Exanima gaining traction!

[ZaratanCho]

That doesn't mean he read it, judging by the article he did not, or the controls either. Saying he found out tab is combat ''purely by accident''. And many more such things throughout.

This article doesn't say anything they don't know about and digging for a potentially constructive part in that type of 'opinions' is not productive(large amounts of text with barely anything constructive or meaningful in there). Article is clearly not meant to be constructive it's someone writing up his experience of the game.

I don't know how the gameplay can be made to function as intended without an inventory but if you do, well sounds good to me. ;d

 

[Madoc]

is the kind of stuff we all think sometimes, but it is not the way to respond in public, especially by someone in an important and relevant position. Your words carry weight, whether you like it or not .

That was kind of my point. The article is basically just slander. You might have noticed all the screenshots are artificially faded and desaturated. The only way I see that happening is if it was done deliberately. It opens with: "What’s it like? I’ll charitably say ‘needs work’." And then continues with a long series of gratuitous negativity stated factually even when it is completely false. He also goes into long rants about things as if they were ridiculous when they're not only perfectly fine but completely standard in the genre.

All I see is anger and malicious intent. If you don't see this then maybe you should read it again, it's pretty much just sarcasm and lies. I don't see what the problem is with my expressing that I think the article is rubbish.

 

[Murf]

I did not notice about the desaturation with the pics. That's is def not cool to be altering the images like that just to make your point seem valid. Prob right @ZaratanCho even though he posted about the guide, probably did not even read it if he is willing to alter images.

 

[Daniel Engenström]

That was kind of my point. The article is basically just slander. You might have noticed all the screenshots are artificially faded and desaturated. The only way I see that happening is if it was done deliberately. It opens with: "What’s it like? I’ll charitably say ‘needs work’." And then continues with a long series of gratuitous negativity stated factually even when it is completely false. He also goes into long rants about things as if they were ridiculous when they're not only perfectly fine but completely standard in the genre.

All I see is anger and malicious intent. If you don't see this then maybe you should read it again, it's pretty much just sarcasm and lies. I don't see what the problem is with my expressing that I think the article is rubbish.

You should read the second impression again, Madoc. it ends positive.

Taken from the article:
In conclusion, I stand by my first impressions, but with the added caveat that I’m much more confident than I was that the frustrations I experienced won’t be reflected in the finished product. The physics are everything the dev team promised and the graphics engine is pretty, smooth and leave me really quite desperate to experience it in a wider range of settings than dank corridors. What we’ve seen with Exanima is solid proof that Bare Mettle have made real progress on a very interesting game and the promises they built their successful kickstarter on are being comprehensively met. With everything still to be added Sui Generis is definitely something to watch.

tldr: I’m no longer worried I wasted my money on their kickstarter. Bring on the game. But seriously guys, take a moment to really look at the user experience before it gets too late.

 

[Valok]

That was kind of my point. The article is basically just slander. You might have noticed all the screenshots are artificially faded and desaturated. The only way I see that happening is if it was done deliberately. It opens with: "What’s it like? I’ll charitably say ‘needs work’." And then continues with a long series of gratuitous negativity stated factually even when it is completely false. He also goes into long rants about things as if they were ridiculous when they're not only perfectly fine but completely standard in the genre.

All I see is anger and malicious intent. If you don't see this then maybe you should read it again, it's pretty much just sarcasm and lies. I don't see what the problem is with my expressing that I think the article is rubbish.

Read the hole thing and overall I agree with you. Still there is something that I would like to say here which at first I was planning to post on the "Steam Launch Suggestions" on the Insider forums but I did not had the time to really do it when you created the topic.

Make no mistake (Madoc and team), when the game reaches "release" and the steam forums you will have opened the gates of Hell. Your game will be bashed, crushed, mutilated and there's also a small chance of death threats for all your guys.

Fair? Not by any means. Especially when considering what you and the team probably had to go through to get the game where it is now. Unfortunately however this is how our gaming world (and internet in general) is right now. Pretty much every single gaming forum and the media is filled with this.

There's not much he says that I don't consider simply false or inaccurate. Just sounds like someone struggling with anger issues that doesn't have anything meaningful to say.

While I agree with what you said here and while you definetly has the right to say it, comments like this on forums/etc can snowball really fast. Forum drama has become a hobby for a lot of people lately and all that's needed to start it is a very small push.

While there are certainly games/developers/companies that deserve the wrath of the internet the truth is that usually everyone gets hit by it, and Exanima/Sui Genesis are the next ones on the list. Because of all that I would, personally, advise caution with comments like the one above (people will just say that you can't take "criticism" and start bashing even harder - which in a moment of anger or if there's profanity involved could result in bans and then it will come the inevitable "censoring devs" comments and hateful "reviews", etc). All in all it is a hole on the ground that keeps going deeper and deeper.

So, how can you folks deal with this problem? I honestly don't know (specially considering how close the team is to the game, reading "criticism" will certainly not be easy). I've seen some Developers that manage to maintain a certain occasional contact with the users on the forums while others just completely abandon in. From all the forums I've followed very few had actual developers/users direct interaction.

But at any rate, looking foward for the release!

 

[Holy.Death]

I think the golden rule proves itself true: the truth lies in the middle.

The first article gives good enough preview how a regular player with little to no knowledge of Exanima might find himself when thrown into the game. Exanima does need better introduction into the controls. That's the one of the most important things to think through, because it impacts the rest of the experience, especially the first impression. I hope you have something in mind when it comes to a proper tutorial.

 

[Madoc]

Hold on a minute. Someone posts a link on our forums to an article that contains a whole bunch of lies about our game and I'm supposed to not point it out? What should I do? Pretend it's accurate? Let people believe it? That article isn't just wrong, it's actually illegal, and for good reason!

We communicate and this is part of it. We answer criticism and feedback where it's appropriate, and we might also point out when someone just says something false.

Of course there's some truth even in libel but that hardly justifies it. Let's be realistic.

 

[Holy.Death]

Illegal? How so?

I am puzzled, because from my point of view the reviewer simply seems confused by the controls and that's something I can understand. Everything that was written can be explained by said inexperience. I am better only because I took my time and played many long hours of combat beta, so I learned in advance how to control my character properly (both in and out of combat) and thus my experience was dramatically better.

Maybe there is malice I just fail to notice, but I follow the rule to not attribute a bad intent where it can be explained by sheer inexperience (Hanlon's Razor).

 

[Mr_FauxPas]

I understand where are you coming from Madoc, but @Valok and @-Tim- have a point. With the imminent release a lot more people will have access to this game. Some of them will be pretty... 'negative' towards your game, and might have a malicious intent.

You are right to point out lies and stuff like that, but you have to be careful not to cross the line and to NOT personally attack the guy with malicious intent. (I know you didn't, but still it was close. And that action can be misinterpreted).
You have a position, your words carry weight. People will misinterpret what you say, and a lot of information will be passed through opinions of other people. And you can't do much about this. That's the internet.

If you plan to fight misinformation, try to save your strength only for influential 'players'. I think a lot of people appreciate your game, appreciate the fact that you try to push the RPG standard further, and admire you for the standard of work. Try not to focus too much on some malicious nay-sayers

 

[Scarecrow]

@Holy.Death
Madoc mentioned that the screenshots in the article seems altered (for the worse). This gives a missrepresentative impression of the product, which I think is illegal to do. The laws for this would vary from country to country though, I suppose. Just me guessing here.

The reviewer here seems pretty unobjective to the whole thing, which a reviewer really shouldn't be. Its ok to say that the game made you frustrated and what not, tell you what kind of emotions it invoked in this particular person, but it shouldn't be the drive force of an entire review. Being able to look at the game objectively is key, despite your own feelings towards it (That being both positive and negative).

From the article: "That was where I gave up. I’ll go back to it later when my disappointment and frustration has had time to calm down a little. My last attempt was moderately less infuriating than the first two – next time I’ll treat it more like Amnesia and less like, well, an action RPG."

He makes it very clear himself that he's heavily affected by emotions.

The second article (by the same guy) is a lot better though. Here he seems to have calmed down a lot more, and act more objevtively. He still has issues with the game, which is totally fine because no game is for everyone, and no game is perfect.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Madoc]

Yes, publicly making false statements about a product and even doctoring screenshots to make them look worse is called libel and it is illegal. Go figure. I know where you guys are coming from and I know the internet all too well, but this not some random forum comment by gamedevhater1337. Even so I didn't at all take it seriously, I didn't even bother mentioning to the team until this thread escalated into some big discussion, I pointed out that it was just angry trash talk. I didn't want to spend time explaining why, I thought it was pretty obvious. Reading the article I was shaking my head in disbelief at every third word.

Anyway, I'm honestly confused by your interepretation of the article. He makes a closing statement mentioning a tutorial after pages of sarcastic and/or untruthful comments about pretty much every single aspect of the game. He doesn't even really say anything of substance about the controls (or anything else really) besides basically that they suck and struggling to drag a door open to then report that is it done in some difficult way which isn't even true.

The game is hard to master but it's not like the controls are really obscure, they're basic mouse and keyboard stuff. The problem some people were having with the doors was adressed in a patch. A tutorial as described in this thread is just a nice presentation for learning the basic controls. A few lines of text accomplish the same thing just fine. This is an indie game in beta, after all.

A tutorial that actually teaches you to do well in combat would be very difficult to do. It seems equivalent to learning how to become a competitive tennis player after 2 minutes with a computer program. Truth is that we don't even know how we would go about making a comprehensive combat tutorial, the arena combined with some basic guidance currently serve that purpose. The game requires a bit of patience and practice, that's not likely to change much. Good things...

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

Exanima broke 6000 votes and gained over 200 comments today

 

[Anoe]

A tutorial that actually teaches you to do well in combat would be very difficult to do.

No, no, that's not necessary. You described a game as "easy to learn, difficult to master" and thats exactly what most players expect from Sui Generis.
I already regret that I posted link to that article, and my point was, to be clear, "a game that doesn't help the player take a few first steps may receive such emotional and undeserved feedback". I've been looking here and there over the internet for opinions of people unfamiliar with the game, trying to predict what kind of reviews Exanima will get from non-backers. The most asked questions were "how do I get out of the first room?" and "how do I unlock the locked doors?". Thats why I thought it wouldn't be too hard or time consuming to highlight these basic actions using in-game tips or pop-ups or something.

My intention was not to offend anyone with negative and inaccurate article (with which anyone who actually played more than 20 minutes will disagree), but to point out that it is important to feed a new player with basic instructions. Otherwise impatient people will get frustrated and will rant and manipulate the facts trying to downplay the game's quality.

Now that you already answered that it's not your priority, I understand that there are more important things to do, so I'll be waiting patiently for skill system and thaumaturgy, and, hopefully, dialogues.

 

[Vold]

@The negative review... The first one is just full of crap, the second one tries to cover it..

 

[Downstairs Eddie]

That's the problem with 'first impressions' articles. They're often ill-considered and filled with cheap shots. There's no actual information in there about how the game plays, nothing about how combat actually works.

When I was reading it I kept thinking that someone could do the same thing with Dark Souls, which similarly has very little guidance. "I loaded the game and was in a prison for some reason, went down a corridor -- oh I died. Went a bit further, oh I died again. Fought a big demon, oh yeah I died again." It tells you nothing about how the game plays and suggests an unwillingness to learn anything about it.

 

[Don Kanaille]

As someone who played Exanima without looking at any hints beforehand (only experience with the combat beta so far), not being guided was about equal parts really frustrating (not knowing how stuff works) and really satisfying (figuring stuff out). I felt quite accomplished when I opened my first door (lol), realized how to use keys or that you can look inside chests and desks...

I quit in frustratin a few times, but I always came back for more. It certainly adds to the games uniqueness and, somehow, the atmoshpere as well.

 

[RobG]

Hi recently backed the game and have been playing Exanima. Thought I would give some feedback on the things I didn't like

- I get that the darkness adds to the atmosphere but for me the game is way too dark even with the torchlight. It gave me a bit of a headache. The game is beautiful...let me see it!

- The physics are of course really amazing and impressive, however I find it a bit annoying how my guy falls over even with just walking over something relatively simple. For me at least I feel like if I'm walking my character should slightly adjust to obstacles and for instance step over the chair leg/stone etc as walking calmly and carefully but flying over on my ass at the smallest tap or mis-click feels really unrealistic and well pointless. I fell over, I got back up...oh, how frustrating. I fully accept it when my guy is running, I should add, that feels realistic and almost like a punishment for sprinting or rushing, which I like. As it stands a door with step going up would send my char on his arse, imo that's realistic physics creating unrealistic outcomes and reminding me my guy is a computer sprite and not a guy who would obviously step over that obstacle.

- The combat feels very clunky to me. Yes I've read the tutorial and yes I understand how I have to time my swings and movement I understand all that but the move set feels so limited. No lunge? No jab? No rolls? No way to ready my shield for a block or a parry? (other than the default "not doing anything" block) no riposte? Will a rapier be a left then right swing? or a dagger? I feel like there should be a way to change stance and the left right/right left swings for me gets boring really fast and somehow the fact you have to click and hold heightens the sense of frustration and boredom especially as the fights are so long.

- The over the shoulder click for the alt swing can make my guy face the totally wrong direction and lose fights just because of that one small mis-click. I really don't like that function. When I'm trying to focus on my movement it just feels like there should be a better way to do an alt attack rather than force me into mouse movements which will potentially spin my char 180 and kill me. Cant I just hold alt instead?

- There needs to be a way to quickly swap weapons or quickly drop what you are holding the torch/shield/sword juggling is very awkward. Often in the panic of needing to drop my torch and equip my shield I manage to remove my pants and make the world turn dark instead.

- The game has such a steep learning curve at the moment that my honest opinion is this game is intended only for the most elite gamers. Yes I like games to be hard (dark souls one of my favourites) but there is a point where it becomes less of a fun challenge with interesting places to explore and people to talk to and more like a chore. I cant really think of any games this unforgiving and difficult that are successful to a mass audience. We cant all spend hundreds of hours learning a games mechanics. My gaming time is precious and although I like a challenge, a fight which lasts 20 mins, then kills me and sends me back to the start that only has to happen three times and I just don't have time in my life for that.

Right well I want to make it clear that there are many aspects to this game I do really like and I've just focused on things I've personally found frustrating but this post is not intended to be hateful towards the dev or even the game I just know that hearing negative criticism is potentially more useful than me blowing smoke up the a-holes of the devs. I honestly think this game has the potential to be one of the best RPGs of the modern era BUT as it stands I've given up playing, like I imagine many who are casual gamers or not the die hard fans of battle mare would also quit quickly. I am also aware Sui Genaris will avoid some of the issues I've raised (I like the torment esq immortality plan for instance which negates my final point somewhat)

I love RPG games (particularly cRPG) and have played a ton of them in my 30 years on this earth and I know it can be a very fine line between engaging, fun, challenging, and boring laborious and virtually impossible. I really hope the final product looses this elitist feeling I'm get from it right now.

 

[Holy.Death]

I cant really think of any games this unforgiving and difficult that are successful to a mass audience.

Darkest Dungeon? Dark Souls? Day Z?

 

[Madoc]

Hi recently backed the game and have been playing Exanima. Thought I would give some feedback on the things I didn't like
...

Let me try to answer some of your concerns.

The game can be a bit too dark if you're playing in a well lit room. We've been a bit reluctant to because of the potential for abuse and its negative effect on the graphics but we will add a gamma slider, the game does already support gamma but the feature is currently not exposed to users.

Im surprised you're falling over while walking but this is something that needs a bit more work. It does not currently use the same level of physics simulation as combat but we plan on bringing it closer to it.

You can currently lunge, thrusts need a little more work before we include them and rolls... Well, they're mostly just silly. I assume you're already familiar with overheads? We're also working on introducing other combat manoeuvres such as bashes and hooks / pulls. The blocking in our opinion works just fine as it is, it's just not a simple mechanical block. The combat has a whole lot of depth to it even now but it takes a lot of practice, there's really a lot you can do with proper use of the physics and controls.

I'm assuming you mean the LtR swing. If you're spinning around then you're not doing it right. I suggest you spend a little time practicing it while you're not being attacked.

We've considered quick weapon swapping but for the time being decided against it. Later we may introduce other features that allow it and also justify the ability to do so. Note that later in the game the whole torch swapping issues becomes somewhat redundant.

The game has a steep learning curve, yes. It's hard to imagine how this particular game could not be without also being shallow and repetitive. Mostly you need to actively pursue improvement rather than doing the same thing over and over and hope to somehow get better at it. If you're not doing well then you're probably doing something wrong and you need to try something else. Once you've mastered the combat fights against lightly armoured opponents rarely last more than few seconds. You should use the arena to practice and in the main game mode perhaps avoid combat until you've managed to find some better gear.

 

[Don Kanaille]

rolls... Well, they're mostly just silly.

Thanks Madoc! My personal pet peeve is that there will be no combat dodge rolls in this game for this very reason. They are... so.... gamey! Can you really imagine two knights fighting on a battlefield and one of them starts rolling on the floor - as a combat maneuver!?

Spoiler

@Rob: Glad you took the time to write this all down! The game is very specific in many ways so you can expect it to grind against many video game clichees when compared to most other games. Learning it actually is a great part of the experience, at least for now. Especially the combat has already a lot of nuances... yes, you can already do ripostes.
I´d hope you stay on it despite te trouble and that Madoc´s post could help you a bit.