Thoughts and Ideas General

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by PipesOfMadness, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Espadon

    Espadon Member

    Messages:
    27
    Sorry for not answering for a long time, I was busy. I'm not going to make excuses to anyone. You may have a different opinion on this issue, and I will accept it. In any case, the developers know exactly what they want the game to see, and only they decide what will be added and what is not.
    I also did not experience any problems with orientation during the passage of Exanima. I want you to understand when I talked about the map, I meant Sui Generis. I can not understand why you do not like the idea of maps? This is very natural, for example, if you want to remember the place where you made the cache, you will draw a sketch. Do you think it will simplify the game? Yes it is. But not to add a card just because of this will be meaningless. This way to make the game more difficult is pointless. It is the same as to forbid the player to use any weapon, except the torch. Just for the difficulty. This comparison is exaggerated, but still.
    You see, I believe that Exanima, and most likely, Sui Generis, never chased, and will not chase after complexity. They pursue realism and opportunity. The reality in some place is very difficult, and in some place is easy. Therefore, sometimes for the gameplay you need to retreat from reality, but, in general, I am sure the game adheres to this line. Therefore, I do not consider Exanima "HardCore" a game. I think that hc games are those that are created precisely for the difficulty, in order to challenge the player. And if the game offers you workarounds, allows you to avoid difficulties and make your life easier, then this is not a hardcore game. It may sound strange, but I do not think Dark Souls hardcore game. Maybe Exanima is a hard game, but not hardcore. And all its difficulty is due to its realism. Therefore, I believe that we should not abandon logical and realistic things just because they make the game easier.

    I hope you understand me, because my English is bad, and I have to use an online translator.
     
    Gsprfdude likes this.
  2. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    I don't think anyone can really go into detail about why the game is or isn't hardcore since that is generally a matter of opinion. I'd say in general that the game is not cruel to players, it has its systems and you are forced to learn them, but it is those same systems that attracted many of us to Exanima/Sui Generis. The game is really only hard because it doesn't hold your hand, it guides you along but it doesn't drag you one way or another.

    On that note I don't see why you think a map would make the game and or the people using the maps lazy. I have a near complete layout of level 1 by now, due to how many times I restarted and explored when it was first released. But if I could choose to have an in-game map then I would have. I guess I don't get the same satisfaction out of memorizing level structure, which like in Dark Souls is only really possible due to the good and memorable level design in both games.

    A map isn't even an unreasonable addition to the game in terms of difficulty, or player engagement. You can find numerous notes referring to the dungeon as being like a maze or a labyrinth, so if you want an explanation for why your character would think to draw a map, there you go. There are also blank scrolls, quills, and even ink pots scattered all around the levels. So it is not like you lack the materials to make a map either, heck your character even has a journal with them that they can physically write down notes in, let alone some map scribbles.

    Having a map that either fills itself as you go, or one that you yourself make in game (probably in a grid structure) doesn't really make a cut in exploration or difficulty when you get down to it. You still have to explore the level, and you still don't know what is going to be around the corner. A map is just a great tool in remembering where you have been or to reorient yourself. I mentioned the Etrian Odyssey games in an earlier post, and that's a series of dungeon crawlers that also revolve around the use of player created maps. You draw in the walls, the floors, points of interest, and traps too. It's a really engaging feature that makes some people feel more invested in the geography around them.

    Also, there is a literal cartography workshop in level 2, so it's not like maps don't exist.
     
    ChildrenofMana and Espadon like this.
  3. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    No, its not good to have another generic game with maps filling as you go thats absolutly bad. You are putting way much effort to make this game handicaped and it wont be interesting that way.

    God, it wont even have procedurally generated maps, enemies, items etc. which would make this game really enjoyable to play multiple times... still ask for maps, absolutly terrible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  4. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    What? How does having a map make a game generic? Lots of games have torches in them, is that generic?

    And it's not like you'd have to use the map, you can just not. The people who don't want it don't have to use it, but the people who do want it can. That sounds fair.
     
  5. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    That kind of reply... well you can play other games with maps and the people who dont like to play with maps keep playing this game and you play other games sounds fair.

    You are not even reading at this point and im not bothering anymore.
     
  6. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    I read your post, seems like you read and disregarded mine. Mine boils down to what is fair.

    Lets say someone at a party was ordering a pizza with anchovies on the side. Everyone there likes anchovies except for you, but that's fine because they're on the side and you don't have to use them if you don't want to.

    By your argument, including a feature that people like is wrong because it will negatively affect you. Even though, like with the anchovies, it is not required and can be completely ignored. Hell if the map is attached to a key you could unbind the key itself, making it literally impossible for you to view the map by mistake. What's wrong with that?

    Also I've been watching this all longer than you have, so I don't think it's right for you to tell me to play a different game.
     
  7. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    You are wrong.
    Someone in a party orders pizza, pizza is napolitana, beautiful taste, bleeding excellence... most party memeber enjoy it because most of them never tried it before, but they like it. Then some party memeber start asking for anchovies because they are handicaped and start making stories about them eating piza with anchovies, aproving each other commentaries, dismissing the rest of the party opinions about pizza napolitana because they are "minority" -according to anchovies guys even if they have no source to backup that-, being borderline autstic just because they are too lazy to go to the store and buy some anchovies for their pizza that been already enjoyed and approved.
     
  8. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    lol okay man. There's nothing to suggest that people who don't want maps are a minority, I never said that. You're working really hard to be misleading in your post. You're also being really insulting and you should probably take a break or seek help because it's just a lot of weird ramblings.

    Also it's spelled Neapolitan pizza, not "napolitana". So you should probably get yourself checked out.
     
  9. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    I am showing you that everyone can make up stories like you did.
    Also you need to stop projecting.

    Exploration just turns any game interesting, and thats something i felt in years of playing games. I want this game to be fairly interesting... a one go but epic (since there will be not procedurally generated stuff).
    If you want a map so bad, get a paper and start drawing irl, thats the easiest way youll get a map.
     
  10. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    It's not a story, it's an example and a much better one than what you provided. Bottom line is that a map does not hinder exploration, hence why no one has really asked for a complete map of the levels. What we're all talking about (generally) is a map that writes itself as you move, likely from room to room. Or possibly a map that you fill out yourself within the game. These wouldn't spoil levels for people because they are not complete maps, when you start the game all you would have is a blank piece of parchment and it's up to you to walk around and plot out the map. I can't really wrap my head around your line of thinking that having a map ruins exploration, all this does is make backtracking easier.

    Hell you can look at other posts in this same thread where someone mentions leaving behind misc. objects every time they make a right turn to help them keep track of where they've been. They mention that it wasn't exactly feasible either. That's fine for some people but for others they might want a better way of getting around. There could even be pretty good interactions, you have to seek out and pick up a compass to actually know which direction you are facing. So if you write up the map getting the compass would feel like an upgrade since you now know exactly what direction everything is oriented.

    My point with the pizza is that, regardless of who you are in the scenario, the person wanting anchovies or everyone else. You can all enjoy the pizza because the anchovies (map system) is on the side and completely separated from everyone else's pizza (game experience). I'm not even talking about some mini-map that hangs out in the corner and annoys you or block your vision. In all likelihood it would be like pressing the key to open the journal. A small window appears with a gradually filling parchment, or grid for you to align walls.

    Yes, if people want maps they can have a pen and paper and draw them out, that's true. But I think most people would agree that a better way is to have a map within the game itself. It would feel more organic and would draw players in more. Make them feel like they actually are some survivor desperately trying to get their bearings. I'd get your point if I was asking for a completed map shoved into the player's inventory. I agree with you, that doesn't provide much incentive for players to explore. But that's not what we're discussing, we're discussing an organic map which is easily accessible to players and is completely optional.
     
  11. Jimmini

    Jimmini Member

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    110
    A cartography skill is being considered. Lootable maps will be in the next update.
     
  12. snagar

    snagar Member

    Messages:
    4
    Where is the game, it is almost what 5 years and all I have Exanima ?
    Maybe move to VR.
     
  13. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    Every rpg has same kind of map and you want this game to be one more in the pile... the only thing this game is mostly interesting is because exploration with your own senses.

    Just a feeling like this, but with zombies and stuff.

    So because a douche get lost without a handicaped map we all need to pay the price.
    You can have a map for a smal city, a village or whatever... but underground tunnels no, thats what it makes this game funny and playable.
     
  14. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    I don't see where you are coming from? Just because lots of RPGs have maps doesn't mean that it is a bad feature. Lots of games have similarities in design because after 30+ years of RPGs people have an idea of what works. By that logic, zombies are in probably 95% of RPGs, throw them out.

    What price are you talking about? Having a map/map system added into the game? A feature that you are not at all required to use or even look at? What I'm saying is, where's the price? Because I don't see it.

    You can map out underground tunnels perfectly fine, people did it all the time in real life and some are even doing it now. Hell, some suicidal bastards even do that shit underwater. In fact, the Paris tunnels you posted have several detailed maps that already exist.

    If several generations of people have been living in the underground then there is reason to believe that maps would exist. There is a cartography room in level 2 also, so with that we can establish that at the very least, efforts were made to map out the underground or at least some parts of it. Even if none of this existed, someone trapped in a labyrinthine series of tunnels would probably do something to keep themselves oriented. It's definitely what I would try to do if I had to survive in dark, unfamiliar territory, especially when said territory is grand in scale and full of things that want me dead.
     
  15. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    Nope, they would have a good direction sense.
    Do not minimize people to your mind, do not project.
     
  16. forceofthegrim

    forceofthegrim Insider

    Messages:
    23
    @Syllabear3, @Gsprfdude, You guys are arguing opinion, and therefore should just stop. You're getting nowhere, and it's beginning to devolve into insult-tossing.

    Sui Generis (and, by extension, Exanima) is certainly not an easy game. I don't believe it is meant to be easy, and the devs have mentioned that the game is supposed resemble, at the very least, a Roguelike (read - a game with a near-vertical learning curve). Therefore one can understand why they would remove a feature like some sort of navigational HUD (i.e. a mini-map).

    However, despite this fact, they have included a compass. On top of that, despite this being a universe where magic exists to some extent, and that the character is an untold distance underground, this compass seems to work just fine - constantly and faithfully pointing North. Like people have said in previous posts, there is a Cartography room in Level 2, and materials for such (ink, quils, parchment, etc.) strewn throughout the area.

    Given all of these facts, it is logical for one to assume that the exclusion of a map-styled navigational feature is not an intentional move by the devs (as @Jimmini claims, they will be included in the next update, whenever that is), but rather just something that they haven't got around to yet.

    As far as the matter of opinion goes, if you want my two cents, I believe @Syllabear3 is just being a troll. It is NOT lazy to include such a feature, and if bumbling around in dark caves trying to remember where you are is really the most interesting bit of the game for you, then it'd be my suggestion to the devs that they simply make it an optional thing (disabled in the menus, just like in Red Dead Redemption and GTA). But in all honesty, it's rather ridiculous to ridicule people just for wishing to know where they are. It really just makes you look like an elitist. Maybe Rainbow Six: Siege or 2K or Rocket League might be more in your area. If you aren't into shooters or sports, however, may I just suggest you take a look at a game called Dwarf Fortress? That is a good example of a game which is actually supposed to be nearly impossible.

    But not having a map in an rpg where finding your way around isn't really supposed to be the entire point of the game, simply for the sake of what, trying to be different? Sounds kind of hipster-ish to me.

    EDIT: Also, reviewing the insider forum (trying hard not to give anything away here), I just want to make it known that this is an issue they have been discussing for several months and they have an idea in place for a navigational system that I believe will satisfy both of your viewpoints. Let's just say you will no longer be required to draw your own map, but that it also won't take away from the immersive, realistic quality of the game.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
    ChildrenofMana likes this.
  17. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    "Devolving to insult tossing" *proceed to call others trolls because they have diferent opinion*
    Way to throw a wall of text to the garbage.

    It doesn't matter what your opinion is, lack of map makes any game more interesting and immersive and immense.
    t. person who spent many many years playing any kind of games.
     
  18. Syllabear3

    Syllabear3 Member

    Messages:
    596
    In these times where people is lazy and rush straight to the top with no effort just to say "it was a meh game with lack of endgame content" you need to make your game as interesting as possible.
    I am tired of pointing this but then get completly ignored and see games die.

    I swear sometimes i think people is retarded on purpose.
     
  19. Espadon

    Espadon Member

    Messages:
    27
    With the latest update, the combat system has improved. I heard that over time it will become even better, much better. In Sui Generis, there will be added a lot of opportunities, new skills ... And I thought that it would be good to make some kind of detailing so that the player felt that his character’s fencing skills are really increasing. For example, another sound when striking a sword. Instead of a hum (like when struck with a stick) whistling (like with a lash) This would give the feeling that the character began to hold the sword correctly when struck. Or if you hit the water instead of a loud noise with a bunch of splashes, it is just a quiet splash. I heard that the Cossacks practiced this way. Chopping water. Also, maybe when blocking the sword will deteriorate less. As if the character learned to take a punch on the plane of the blade in order to maintain the sharpening. Or, maybe, you will even start to do more damage with chopping blows (in the cutting of tatami it is very important that the blade is in the correct position, the blade plane must coincide with the impact plane) because your character has become more experienced. This will not apply to any particular skill, but will simply manifest itself as the character’s experience or skill increases. Perhaps this is a waste of resources for such a small team, but I would be happy to see something like this. "The devil in the details" Since we are talking about the details, I would like to say more about the reaction of the NPC to the character's behavior, or his clothes. I’m sure it will be in Sui Generis. For example, a knight in blued armor will be treated much more respectfully than an ordinary traveler. There was something similar in Skyrim, but only with daedric armor. Or, for example, if you go to a tavern in a disadvantaged area and show that you have money (expensive sword, jewelry, or you just start to waste money), then when you go out, you may be attacked and robbed.

    Sorry for my poor English
     
  20. Gsprfdude

    Gsprfdude Member

    Messages:
    76
    Those all sound like cool ideas dude. I can't really think of a really good way to show an increase in weapon experience though, beyond the different moves we unlock. But like you're saying maybe more passive bonuses would be good for that.
     

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