack, then I'm perfectly fine with that. Similarly, if you can unlock a milestone that replaces normal sword swings with pommel attacks WHEN you are very very close yo your opponent, then I'm perfectly fine with that as well.

So if I've a milestone that changes my thrust into a overhead strike. Then What If I'm up against a enemy were thrusting is needed, should I have to untrain my milestone?

And what if I unlocked the pommel milestone, and I want to swing and not Pummel, but the game automatically pummels even if I don't want to.

That just seems like bad game design imo.

I hate when the games does thing automatically for me. Let me control my own character, otherwise what's the point of playing?

Thing is, I always have my little finger on Shift, and my Thumb on Space.
If I want to do a thrust attack, and all I've to do is press Shift with my little finger. Or I want to do a shield bash, and all I've to do is move my finger from space to alt, then honestly I don't see that as a problem at all.

What I love about the PC (keyboard specifically) is that I'm never limited to just a small numbers of buttons like a controller.

Having moves being automatic doesn't make any sense to me, when I've got more than enough buttons on my keyboard.

 

[tiny lampe]

Having moves being automatic doesn't make any sense to me, when I've got more than enough buttons on my keyboard.

Here we enter the realm of preferences so the only reasonable thing we can do is agree to disagree.

It's refreshing to be able to state our different opinions in such civilized fashion though

 

[Komuflage]

Here we enter the realm of preferences so the only reasonable thing we can do is agree to disagree.

It's refreshing to be able to state our different opinions in such civilized fashion though

"Options > Controls > Manual Special moves [X]" Should fix that

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

@Kamouflage
Who says SG can't do it differently and use other keys for zooming in and out?

Nice improvement, totally worthy explanation along with how controls are working !

In addition to Subhu Man's interesting and enthuastic approach for a moment this part of video came to my mind, I'd like to share with you and discuss it how true would it be to consider for bladed weapons. The point in that movement the heel of your foot raises (also your hips turn a little horizontally to ground) according to from which side you deliver the blow (speaking exclusively for thrusting attacks here) I'm asking this since in thrusting attacks character's foot stands still on the ground, thus it feels like it has no punch behind it. I've read some comments in youtube regarding this matter so found it worthy to mention/ask that how close my thought for this issue is viable for sword fights ?

(He was my ex-muay thai teacher in gym; sorry couldn't find a more appropriate and english video but you will get what I mean by visually.)
Watch it only 0:58-1:05

I need to summon @Elric von Rabenfels to get confirmation about this thought though, pity that I run out of that scroll

Also adressing this a bit late, but here we go:

If you're not moving your whole body / feet along with your attack, you're doing it wrong.
Hence, Brec's post and video is correct. It's the truth of almost every form of melee attack.

Longsword techniques are often very specific, but they are never done while standing still.
This doesn't mean that you have to lean into every attack like crazy, or have to make a certain movement of the feet, that's not the point, but pivoting your body so that it reinforces and goes along with the attack is essential, and comes naturally with enough training.

If one should thrust straightforward or in some degree is entirely dependant on where you want to hit. Although thrusts in a downward degree (aimed at below the nipples) are a safety rule for many (in my opinion silly) rule systems for medieval... "swordplay", mostly because those... systems don't enforce any armour, so people run around with open helmets and all. I personally disagree with that and believe mandatory armour standards, especially regarding helmets, are much better than simply limiting the combatants in what they can do.

 

[Komuflage]

@Kamouflage
Who says SG can't do it differently and use other keys for zooming in and out?

Well the default key for zooming in/out is Scroll up/down, and rotating the camera is MMB.

However I'm quite certain you'll be able to rebind all the keys, so if you prefer Scroll to attack, then I'm sure you can have that

 

[Elric von Rabenfels]

Okay, I've been feeling worse and worse in the last couple of hours, as I've managed to get myself some nice flu. At this point, I'm shivering and freezing like hell, but I still managed to get something half-arsed done:

http://videobam.com/OFkxu

These are strikes with very mediocre power from a person in a weakened state (me).
Still, they send that helmet off the bench. Image a full powereed thrust to your face, it IS going to shake you up and distract you, so you'd end up more prone to follow up attacks.
The point you hit is rather important with helmet though, due to leverage.

I'd like to apologise for the lack of effort, but I'm heading to bed now to sleep this crap off.

Cheers,
Elric

 

[Sakonosolo]

Not sure what you mean by milestones. I think unnecessary unlocking is a bad thing, but lots of games today put that in for some reason. The control scheme should be exactly the same as it was before, just with more keys added for different things. So normal swings still just use the mouse and mb1, but on top of that, as it is now, thrust and overhead are the same key, that is mmb, but which one it does varies on the weapon. What other people here want is for those two actions to be split up into to separate keys so it's relying less on context, which I think is a good thing.

Too many games these days throw context sensitive stuff in and I think it does more to mess with the control scheme than anything else. An extreme example of this is Mass Effect 2 and Spec Ops, where the default spacebar is used for running, taking cover, mantling, and using items in the environment depending on context. It isn't as bad for a controller because they have less available buttons, although it still can cause screw-ups because of the context stuff. It's just awful with kb+m though because historically it's been 1 key for 1 action and having 1 key for 4 actions that aren't in any way related is just annoying.

That being said, this isn't anywhere near as bad a case, but I still think that adding mechanisms in a game for the player and AI to exploit is a good thing. Why thrust with a hammer or mace? Well, because you can. That's all I can really say about this. I think someone said earlier that even if it's ineffective as an attack it would still push the enemy back, which is effective I would think. Especially without having a general melee attack like a kick. And this would also allow overhead swings with a sword (I think, as they had thrusts didn't they?) which is effective. Adding more variety to combat is a good thing I think.

 

[Komuflage]

Not sure what you mean by milestones. I think unnecessary unlocking is a bad thing, but lots of games today put that in for some reason. The control scheme should be exactly the same as it was before, just with more keys added for different things. So normal swings still just use the mouse and mb1, but on top of that, as it is now, thrust and overhead are the same key, that is mmb, but which one it does varies on the weapon. What other people here want is for those two actions to be split up into to separate keys so it's relying less on context, which I think is a good thing.

Too many games these days throw context sensitive stuff in and I think it does more to mess with the control scheme than anything else. An extreme example of this is Mass Effect 2 and Spec Ops, where the default spacebar is used for running, taking cover, mantling, and using items in the environment depending on context. It isn't as bad for a controller because they have less available buttons, although it still can cause screw-ups because of the context stuff. It's just awful with kb+m though because historically it's been 1 key for 1 action and having 1 key for 4 actions that aren't in any way related is just annoying.

That being said, this isn't anywhere near as bad a case, but I still think that adding mechanisms in a game for the player and AI to exploit is a good thing. Why thrust with a hammer or mace? Well, because you can. That's all I can really say about this. I think someone said earlier that even if it's ineffective as an attack it would still push the enemy back, which is effective I would think. Especially without having a general melee attack like a kick. And this would also allow overhead swings with a sword (I think, as they had thrusts didn't they?) which is effective. Adding more variety to combat is a good thing I think.

Couldn't say it better myself

anyways about milestones http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/milestones.1007/ Scroll to post #19 if you want some info about it

 

[CJB]

Well the running animation really has improved a lot! But it still seems like the character is floating a little bit above the ground. Most likely because of the soft shadows around feet and leg area. The shadows should be much harder near the feet. Also adding footprints and dust particles should make the character much more down to earth. ^^

 

[BigT2themax]

That's a really good point. Some small particle effects being kicked up when your feet hit the ground, combined with some footprints in mud or snow or sand or whatever, as well as any other random indicators in the environment necessary to show that, yes, your feet are indeed hitting the ground... that'll really help the running animation look less floaty. But I'm guessing those are things that are likely to be put in the game anyway.

It could be improved even more by having the character's torso move vertically up and down as they run, even just a teensy bit, to give the character the appearance of having weight. But that's just nitpicking.

Really, though, at this point, it'd look perfectly fine. I think most people could probably look past the animations and just take the game as a physics-based action RPG where they can have fun with the ragdolls and the fighting and whatnot. I know I would.

 

[thartist]

So you think the same floating torso with legs running below is better in any way? Sorry to be harsh but... Torsos go up and down while running. Plus, combat moves are too wobbly, make em a little firmer.

 

[BigT2themax]

So you think the same floating torso with legs running below is better in any way? Sorry to be harsh but... Torsos go up and down while running. Plus, combat moves are too wobbly, make em a little firmer.

You're pretty much repeating what everyone else has suggested, but a bit more rudely instead.

Anyways, the better part about it is how they lean forwards. It looks a bit more natural that way, but, as the video says, it could be improved some more. As for the combat, I've no idea what you mean by making it firmer, but the physics based combat is going to make things a little ragdolly, but the combat is going to be more about having more control over your movements and a lot of dynamic combat than it's going to be about realistic movements.

And hey, welcome to the forums, thartist! I recommend you try to be kind and polite to people in your posts.

Edit: I realise I may have come across as a bit of a jerk, here. Sorry if I did. But seriously, make sure you're nice and civil on the forums. It only takes a few people to start shouting and insulting one another before the whole forum begins to turn sour and lose it's lovely, kind atmosphere.

 

[the0thMonkey]

So you think the same floating torso with legs running below is better in any way? Sorry to be harsh but... Torsos go up and down while running.

While this is an old issue, one that I'm sure BME have heard enough about, it is important because so many of the comments on the game have been about how the running looks. Clearly it sticks out like a sore thumb, causing viewers (and eventually players) to look past all the other amazing things this game has to offer.

However, this is not a priority (and shouldn't be) for BME right now. They have more important things to work on.

Now, that I think about it, it's funny how people find SG's running animations more distracting than Skyrim's (for example). The blatant clipping through objects, canned animations that make no sense in certain contexts, riding horses up mountains, etc. I hope SG doesn't fall into the Uncanny Valley.

Plus, combat moves are too wobbly, make em a little firmer.

This is a separate issue. Although I don't know the specifics of the physics engine, I'm going to hazard a few guesses about some problems that might be encountered with such a dynamic system.

I agree that the combat moves look more "wobbly" than canned animations. This is because the game is trying to balance (pardon the pun ) player input and physics. For any given action (slowing to a walk after jogging, dodging then swinging a weapon, etc), a real person knows what they want to do next. Therefore, they are able to incorporate this intention into their movement. Because we do not have such a high degree of control, and the game does not know what we are thinking, this degree of physical anticipation is not possible. The game has to either perform smooth animations that lag somewhat behind your input, or choppy (or no) animations that follow your input exactly. Because the combat requires precision and players would feel "cheated" if their character did not follow their commands exactly (and maybe died, in a worst case scenario), BME has had to sacrifice some animation smoothness for the sake of responsiveness.

I hope that made sense

 

[Nate]

So you think the same floating torso with legs running below is better in any way? Sorry to be harsh but... Torsos go up and down while running. Plus, combat moves are too wobbly, make em a little firmer.

Really guy? You're gonna complain about a tiny detail like running animation and how the torso does not move up and down? You really have to take a step back and look at what this game is trying to accomplish, besides just pointing out something that BME has already said they will try and improve on if possible. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know what is going on (Big Lebowski anyone?). But really dude actually provide something useful to the discussion or don't even bother typing.

As for the video...
The combat controls seem like they will offer a lot of possibilities for tactics and tight player control. Every video of this game I see makes me more hype to play it. Keep up the good work folks.

 

[Komuflage]

No reason to get hostile towards one another.

 

[BigT2themax]

Really guy? You're gonna complain about a tiny detail like running animation and how the torso does not move up and down? You really have to take a step back and look at what this game is trying to accomplish, besides just pointing out something that BME has already said they will try and improve on if possible. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know what is going on (Big Lebowski anyone?). But really dude actually provide something useful to the discussion or don't even bother typing.

Hey, now. No need for the vitriol and insults. The guy wasn't very tactful about how he said things, but he wanted to add his thoughts on the subject, and we should all respect that. Telling people to go away and calling them a child (or any other insult) will just cause people to react angrily, and will eventually make the forums an aggressive place to be, as everyone's rude and angry with one another, and they're more focused on insulting each other than they are actually discussing the things at hand.

It's tempting (maybe even satisfying) to give people a smackdown when they're being a bit rude, but trust me, it's much better to discuss the points brought up in a calm, civil manner, much like the0thmonkey did (and very eloquently, I might add. Explained things much better than I did. ), and to maybe ask them nicely to tone down the rudeness or whatever.

Just don't insult them or tell them to go away or anything like that! Be nice and civil to them! It'll be good for the forum if we don't react negatively to comments we disagree with, and just ask them nicely to keep any vitriol down.