My SG wishlist

[Pilluminati]

Here's a little list of things I either want or don't want in SG (mostly don't ).
Some things are already covered I know, I'm just including them for fun =).

1. RNG
Critical hits, percentage chance of miss, evasion chance, etc.
Are we playing a game where skill is rewarded or just rolling a die?
It amazes me that even some competitive PvP games have it.
I hope that SG will rely on player skill instead of a die when determining the damage.

2. Level scaling
When you start with 3 DPS and in 30 levels it's thousands of times the initial amount you know something is wrong.
I hope the gains for having a more developed character won't be too big.
Game doesn't feel like a grindfest.
Good equipment feels a lot more special.
"Lower level" content isn't rendered useless.
More realistic.

3. Blind NPCs
The distance for the NPC "seeing" you shoud be much much much further than what todays games have.
Huge immersion breaker. Sneaking is also way too easy in most games.

4. Easy stealing
Way too rewarding and easy in most games. Game loses it's point. *COUGH* SKYRIM

5. Depth vs Accessibility?
Many people think that making a game more accessible means dumbing it down.
This is simply not true. It's just how the majority of games do it, because it's easier than designing stuff cleverly & intuitively.
A game being complex doesn't equal to it having depth.

Bad example of an ability:
"Deals 200 fire damage + 20 frost damage for 4.5 seconds to the target, steals 8% of the targets current hp when effect ends and applies a 13% movement speed debuff for 4 seconds"

Simple stuff like the force push showcased in the kickstarter vid aren't just easier to learn/understand. They are much funnier to use and offer more depth for the advanced players than the example above.
Mind controlling? Simple, extremely fun & dynamic, lots of depth.
A dash? Same thing.
Dynamic is the word. Luckily this and physics based abilities usually go hand in hand.

6. Lifeless Cities & NPCs
Five people on the streets despite there being a ton of houses. Someone stands still in front of a building forever and is only there for you to interact with. Just no.

7. Ridiculous amounts of loot
While I hope that everything we see is collectable, I don't want monsters to drop thousands of coins and weapons out of nowhere.
This is just tedious, having to click through everything and sort it.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Sounds like Sui Generis, i think. ; )

 

[Komuflage]

"Dice"

Other than that, it seems it will be pretty much like you say.

I guess not the loot part though, since you can loot everything from a npc you kill.

 

[Pilluminati]

Sounds like Sui Generis, i think. ; )

I hope so, but you never know about the RNG part for example.
If a weapon deals 45-46 dmg, it's RNG albeit on a very small scale.
RPGs tend to have a lot of RNG in their abilities. I'm hoping they could get rid of entirely for stuff like combat, lockpicking, pickpocketing, because it removes skill from the game.

"Dice"

Other than that, it seems it will be pretty much like you say.

I guess not the loot part though, since you can loot everything from a npc you kill.

Oxforddictionaries:
Definition of die
noun

• 1singular form of dice.

I meant with the loot part that everything the NPC is carrying should be lootable, but stuff shouldn't just pop out of nowhere. A rat shouldn't drop a sword for example.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Well, rng kind of exists - luck. Sometimes you can get lucky even if your conscious level of skill is not that high. Of course, this is very subtle to put into a "game". I understand what your concern is and i mostly agree. Aside from that i am completely sure that whatever "rng" there is , it will never be much or that significant, if you are skilled and smart you will "win". There won't be things like, level up dex stat and you get 35% crit chance and alike. Since it is physics driven dmg is calculated differently from other games, it is not just "This sword is 45-50 dmg, that is what you hit for(plus stat multipliers and alike)". How you hit, where you aim.... ah Useless me. ;D

It will be a skill based game. Don't worry too much. I am confident in the team. ;D

 

[Komuflage]

"The student becomes the teacher"

Anyways, one rng that will exist in the game is the auto attack/standard attack

when you press or hold LMB your character will chose one of x numbers of swings to perform.
So if I understand it correctly, if you aim at some ones right arm and press lmb, you might slash from right to left, thus hitting the arm first, and maybe cut it of, or from left to right, thus hitting the chest first.

 

[Pilluminati]

"The student becomes the teacher"

Anyways, one rng that will exist in the game is the auto attack/standard attack

when you press or hold LMB your character will chose one of x numbers of swings to perform.
So if I understand it correctly, if you aim at some ones right arm and press lmb, you might slash from right to left, thus hitting the arm first, and maybe cut it of, or from left to right, thus hitting the chest first.

Yeah I read that somewhere and it kind of worries me. I hope the the attack is determined by other factors like what foot you're standing on or which one is in front of you and not just pure luck.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Yeah, we will see. You will have some other moves that you will be able to do aside from "auto attack", as far as i remember. Like stabbing with a sword or rapier.

 

[tiny lampe]

when you press or hold LMB your character will chose one of x numbers of swings to perform.

Can you please point me to the post/video where this was stated?

In the public videos I watched I never saw this behavior. What I've seen (and remember reading) is the following:

1. How a swing is executed depends on character's movement (ex: a character who is stationary and a character who is moving forward will not swing their weapons the same way when ressing the attack button. A character who has already slashed from left to right will follow up with a right to left slash because it's quicker etc)

2. The behavior of a weapon swing after the weapon collides with something is entirely driven by physics, thus making the recovery stage of the swing very different depending on whether it clashed against a shield, chainmail armor or simple flesh and bone.

Points 1) and 2) imply that the player can know in advance what will happen after pressing the attack button. Your post, Komuflage, suggests otherwise: it suggests that the player presses the attack button and then an attack animation is randomly picked; it can be anything from a quick thrust to a slow jumping attack. Personally I believe that a system where the player can't precisely choose which attacks to perform and when to perform them is flawed and a recipe for frustration.

 

[ZaratanCho]

That is pretty much what i remember too, Tiny. ;D

 

[Komuflage]

Can you please point me to the post/video where this was stated?

In the public videos I watched I never saw this behavior. What I've seen (and remember reading) is the following:

1. How a swing is executed depends on character's movement (ex: a character who is stationary and a character who is moving forward will not swing their weapons the same way when ressing the attack button. A character who has already slashed from left to right will follow up with a right to left slash because it's quicker etc)

2. The behavior of a weapon swing after the weapon collides with something is entirely driven by physics, thus making the recovery stage of the swing very different depending on whether it clashed against a shield, chainmail armor or simple flesh and bone.

Points 1) and 2) imply that the player can know in advance what will happen after pressing the attack button. Your post, Komuflage, suggests otherwise: it suggests that the player presses the attack button and then an attack animation is randomly picked; it can be anything from a quick thrust to a slow jumping attack. Personally I believe that a system where the player can't precisely choose which attacks to perform and when to perform them is flawed and a recipe for frustration.

No I don't suggest that it can be anything from a quick thrust to a slow jumping attack.
(In order to perform a thrust u've to press a specific key comb, like SHIFT LMB, and a jumping attack might be SPACE W LMB)
I'm talking about the normal "auto attack" here (normal slashes with a sword for instance)

I think it was mentioned in one of the videos, give me a min and I can look it up

Kieran on combat

"As the combat is at the moment, we only have swinging weapons. Every attack is chosen out of a set at random, and while each have their perks, it's up to you to react and adjust your aim, or even cancel it (by simply letting go of the mouse button) in favour of parrying."

Again, this is only for "basic attacks", not special moves like jumping attacks etc.

and ofc "A character who has already slashed from left to right will follow up with a right to left slash because it's quicker" wouldn't make sense otherwise.

 

[tiny lampe]

Yes, I was using extreme examples to illustrate my point. My concern is to what extent this 'auto-attack' can be unpredictable. A necessary condition to be effective in combat is, I believe, to be able to know very precisely what will happen when you press the attack button.

Thank you for taking the time to look this up for me. Appreciated ^^

 

[Komuflage]

Yes, I was using extreme examples to illustrate my point. My concern is to what extent this 'auto-attack' can be unpredictable. A necessary condition to be effective in combat is, I believe, to be able to know very precisely what will happen when you press the attack button.

Thank you for taking the time to look this up for me. Appreciated ^^

Ah ok, well I'm quite sure it's only basic attack, and with that I mean things like a L to R/R to L slash with a sword (and I guess from somewhat different angles.)

1:40, this is what I mean with "Basic attacks" (However in Demon's souls that weapon only have 2 animations, but it shows some standard slashing attacks from different angles.)

 

[Cooper Holt]

Ah ok, well I'm quite sure it's only basic attack, and with that I mean things like a L to R/R to L slash with a sword (and I guess from somewhat different angles.)

this is what I mean with "Basic attacks" (However in Demon's souls that weapon only have 2 animations, but it shows some standard slashing attacks from different angles.)

Something I wouldn't want in Sui Generis would be for the AI of NPC's with ranged weapons to be like that of the crossbowmen shown in the video. They stop shooting when you get close and, instead of moving toward more stable ground, they stay on the edge of the wall. If you get attacked at the edge of a cliff like that, you'll fall.

 

[Komuflage]

Something I wouldn't want in Sui Generis would be for the AI of NPC's with ranged weapons to be like that of the crossbowmen shown in the video. They stop shooting when you get close and, instead of moving toward more stable ground, they stay on the edge of the wall. If you get attacked at the edge of a cliff like that, you'll fall.

Im quite sure the AI in SG will be smarter, the point of the video was only to show what I meant with Auto/Standard/Basic attack.

 

[Madoc]

Standard swings always start with right to left, if you don't release LMB you will follow it up with a left to right swing. There are 3 basic arcs for each swing direction which are chosen pseudo randomly but the peak of each of these arcs (which corresponds to the cursor position) always lands in the same place. What varies is whether you reach the point with a strike from slightly above, slightly below or level.

You can't really do very accurate targeting with swings (you will be able to with other attacks) but the arcs are quite similar and it's mostly about manoeuvering and turning your character so that a particular point in your arc will get past their defences. Heh, it's very hard to explain, you really just have to try it. It's unlike any other game because the physics play such a huge role. The weight of a weapon can have a massive effect on how your character moves and how you must wield it to be effective. A shortsword and a maul play completely differently, a really good blow with a maul requires you to literally throw its weight at your opponent, it feels like you put your back into it.

Damage is not subject to RNG but there are so many factors involved in calculating it that it can vary quite dramatically. Even though you're not aware of exactly what's going on it generally makes sense, it's a result of where you hit someone and with how much force.

 

[Pilluminati]

You can't really do very accurate targeting with swings (you will be able to with other attacks) but the arcs are quite similar and it's mostly about manoeuvering and turning your character so that a particular point in your arc will get past their defences. Heh, it's very hard to explain, you really just have to try it. It's unlike any other game because the physics play such a huge role. The weight of a weapon can have a massive effect on how your character moves and how you must wield it to be effective. A shortsword and a maul play completely differently, a really good blow with a maul requires you to literally throw its weight at your opponent, it feels like you put your back into it.

Would it be possible to have the arcs determined by the physics instead of being randomized so you could have some control over them?
What's the purpose of having different arcs if they aren't determined by physics? Why is one arc not enough? Because of eye candy?

 

[tiny lampe]

Thank you very much for this post Madoc. Very reassuring. I'm also looking forward to future explanations on the topic of how to add more or less force to your attacks. I understand that it depends on character movement but I feel I don't have a good understanding of how it actually works.

 

[ZaratanCho]

We probably won't have a real understanding until we play the game ourselves, as it has been mentioned a few times. ;D

You will have some control over the normal attack, but for real precision you will rely on seperate moves. We still don't know exact details. When they release a video with those features it will be alot more clear.

I can see how this will work, and i am sure it will be unique and just awesome.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Standard swings always start with right to left, if you don't release LMB you will follow it up with a left to right swing. There are 3 basic arcs for each swing direction which are chosen pseudo randomly but the peak of each of these arcs (which corresponds to the cursor position) always lands in the same place. What varies is whether you reach the point with a strike from slightly above, slightly below or level.

You can't really do very accurate targeting with swings (you will be able to with other attacks) but the arcs are quite similar and it's mostly about manoeuvering and turning your character so that a particular point in your arc will get past their defences. Heh, it's very hard to explain, you really just have to try it.

Awesome!
I'm excited to see how the stabbing/thrusting mechanics play out.