Update #30

[Tony]

@tiny lampe, I see what your point is and I agree that many people might at first be alienated a bit by the new mechanics in SG. They're used to seeing a cookie cutter recipe which is used for almost all other games and SG is going in the complete opposite direction by creating everything from scratch.

However, I don't believe that SG is so alien of a concept that people will not be able to quickly adjust and learn to appreciate what it offers. After all, SG is still a PC game (been around for decades) and it's also an RPG (likewise been around for decades). While many people enjoy the current generation of RPGs I know there are quite a few people who also have the same attitude as Bare Mettle and they expected games to be far more advanced by now instead of stagnating and staying the same (and in some cases even regressing!). I believe the game will have a small following upon the initial public release but it will eventually start to grow exponentially once people realize the potential the game has and spread the word.

 

[Hemectu]

Congrats Baremettle!

To the comments above. I more agree with Tony. Sui expands the subtle or limited application of 'dynamic' that takes place in PC games. "Gamers" do in fact crave a high dynamic game. Look at games for Android such as "Out There" or FTL which all play on endless dynamic occurrences, perhaps a bit more simplistic than Sui, but people love them. Sui will be the game that is fun to restart, have multiple characters, and be very interesting and engaging to experiment with.

Sui will be the game where players will ask themselves "I wonder what will happen today" and from this they will have an endless epic adventure.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

Will we be able to quit game and pick up where we left off in the alpha?

 

[666jet]

I think the most important question is are we going to be able to stop playing once we get our hands on it

 

[Tom]

Wow, more updates, this is awesome!

Thank you for both your hard work AND keeping us up to date in this madness.

I have to admit that some of the concepts regarding the AI and the way things are connected are a bit TOO abstract for my mind, but hopefully it will all make sense once I play.

 

[SavaGhost]

@Psychomorph It's technically worth a lot more than money.

Sui Generis' Kickstarter ended about 2 years ago, which is about 520 working days (excluding weekends, but we know Bare Mettle and co. worked plenty on weekends and had already spent a year developing SG next to full-time jobs). Assuming they work 8 hours a day (they have actually worked 14-hour days) and their primary team members are paid average salary for a developer (going to work with $80k here due to their varying disciplines), they would still be over 200K GBP short.

This is assuming they never paid Bethain, Leonid, their former writer Tony (not to be confused with @Tony) and their new extra artist Scott_P, that Madoc gets paid average developer salary despite probably having been at the top of his field before he started Bare Mettle, that they haven't actually worked weekends or 14-hour days, and that they haven't worked on Sui Generis for a full year before the Kickstarter.

These are very, very rough estimates, but given all the personal sacrifice put in, I'd definitely say it's worth more than money.

Hey there,

Then that would be their own fault. They said that they would bring out a complete game with all the features they promised for £150,000. They have got £160,000. If they are 200K GBP short, then that is their own fault and miscalculation. A big one at that i'm afraid.

If they knew they would be short, why would they ask for 200K less than they need and make a (potentially if the "Prelude" doesn't sell well) incomplete product? And if they did not know how much they would actually need, well then they receive no sympathy from me even though Sui Generis is my dream game.

Let's be realistic here for a minute. This community is very nice and supportive but i think we sometimes ignore potential problems. What is Bare Mettle going to do if the prelude does not sell well at all? Are they going to cheat us out of their promise of a full game with all the promised features? Then that would be scamming and we would legally have the right to file a lawsuit. And NO ONE in this community EVER talks about these potentially massive problems we face.

I love Sui Generis, i love Bare Mettle and i love this community. But i want some proper answers as the supporter and funder of a product.

Thanks.

Edit: Oh, and i'm not even going to talk about the estimated/promised release date of the FULL game which was May 2014.

 

[Madoc]

That seems a bit harsh. We've never made excuses and always accepted responsibility. Did we miscalculate? Yes, but not how much it would cost or take to make a game, but what it's like to try to get on with making a game with thousands of people screaming at you to improve animations and such, examining every detail of early videos and piling on their expectations. Realistically I can't think of how we could have prepared for this, it's not a documented process and certainly not something we have experienced before. We always planned to make the game incrementally but the reality of making something with the public looking over your shoulder is very different. We're putting everything we've got into this game, I've taken no money from the funds we raised, I've put in my own and my family's. If the prelude is such a failure that it can't raise us enough funds to continue development then everything we've done would be worthless and it wouldn't matter much either way.

 

[lvk]

@SavaGhost They're still delivering everything they've promised. They're not 'short' any money to do this - I'm just pointing out for how much less they're doing it than your average game.

Sui Generis in its Kickstarter state (which was along quite far) was developed while BM was working full-time jobs, so given their drive to complete this I think the worst case scenario of the prelude not selling means they'll work on it next to a normal job. (edit: Madoc's post above is probably more valuable than this paragraph)

Delays for games are always a pain, but nothing new to both the industry and Kickstarter. In the industry it means they'll have to either rush their project or delay it, and years ago it was usually the former. Now Kickstarter is something entirely new, where developers who haven't built a full game yet have a neat working concept and a vision for what they want the full game to look like - except Kickstarter wants them to fill in a delivery date for their rewards.

You can't realistically be expected to make these estimates accurate unless you're coming from a company that has done this sort of thing many, many times, and they'd probably use another funding channel than Kickstarter. I've actually went through my history of Kickstarter projects I've backed. They're not all game design projects, but out of the 8 projects I backed, 7 are past their due date (not including SG).

The only project that made it on time was a music CD, where you can actually set recording dates and have a realistic idea of when it should be done. Sui Generis is coming with all kinds of new systems all written from scratch by one programmer. Even for the Oculus Rift, currently sold for $2 billion, their product has shipped late and the Rift-supported copy of Doom that was advertised with it never actually came with it. To date, the Doom 3 BFG edition still does not support the Oculus Rift due to equity demands from Zenimax in a lawsuit not too long ago. This is not something they could have seen coming.

This is a commonly criticized problem with Kickstarter, and it's as hard for BM to estimate a delivery date as any other software project on the site. As much as delays are a pain for everyone, BM included, I 'invested' because I appreciate what's happening at this company as a consumer. You could tell from the video they were really dedicated to making this happen, and that was enough for me.

These issues aren't commonly discussed because the forum is primarily comprised of people who really believe in the game and what it plans to do, and that it will do great if it pulls it all off. We're all aware of the worst case scenarios, there's just little reason to talk about them at this point in time.

 

[Scarecrow]

Backing this game with our own money was a risk each of us took. When you back something on kickstarter, you don't buy or pre-order a game. You give money to something you believe in, and in return you get some promises. So far they have delivered on pretty much everything they said they wanted to do, except the release date of the game. Don't you think they at the very least deserve the benefit of the doubt for this?

Whether anyone can deliver on all these promises or not is a risk all backers have taken. I knew this very well when i backed the project, and I won't hold it against them if they indeed can't deliver on everything. It's quite the ambitious project here. Even if the prelude would sell so badly that they can't continue on with the project, I honestly think that's something we can't hold against them. We donated our money to this. We bought nothing.

A lot of time and money has gone into polishing and improving on things much farther than they initially had planned, because of feedback from the backers. Things like the combat for instance. That's one of the reasons it's taken so long as well.

I have been concerned about the funds Bare Mettle have for quite some time actually, I've wondered whether or not it will be enough to make the game they wanted to make. It's a fair problem to discuss, but you don't have to be so harsh about it. Estimating just how much money and time they need for this can be REALLY difficult, as many potential problems are impossible to anticipate.

Also, cheating us out of a promise of a full game? That doesn't sound like Bare Mettle Entertainment to me. They've been working on this project for so long, and so hard. It's clear that they are passionate about this, and they would never try to cheat us out of a promise of a full game.

 

[ZaratanCho]

It is going to be a success, no doubt about that.

Aside from the great technical things in the KS pitch Madoc is the main reason i was so drawn into this, I fully trust him, and the rest of the team are also great people from what i have seen.

Things are progressing nicely, as much as i'd like to have something to play sooner(and i will with the prelude alpha release ;d) some things take time to be done, obviously. ;d

Mentioning the rest of the team reminded me.. i was wondering are we going to have Exanima Soundtrack available when it is fully released ? ;D

If Exanima is not selling for some mystical reason, we make sure everyone knows about it.

 

[Downstairs Eddie]

I think showing the game in action will be important, so it could help to make sure Youtubers know about it. They can show the game in motion, and when you see it motion it's a beautiful thing.

Will the prelude be on Steam? It might be worth making sure the popular Steam curators know about the game too. (And we should all write Steam reviews.)

 

[Tony]

@SavaGhost, I completely disagree with your attitude that Bare Mettle would be scamming us if the prelude doesn't sell well and they can't continue working on the game. While that is a worst case scenario which I find highly unlikely to occur (everyone I've told or discussed SG with has been nothing but impressed by it), the fact remains that Bare Mettle did everything in their power to deliver on their promises despite whatever the outcome may be. This is not a scam; they are not intentionally making promises which they have no intent of delivering or following through with.

If the game fails it will not be due to lack of effort to fulfill the promises made by Bare Mettle. They've gone above and beyond to not only give us what they promised but something even better; they're listening to the feedback of their fans and improving upon what they originally promised. This was not required by Bare Mettle and most developers would not be so open and willing to do so, especially when it means taking more time to implement the improvements while not being paid a single penny to do so.

The funds raised from Kickstarter are barely enough to cover basic living expenses and like @Madoc said he's invested his own money, as well as his family's money, to make sure development can continue. The devs will not make any profits whatsoever until the game is actually released and starts to sell. They're obviously not making the game to become wealthy or to scam people but rather creating it because it is a dream which they wish to see become a reality.

It is really quite unfair to the devs to accuse Bare Mettle of such things when they've treated their fans so well and have obviously been working very hard without pay to deliver what they promised. Calling the devs scammers and threatening to take legal action is not a good way to show your appreciation.

 

[Pancakez54]

Hey there,

Then that would be their own fault. They said that they would bring out a complete game with all the features they promised for £150,000. They have got £160,000. If they are 200K GBP short, then that is their own fault and miscalculation. A big one at that i'm afraid.

If they knew they would be short, why would they ask for 200K less than they need and make a (potentially if the "Prelude" doesn't sell well) incomplete product? And if they did not know how much they would actually need, well then they receive no sympathy from me even though Sui Generis is my dream game.

Let's be realistic here for a minute. This community is very nice and supportive but i think we sometimes ignore potential problems. What is Bare Mettle going to do if the prelude does not sell well at all? Are they going to cheat us out of their promise of a full game with all the promised features? Then that would be scamming and we would legally have the right to file a lawsuit. And NO ONE in this community EVER talks about these potentially massive problems we face.

I love Sui Generis, i love Bare Mettle and i love this community. But i want some proper answers as the supporter and funder of a product.

Thanks.

Edit: Oh, and i'm not even going to talk about the estimated/promised release date of the FULL game which was May 2014.

How can you sue a company because their product doesn't sell well xD?

That's the problem with Kickstarter, people feel like they are investing when they aren't ^^

 

[Tony]

How can you sue a company because their product doesn't sell well xD?

That's the problem with Kickstarter, people feel like they are investing when they aren't ^^

While backing a Kickstarter project is not an investment with a monetary return it could still be considered an investment - the same way that any type of donation could be. You are donating money in hopes of seeing a beneficial outcome (in this particular case a game being created) which would be the return on your investment.

Kickstarter was created as a way for people to invest in ideas though people seem to expect some sort of guarantee or return for their investment other than this. This is not how Kickstarter works. Some Kickstarter projects will offer rewards if they are successful but there is no guarantee that any Kickstarter project will succeed. This is why the money you give to a Kickstarter project is called a donation; the people you give the money to are not obligated to give you anything in return.

 

[lvk]

@Tony This is not entirely correct. The following is from the Accountability on Kickstarter blog entry:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

The full entry can be found here.

However, the following is also true:

The pursuit of these projects with a guarantee doesn't work. A Kickstarter where every project is guaranteed would be the same safe bets and retreads we see everywhere else. The fact that Kickstarter allows creators to take risks and attempt to create something ambitious is a feature, not a bug.

Basically you are expected to deliver something, but it's alright if stuff goes wrong, it's the very foundation of Kickstarter. As long as you aren't literally scamming your userbase by starting a project with no intent to deliver, all is well. You'd have to be really shady to end up with legal action against your business, and Bare Mettle has clearly communicated every delay with us (though we had less communication in earlier days).

But yes, use Kickstarter because you want to back projects you believe in with your personal earnings, not because you expect a return on investment or contractual promises. That is what traditional investment is for, and Kickstarter was created to be just about the opposite.

 

[SavaGhost]

Hey guys,

Oh don't get my post wrong please. If you read carefully you will see i am only speculating and arguing about possible outcomes. I am talking about IF's. My problem currently isn't with the way things are going. My problem is that we never talk about stuff like this. Like i said, i love everything that the community and the developers are doing but i just think that we need to properly argue about possible major problems and not ignore them just for the sake of being nice.

@Tony ,

I have not said that they are scammers. Obviously they are not. I am talking about a scenario in which things go bad. If they did and we didn't receive a complete product, THEN they would be perceived as, not scammers perhaps, that's bad word usage on my part but they would be called liars and there would be a classic kickstarter fiasco again.

@Pancakez54 ,

We are investing. That is literally the point of kickstarter. I am not buying a game. I am investing, sponsoring and funding a project. It is called Crowd Funding.

@Scarecrow ,

I agree with you mostly there. Of course it is a risk. But should we not talk and discuss these things to REDUCE that risk? I may sound harsh, but that would be because i think this community is being ignoring some important subjects in the name of being nice. Why did you not talk about your concerns with the funding for so long? That is what i think we should work towards to fix.

@lvk

I agree with all your points there, but obviously some of us think we should discuss these things more openly.


So my point is, in order to succeed where many other ambitious kickstarter projects failed we should talk about some of these tougher questions. Again, i love Sui Generis and i love Bare Mettle. I know they are working very hard and have sacrificed much. Of course they are not scammers or cheaters. I have never said otherwise. But that is what they will be in the eyes of the common steam purchaser and gaming media if thing go really bad. Let's talk to stop that.

 

[Tony]

@lvk, thanks for clarifying. I admit that my knowledge about Kickstarter is very limited since I've only backed two projects using that site. However, I very much like the idea of Kickstarter and I think it's definitely a good thing for gaming in general . Finally developers are able to have artistic freedom and not be forced to follow the demands of publishers. Like you said in your second paragraph, I was trying to stress that people should treat Kickstarter more like any other type of donation as opposed to a monetary investment or purchasing a product.

EDIT:

@SavaGhost, I don't think anyone on these forums is opposed to discussing almost any topic as long as it is done with respect given to all parties involved and when people avoid personal attacks or accusations with no merit.

With that being said, what, exactly, would you like to discuss? Talking about the financial state of Bare Mettle Entertainment really isn't going to generate more income for the developers so I'm not sure what the desired outcome is? I'm sure most all backers already know the devs are working with limited funds and that they are relying on generating more income with the prelude's release; they've stated as much and said that it is one of the reasons for releasing the prelude version before the full game.

Sometimes discussing a possible problem that doesn't currently exist is not in a developer's best interest. It can create unrest among the people following the game by giving credence to a problem that doesn't yet exist, blowing it out of proportion.

 

[lvk]

(edit) Tony's post covered the same topic and managed to include the part of general uneasiness resulting from the discussion I couldn't find a way to put in, so go read that instead.

@SavaGhost The primary problem is whether we discuss it now or when something does happen doesn't change the end result, as it's not up to us to decide the direction or exit strategy for their company, and we can't do their risk management either. Starting a project based on personal commitment usually doesn't come with an exit strategy either way, so for now the best thing is to wait for the prelude, play it and help Bare Mettle in making it the best prelude that has ever been (if it isn't already).

Though they don't have a business model. They're just making the game they really want to play. They really badly want to play this game.

 

[Pancakez54]

@Pancakez54 ,

We are investing. That is literally the point of kickstarter. I am not buying a game. I am investing, sponsoring and funding a project. It is called Crowd Funding.

Crowd funding, not Crowd Investing ^^

 

[BrecMadak]

It is going to be a success, no doubt about that.

Aside from the great technical things in the KS pitch Madoc is the main reason i was so drawn into this, I fully thrust him, and the rest of the team are also great people from what i have seen.
...

No man, don't thrust him fully ! Trust him fully since we need him badly