Coffee Diary 29/3/21

Zetheros

Developer
Hey Exanimates,

We've made good progress on making procedural weapons functional in game. We're generating working weapons inside the game, which are then persistent, they have quality and condition and we have development UIs to configure their randomisation. We've also updated some of our weapon specific procedural materials as the whole system has evolved since we first made these. There's only a few small things left to do before we can start introducing some in the beta and get some feedback. Once the core systems are smoothed out we'll be looking at gameplay implications more closely, how components and deformations should affect stats, possible weapon traits, updating some aspects of the damage model, and of course multiple grips on weapons where appropriate.

Here's some screenshots of some in game procedural swords:





The way we've approached the implementation this is more a general procedural object feature, not just weapons. Some obvious examples could be books or keys. This isn't just a tool for randomisation, it's a way to make each item feel unique, to add a huge variety that wouldn't otherwise be possible and to design specific items in just a few clicks. This has huge applications in content design, and in a future where we make content creation tools available, people will be able to quickly design high quality unique items and themes to fit their narrative.

For some time now we've been talking about overhauling the UI, to get away from that PC software look, make it more immersive and fitting. Our more recent thaumaturgy UI was a step in the right direction, we want to do something similar with the skills, and also remove the paperdoll in favour of a hybrid inventory / inspect mode which simply zooms into your character and immediate surroundings. Recently with all the graphical improvements, especially the upcoming weapons, we've also been looking for ways to see items in more detail.

We've been through various mock-ups and concepts for a new interface look, with the insiders giving us feedback and contributing their own ideas. We haven't been too happy with anything until now. We need something simple and clean, that fits with other UIs and still supports more complex interfaces. We've been through a few more iterations this week, and we think we may have finally found an aesthetic we're happy with. Here's a mock-up of a description window:



We think this is a versatile look we can work with, let us know what you think about the planned changes.

Those are the main things this week, but we're working on some other stuff too and fixing some things up for another beta patch to go with the first procedural weapons, hopefully in the next few days.

Have a great week!
-the BM team
 

Midcal9

Member
The issue of many, if not most of these swords being overly bulky in appearance has been brought up by me before but I can not help myself not to repeat it. Judging by the look of it I will most likely not be able to find a single sword that I will like during most of my playthroughs.

Will you at least leave a few current sword models in the future such as Level 6 one handed sword or is it gonna get randomized into a "short bulky hand and halfer"?

This is just kind of unfair guys, especially considering that crafting your own sword, or lets say assembling it from found parts might not be something you will add to the game.

Here is my final wish, if you're going to brush everything I've said aside then at least tell me which dev has this kink for short and bulky club-swords? Can I at least know the name of my archnemesis who commits these crimes against fashion?
 

Madoc

Project Lead
The issue of many, if not most of these swords being overly bulky in appearance has been brought up by me before but I can not help myself not to repeat it. Judging by the look of it I will most likely not be able to find a single sword that I will like during most of my playthroughs.

Will you at least leave a few current sword models in the future such as Level 6 one handed sword or is it gonna get randomized into a "short bulky hand and halfer"?

This is just kind of unfair guys, especially considering that crafting your own sword, or lets say assembling it from found parts might not be something you will add to the game.

Here is my final wish, if you're going to brush everything I've said aside then at least tell me which dev has this kink for short and bulky club-swords? Can I at least know the name of my archnemesis who commits these crimes against fashion?
This is still our very first iteration of arming swords, there are numerous adjustments we still want to make, but we haven't made any yet. We are focusing on making the systems functional and covering a massive range of weapons, not fine tuning individual assets. Even so, I'm assuming you're just referring to the thickness of some guards in the direction of the blade, and you seem keen on exaggerating the problem. Many of these swords are a near exact match in proportions to real historical examples, calling them "club-swords" is frankly a bit ridiculous.

We're a very small team and are constantly overwhelmed by the amount of work we need to do, this is a very complex system with dynamically assembled and deformed models, it will need some iteration. We don't always get things exactly right first time, and for obvious reasons we avoid fine tuning things until they are functionally complete. We are trying to dynamically modify many assets to be used across a wide range of weapons (e.g. from dagger to longsword), when we have a clear idea of what the requirements are we will make any final adjustments as well as develop a more expansive and complete set of assets.
 

Midcal9

Member
Thank you very much for your speedy reply Master Chief Developer Commander! All Hail Madoc Optimus Maximus!

Even so, I'm assuming you're just referring to the thickness of some guards in the direction of the blade, and you seem keen on exaggerating the problem. Many of these swords are a near exact match in proportions to real historical examples, calling them "club-swords" is frankly a bit ridiculous.
I'm referring to those new models having what would be at most a 78cm-72cm long blades (that's a one handed sword blade length most of the time) with hand and half long grips with either too large or too small pommels. When a certain type of ratio or component balance is off, and a sword is an amalgamation of numerous parts which all ought to fit each other in terms of their own size and mass, you get a clumsy looking product.

If you were to ask Tod from Tod's stuff or Peter Johnsson from Albion Swords about your design they would most likely say that most of your sword components are "okay" or even good but it seems as if someone took an early 16th century German scent stopper pommel from a two handed sword and stuck it on a mid 15th century one hander which sports a really thick guard. Well made swords were never assembled like Lego, and there is only a certain range of pommels and grip length a certain type of blade can accommodate, or should in any case.

Here is an example of "size harmony";

I just keept looking at them for a while again, yes the ratio of grip to blade length, crossguard thickness and size as well as the pommel size is just off. A bit off, but all of them combined produce a not so beautiful effect.

The cross guards are fairly thick too, but I remember you telling me that you and your team did it for a reason because if they are actually properly scaled then they tend too look like wires on the screen.

Now, unlike you or Zetheros I can not model a sword for a game, nor have I worked tirelessly for years on this project, I just share my somewhat insulting opinions, I'm sorry for that. If I could donate money to your project I would, I keep buying exanima copies for my friends who don't event to play in this game....

Anyways, yes, most of those swords look fairly messy.
We're a very small team and are constantly overwhelmed by the amount of work we need to do, this is a very complex system with dynamically assembled and deformed models, it will need some iteration. We don't always get things exactly right first time, and for obvious reasons we avoid fine tuning things until they are functionally complete. We are trying to dynamically modify many assets to be used across a wide range of weapons (e.g. from dagger to longsword), when we have a clear idea of what the requirements are we will make any final adjustments as well as develop a more expansive and complete set of assets.
Just please keep those original swords in game. Everyone here knows how much of your life you've spent on this game but it doesn't mean I can't call those swords club like, cuz they are! Sorry!

Edit; "We're a very small team and are constantly overwhelmed by the amount of work we need to do "

On second thought if you're really having a hard time then to hell with those swords, never mind I said anything.
 
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Madoc

Project Lead
I thought I perhaps didn't have to explain things further, but currently we're using a shared component pool for completely different sword types. We're aware some of the pommels should only appear on some types, and we do plan to at least separate the pools before going live with them, but while we're developing these it's useful to keep everything together for various reasons.

Most of the base arming swords were literally traced in 3D over photo references of museum pieces, and you can take many (some obvious exceptions as they are) in game models now, place them over such photographs and see that they fit exactly besides some deliberate differences in blade geometry randomisation. I think you might underestimate how varied real swords were, we are also not trying to replicate a very specific medieval sword, or only the finest and most beautiful examples of swords. Yes, sometimes the randomisation gives proportions that are a bit off, I've already explained that they need to be tweaked, normalised and adjusted for different sword types, deformation parameters also need to be adjusted beyond a rough initial guess which is what we have now etc.

Again, we're building a system here for how weapons will work going forward. This is an enormous task that will continue for the forseeable future, we're just trying to get it on its feet and we're happy when we manage to make something functional, we are certainly not a the stage where we're scrutinising (unfinished) work and thinking "hey, you know, that pommel could be a bit larger". You can bet we will, we always do, but it all takes time to do and there's such a huge amount of work to do that I'm sure you can't possibly imagine even when you're not fixating on one detail.

I don't know what else to say besides don't be too nitpicky until we've actually had a chance to do all this. Feedback is one of the things we will be looking for, but it does need to be specific and constructive and not entirely based on an early "look, it works!" screenshot. There's all sorts of balances to strike here, so keep an open mind.
 

Midcal9

Member
I thought I perhaps didn't have to explain things further, but currently we're using a shared component pool for completely different sword types. We're aware some of the pommels should only appear on some types, and we do plan to at least separate the pools before going live with them, but while we're developing these it's useful to keep everything together for various reasons.
Didn't know about it, thanks for telling us that!
Most of the base arming swords were literally traced in 3D over photo references of museum pieces, and you can take many (some obvious exceptions as they are) in game models now, place them over such photographs and see that they fit exactly besides some deliberate differences in blade geometry randomisation. I think you might underestimate how varied real swords were, we are also not trying to replicate a very specific medieval sword, or only the finest and most beautiful examples of swords. Yes, sometimes the randomisation gives proportions that are a bit off, I've already explained that they need to be tweaked, normalised and adjusted for different sword types, deformation parameters also need to be adjusted beyond a rough initial guess which is what we have now etc.
I don't, trust me, I've been to many museums and I have seen a whole myriad of different swords both IRL and on net. You have showed me one of the in game swords which very closely resembled a type XV from a French museum once (with a beefed up crossguard for in game purposes, totally fine). As for the most swords presented in screenshots you have posted there is something off about them, I know I have said this in the past and I am getting on your nerves now, but I just can't unsee it.

Perhaps they weren't scaled correctly? Then again going back and trying to fix that would take too much time.

I would call it component incompatibility, having a fairly long hand and a half grip on a blade which would not have had it historically speaking. On some of those you've got to either shorten the grip to 10 or 11cm long or make the blade at least 8 cm or even 10cm longer. All those small errors build on each other and result in one proper error. A sword with a blade length of 72-78 cm would usually not have a 15-16cm long grip and such a large, strong and wide crossguard. The crossguard/grip area becomes far too dominanat visually wise, blade too short and your pommels are a bit too small...there I go again, I've got to stop.

I'm actually debating on whether I should do an asshole move and make a thread at My Armory and ask people there what they think about your swords. Who knows, maybe I'm the only one who is not happy?
You can bet we will, we always do, but it all takes time to do and there's such a huge amount of work to do that I'm sure you can't possibly imagine even when you're not fixating on one detail.
I know, you can fix them whenever you want, or not fix them at all. I'm just letting you know that there is this one pesky guy who is not happy, but even if left as is I shall accept it. Ahaha.
I don't know what else to say besides don't be too nitpicky until we've actually had a chance to do all this. Feedback is one of the things we will be looking for, but it does need to be specific and constructive and not entirely based on an early "look, it works!" screenshot. There's all sorts of balances to strike here, so keep an open mind.
Well, I know it's gonna sound like the wrong thing to say but I'm giving you my honest feedback, and I really love weapons you've produced for this game so far. However those new models are really rubbing me the wrong way when I look at them.

Thank you for your time you've spent talking to me and good luck!
 
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Cesco

Member
Hi! This is a very tasty update, especially the UI rework! I'd like to share some thoughts on that:

- I really like the semi-transparent background, maybe even more if it was a bit more opaque.
- The X on the right corner seems quite too small, and it also ruins the elegant frame. Why not making it show only when you get the cursor over the panel?
- The thing that most annoy me is that Weight is rappresented in a different way than all the other stats. To me, it doesn't make sense, and I personally prefere having to see a single dot on a line, rather than having to count multiple dots.

Also, it's been already noted for sure, but there's a typo on the weapon's description : )
You're the best, BM team, keep at it!
 

Madoc

Project Lead
On some of those you've got to either shorten the grip to 10 or 11cm long or make the blade at least 8 cm or even 10cm longer. All those small errors build on each other and result in one proper error. A sword with a blade length of 72-78 cm would usually not have a 15-16cm long grip and such a large
Where are you getting these supposed measurements from? On average the swords have a 12cm grip, to fit around gauntleted hands without clipping, the blades are on average just over 80cm. These numbers vary a little, but not all that much, and everything in our game is a bit larger than in real life, as our average character height is about 180cm, which is quite a bit taller than the average medieval person. Everything is pretty much to scale, relatively speaking.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
Hi! This is a very tasty update, especially the UI rework! I'd like to share some thoughts on that:

- I really like the semi-transparent background, maybe even more if it was a bit more opaque.
- The X on the right corner seems quite too small, and it also ruins the elegant frame. Why not making it show only when you get the cursor over the panel?
- The thing that most annoy me is that Weight is rappresented in a different way than all the other stats. To me, it doesn't make sense, and I personally prefere having to see a single dot on a line, rather than having to count multiple dots.

Also, it's been already noted for sure, but there's a typo on the weapon's description : )
You're the best, BM team, keep at it!
We'll be fine tuning stuff like opacity once it's in game and we see how it interacts with different environments, we'll see what we settle on, this was pretty arbitrary.

The X actually only appears when you pin these windows, as they otherwise close just by moving the cursor away. It's really just more of a pin icon and all UI windows can be closed by just right clicking on them anyway. Even so, we can highlight the X and make it interactive in a larger space than the X itself.

The weight display is kind of a remnant of an old and now obsolete ideas about how weapons should work in game. It doesn't really make much sense any more, but then I'm not sure what we'd replace it with. I don't think the dots really fit weight either.
 

Midcal9

Member
Where are you getting these supposed measurements from? On average the swords have a 12cm grip, to fit around gauntleted hands without clipping, the blades are on average just over 80cm. These numbers vary a little, but not all that much, and everything in our game is a bit larger than in real life, as our average character height is about 180cm, which is quite a bit taller than the average medieval person. Everything is pretty much to scale, relatively speaking.
I sense strong distrust in your tone sir. Very Well.

Copies made by modern day famous swordsmith or certain measurements from museums. Average grip length of a mid XVth century arming sword was 10cm long or under. Gauntlets do not actually prevent you from wrapping your hand around a grip that is well sized for your palm. I am 197cm tall, I have normal hand size with rather long fingers and a 10cm grip is actually slightly larger for me than it should be.


Some swords like this one had even smaller grips, roughly 8cm long due to their pommel shape which facilitated your contact with the pommel.



Here is a nice replica made by Peter Johnsson;



This sword's grip length is 9cm long; https://fb.watch/4x_IjQeLWO/

Edit;
On average the swords have a 12cm grip, to fit around gauntleted hands without clipping, the blades are on average just over 80cm.
If those are the measurements of the swords you have shown us today then for whatever reason they do not look like anything I have seen IRL or on NET in terms of their proportions. Look at the measurements of the last sword I have shown you, here is the link;

It doesn't look like anything I see on those screenshots. Everything I see on them is either too large, long or too small. The entire harmony of the design is missing.

Here is a must watch for you, a semi long lecture on sword design given by someone who has measured hundreds of originals;
 
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This is still our very first iteration of arming swords, there are numerous adjustments we still want to make, but we haven't made any yet. We are focusing on making the systems functional and covering a massive range of weapons, not fine tuning individual assets. Even so, I'm assuming you're just referring to the thickness of some guards in the direction of the blade, and you seem keen on exaggerating the problem. Many of these swords are a near exact match in proportions to real historical examples, calling them "club-swords" is frankly a bit ridiculous.

We're a very small team and are constantly overwhelmed by the amount of work we need to do, this is a very complex system with dynamically assembled and deformed models, it will need some iteration. We don't always get things exactly right first time, and for obvious reasons we avoid fine tuning things until they are functionally complete. We are trying to dynamically modify many assets to be used across a wide range of weapons (e.g. from dagger to longsword), when we have a clear idea of what the requirements are we will make any final adjustments as well as develop a more expansive and complete set of assets.
This Midcal kid watches one episode of a youtube "expert" and now thinks he's some sort of sword god. Don't even waste your breath on such an igneramus, the swords look fine great in fact. one even looks almost identical to my norman sword! the only thing i have to say is that the weapons and armor are hundreds of years apart but that doesn't matter because fantasy. my historical reenactment kit is mixed and matched from different time periods anyway still looks good.
 
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