What does the player have to lose?

[the0thMonkey]

The other day, one of my friends mentioned that they had started playing Skyrim again. Having not played it for a long while, I decided I would revisit it as well. While just walking through the wilderness, I realized something: One of the reasons why Skyrim is such a shallow game is that pretty much the only thing the player has to lose is their life. And in a game where quicksaving and loading is so common, losing your life means next to nothing.

For a game to have real depth, like Sui Generis will, the player has to feel that they always have something valuable to lose. An example of a game that does this really well is Mount & Blade: Warband. In that game, your character could lose their items by being taken prisoner, they could lose relationship with other lords (which had a significant impact on the PC), and they could have their men (even unique NPCs) leave them. And those are just some of the mechanics that come to mind easily.

If BME manage to provide the player with a number of valuable things that they could lose, supported by game mechanics, SG gameplay will become even more intense.

I think that this is already the case to some extent, but I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions you have for mechanics or situations that would provide this sort of thrilling gameplay.

 

[Komuflage]

Well you can't quick save/quick load, so if you die in the middle of a certain event, you might not have time to get back and end it the way you want it, (Which can cause severe consequences depending on the event) you'll loose most/all of your items as well.

However I would much likely make these punishments more severe, I've been suggesting a debuff, although I don't think that will happened, since it would be "tedious".
I've also been suggesting that you'll re spawn far far away.
That would make it easier to get lost (Which Bm wants) and you wouldnt jut be able to go get some stashed away gear and try the, for instance, boss again.

A lose in "magic" power maybe (Might have been discussed before)

 

[the0thMonkey]

Their system of respawning without your gear definitely gives you something valuable to lose. This by itself should make people play more cautiously and not just throw their life away. Concerning a debuff, although it might be more realistic (after all, you were just resurrected which would probably be pretty traumatic), I think losing all your equipment would be enough of a challenge.

I'm also thinking that NPC relations should be something you could lose. Considering the realism and dynamic nature of NPC behaviour, this should definitely be done. Otherwise BME would be putting quite an advanced interaction system to waste. One of my pet peeves is when NPC dialogue choices make no difference. When all the options provoke the same response. I hate that.

 

[fluffydino2000]

My biggest concern on this front is the loss of items, I want to lose my items. I know this has been confirmed but so has a spell that allows you to store items. This kind of defeats the purpose in my eyes, I like the idea, but I think there should be a risk of losing that too. Like you lose so much power that you can no longer maintain the spell and so lose alll the items stored this way. Or maybe after death, thaumaturges can steal from you whilst you are unconcious because nobody is protecting your spell.

 

[Cooper Holt]

My biggest concern on this front is the loss of items, I want to lose my items. I know this has been confirmed but so has a spell that allows you to store items. This kind of defeats the purpose in my eyes, I like the idea, but I think there should be a risk of losing that too. Like you lose so much power that you can no longer maintain the spell and so lose alll the items stored this way. Or maybe after death, thaumaturges can steal from you whilst you are unconcious because nobody is protecting your spell.

There probably won't be much space inside the storage tear, otherwise it would most likely be overpowered.

 

[Tom]

There has to be a punishment for death. The problem is that not every punishment makes the game more challenging and/or fun. Debuffs (like in WoW) that weaken you will only make the player wait out the debuff, because if you died before, why risk a battle again with less chances at victory?

Losing your equipment has been discussed already, and if I'm not mistaken the devs have pretty much said that items in general are easily replaceable, meaning that dying will lead to losing your equipment (maybe looted by an npc!), so you can quickly re-equip and then go track down the fool who dared take stuff from your body.

 

[Komuflage]

Fluffy: yea I got a bit disappointed when he mention that void spell, hopefully they can balance it good at least. Because otherwise, what's stopping you from using the spell and putting all your valuables in there before a fight?
Also if this void can be used from anywhere, it's really just a external safety bag?


Tom: I read that about easily replacing gear, but I think that's only for the more common steel/iron weapons/armour.

All real valuables will still be lost. (Rare weapons etc)

 

[Scarecrow]

When you die you lose all the gear you currently have equipped and whats in your backpack. The void spell is something i can understand why people are concerned about, however this can be done in the right way. For instance, you can have limited space to store there. Even tough you create a pocket in the void, who sais there is infinite space in said pocket? Also, if they make the spell for casting void pocket have a long channeling time, it will prevent you from tossing in all your valueables when you're in a fight you cannot win. Equipment also is ultimatly expendable, but as Komufalge said, this would go rather for the more common gear. BM has said somewhere (i think) that there will be rare equipment that is hard to get, and losing it would definatly be a bummer.

This is a fair punishment for death, imo. Also when you die, you lose a portion of your thaumaturgic power (Do not mix power and knowledge. Power= The potency of your spells. Knowledge= What spells/power you can cast). In a way, thats a permanent debuff, that actually makes sense. You can get thaumaturgic power back by absorbing power from another thaumaturge you've slain. However, other thaumaturges can also absorb your power when you die.

This system will definatly keep you on your toes in this game, and makes death something you really want to avoid. The fact that this game saves your progress automatically (Meaning everything that happens, happens. No "Oh, my companion died. Just gonna reload that...", Skyrim style) further complements this.

It will be thrilling indeed...

 

[Komuflage]

But even if the void is limited, and have a long cast time, what's stopping me from putting all my valuables inside before a fight starts?

I think if they take your suggestion and add to it so you can only open the void at certain locations it would be fine.

Also take a note that the void spell is something you've to learn, it's not a starting spell. (This sentence was not meant specifically to you scarecrow, just to prevent confusion)

 

[fluffydino2000]

What would these specific locations be though? Maybe only in the overworld, or better yet, maybe only at locations the character can re-spawn at. The latter may or may not make sense as we don't know wherethe player can spawn but judging from one of Tony Dye's short stories, you seem to spawn at specific places on stone plinths. If this is the case, then this would work well, you'd have to deliberately go to these places to deposit stuff and stuff would be easily accessible when you re-spawn.

 

[Scarecrow]

Well, seeing as the spell is "Void pocket", maybe you could only use it at loaction that had a "Void rift". You could see a void rift both in the overworld and underworld (might be more frequent in the underworld even, seeing as all sorts of weird things are going to happen down there). You could make theese void rift only be at spawn locations aswell, but i think its better if you can kinda random come across them (Altough they would have to be rare), so that it gives a feeling like "Oh god yes! A void rift!". The void rift wouldnt have to be safe either, might be necromancers or others lurking around them for their own purposes.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Maybe instead you summon a rift, and whilst your getting your stuff, things can come out the void.

 

[Komuflage]

Well, seeing as the spell is "Void pocket", maybe you could only use it at loaction that had a "Void rift". You could see a void rift both in the overworld and underworld (might be more frequent in the underworld even, seeing as all sorts of weird things are going to happen down there). You could make theese void rift only be at spawn locations aswell, but i think its better if you can kinda random come across them (Altough they would have to be rare), so that it gives a feeling like "Oh god yes! A void rift!". The void rift wouldnt have to be safe either, might be necromancers or others lurking around them for their own purposes.

But if they would be to rare then you would never dare to stash your stuff, since you might not know when you can get it back.

 

[CitizenSnips]

I think a game that had a really neat punishment system was Guild Wars (Prophecies), although it was more reliant on their instanced environments. In Guild Wars, players would be able to group up in towns and then venture out into instanced open-world areas that would lead to other towns or progress the main quest line.

When a player died in this instance, they could wait to be resurrected by a fellow party member, or they could "release" and get resurrected at the nearest res stone. Either way, a debuff called Death Penalty would be applied that reduced max health and mana by a stacking 15% (i.e. 15% every time you died) up to I believe 45%. However, there was no timer on Death Penalty. Instead, the players could earn back percentage increments by killing enemies with their party and completing objectives. Additionally, once the player restored themselves to 100%, they could progress through the same methods to gain a Morale Boost that could give up to 10% bonus to health and mana.

This system is really quite clever, and I never really considered it until now. By combining a long distance res with a debuff, it provides a really neat and varying sense of preservation for the player. As Guild Wars was a very group-oriented game, it was very important to have a well structured party. Players who died didn't just give themselves a debuff, they risked hurting their entire party, as a single party member having to run back instead of fighting could easily spell death at higher levels, thus forcing them to either return to town (Where debuffs are wiped, but the mission gets reset) or fight at a severe disadvantage. And the longer players fought without dying, the more they risked losing via a loss in Morale Boost.

It's a system that is both forgiving and unforgiving: Forgiving in the sense that death does not necessarily mean you've failed the mission, but unforgiving in a Catch-22 sense that dying just makes you weaker the next time you come back, meaning your chances of dying on the same encounter have increased. It's a system that punishes recklessness and rewards careful methodical tactics and planning. It forces you to pick your fights wisely and know when to cut and run.

I'm not sure how it could be applied in Sui Generis, but it never hurts to know about some of the options out there

 

[Komuflage]

it was 60%

It was a good system for that game, but since SG is open world I don't think it'll do well. Also since you most likely won't have HP I dunno how it would work. But as you said, options never hurt.

 

[the0thMonkey]

As was mentioned earlier, I think losing your equipment and a thaumaturgic debuff should be pretty balanced. Assuming you can't cheat the system using extraplanar storage, you'll spawn with no stuff. Having no armor and only your fists to defend yourself until you can find some gear, is a pretty big temporarydebuff in my opinion. If you respawned with gear but had a debuff, it would have the same effect. Overall, I think the system they have in place for respawning should be pretty fair.

Who knows? Maybe after you die you could travel to a village where the local shopkeeper owes you a favour, and he could lend you some equipment. Even just mechanics to cope with the penalty for dying could be pretty complex.

 

[muxor]

Perhaps you wake up on a stretcher in some makeshift hospital, after all, we are apparently just a fart in the wind.

 

[Komuflage]

Perhaps you wake up on a stretcher in some makeshift hospital, after all, we are apparently just a fart in the wind.

Well, yea, that makes sense

 

[muxor]

the game world doesnt care if you live or die so just get used to it haha.

 

[muxor]

If an ogre owns you, prepare to be raped and pillaged. Bring it on.