Cameraman quit the job... let's find a new one!

[TURBOBRUH]

So originally this was supposed to be a rant on the plavyer vs npc fairness aspect. About how saying theyre on even ground is a joke since one makes mistakes based on wrong judgemend/reactions while other makes mistakes because of those AND because hes often unable to see, whats going on or execute the intended action. About how the npcs swing the way they want to swing and how they see in the darkness (undead having no problems killing you in absolute darkness -which makes sense- and arena fighters do just fine in the dim lights of that claustrophobic room -which also makes sense considering their point of view; they actually see whats going on most of the time-. About how would 2 players fitght 1v1 if one of them was unable to see whats going on for a couple seconds every once in a while or about the fact than its never truly 1v1- be it arena or dungeon. Its always you versus at least 1 enemy AND the controls/camera. About how those sadistic mechanics wil turn alot of people off, yadda, yadda, yadda...

But ranting alone would do no good, would it?
So instead I wondered how could it be done better. Saw a few suggestions already like Mount and Blade type combat controls for example.
People being against said that it would be too much camera movement during combat, and u cant just slightly move your mouse like in mount and blade since powering up the swings requires more of the mouse movement.

So how about this - OPTION - and I say again totally optional option which noone is forced to use- of a first person/ close zoom in third person mode with mouse controlled direction of attack left/right, move mouse up for thurst, down for overhead with 1 SIMPLE TWEAK - while having the swing mouse button pressed, camera rotation speed slows down but lets say 80-90%, so you barely move it even making a wild horizontal slash.

Are there any chances for such an option? What would be cons of such option? What features would suffer/could not work with this? What other potential problems would it cause?

Another thing I would like to see would be active blocking. Could be alot like it is now, just activated manually and more reliable than it is now since you could move your weapon shield towards the incoming blow with better camera. Would add some more action and immersion to the fighting, rather than holding your cursor in front of enemy and hoping it will work. It might also make shield bash and other cool features more accessible.

Last topic I would like to mention would be the defence itself. I think all weapons should have a chance to crush through block if the attacking "power" is much greater than blocking "power". What i mean by "power" is the weapon weight, connection speed and angle, part of the weapon hitting and obviously physical prowess of the attacker versus those of the one blocking. Lets say we have a skeleton and a big beefy orc warrior (or any other big beefy warrior if you will) fighting, both using mauls. The beefy guy performing an overhead swing should have a pretty good chance of crushing through the block and dealing a big part of the damage. The wimpy skeleton however should not swing too fast or hard. Blocking heavy weapon swung by a weak guy by a heavy weapon held by a stronger guy should favor the stronger. It would obviously favour the big, heavy, slow weapons but hey- thats how they are supposed to work. And you can always just take a step back.

( I've seen heavy blows being able to knock you down even if you defended them, but I did not notice taking any damage, so If the feature is already in game, forgive me)


And speaking of the blocking - I don't think that every undead servant wielding a candlestick should be a master fencer, being able to parry few blow in a row. It's understandable for arena fighters ( which could have their blocking toned down a little bit in my opinion), but not every weapon wielding creature encountered should be a mighty warrior.

Yes, I know, it's a wal of text, but I would really this game to tap into the potential it has, and these few things bug me quite alot.

 

[Solinarius]

About how saying theyre on even ground is a joke since one makes mistakes based on...

Out of context. They are on even ground in the sense that they are constricted to the same systems we are.

Are there any chances for such an option? What would be cons of such option? What features would suffer/could not work with this? What other potential problems would it cause?

It would require adjusting several things, in which, I'm sure would be a great hassle and time-consuming to do so. What we have now isn't even perfect and it's recieved a lot of fine-tuning.

Another thing I would like to see would be active blocking... *SNIP* ...more reliable than it is now since you could move your weapon shield towards the incoming blow... *SNIP* ...rather than holding your cursor in front of enemy and hoping it will work

I'm assuming you meant 'manual' blocking because active blocking would be the same thing we have now, just pushing a button (which I'm grateful that we don't need to). That would open a huge can of worms because the movements are very complex and characters react dynamically to strikes. This is all best left to the custom AI inherent to Exanima's parry system. If you actually did mean "active", well, it somewhat already is because you actively direct where you parry.

It wouldn't be more reliable because it would disrupt the flow of combat (also due to the above). The current system is elegant and simple in use. You don't fix what isn't broken, especially when it blends so well.

If this is how you feel when attempting to parry, it just means you need to take the time to better understand how parrying works.

Spoiler

Do a pacifist session in the arena and study how your character reacts to incoming swings. Stand still and attempt to parry every strike. A good start is 10 in a row. After that, do nothing but attempt to dodge attacks for a minute. Now combine movement with your newfound parry discipline. Once you feel comfortable blocking every strike, add some offense to your defense. Good fundamentals are important in martial arts .

I think all weapons should have a chance to crush through block if the attacking "power" is much greater than blocking "power"... *SNIP* ...The beefy guy performing an overhead swing should have a pretty good chance of crushing through the block and dealing a big part of the damage. Blocking heavy weapon swung by a weak guy by a heavy weapon held by a stronger guy should favor the stronger.

The beefy guy performing an overhead swing should have a pretty good chance of crushing through the block and dealing a big part of the damage...

Blocking and parrying are not the same thing. A proper parry redirects force, making even the most powerful attack useless and there is nothing but parrying in Exanima. Shields, on the other hand, can full-on block but in reality it would hurt like hell and possibly cause injury if done against a heavy weapon like a maul. However, I think even with shields, your character uses parry defense, though I don't recall specifically. It's also best to not introduce chance into controlled, skill-based, physics-based combat. In extreme (and slightly less extreme) cases, like dagger vs. maul, I partially agree with your scenario but the consequences should be driven by physics.

 

[Greenbrog]

Yes you attempt to deflect blows with the shield, but should it block; you will take stamina damage, sometimes quite a bit, but you cannot receive the knockout blow on the shield, you will sit at 0 forever assuming you never actually take a non-shield hit. And to most of the original writer said, no these wouldn't be reasonable "options." You aren't the first and you won't be the last to try and argue that some sort of camera follow mechanic be worked in, and it really boils down to geometry. With a camera always moving or even "mostly" staying at your back you always the the cursor relative to your character from that position, meaning the relationship becomes static and the flow of motion literately boils down to just that perspective, any camera follow will achieve this. With a static camera position the relation ship between the cursor and your character become significantly more dynamic. As the cursor establishes a plane for the imaginary line following you weapons center of mass to pass through.

I'm not saying anyone in this thread doesn't understand how this works. And frankly your approach is refreshing, and because of it I actually read the whole post. I truly appreciate how you presented the idea, and presenting a solution is 1000% better than basically all the other people to broach this subject. Obviously, I don't speak for BM, nor would I try to. BM has on many occasions defended the current control system and gone to say things (now I'm paraphrasing) like we've tested everything and this is how we've gotten it to work best. They know the system takes a long time to learn, it's foreign and it's hard. They've also stated that having a toggle key for defense would over complicate things and require significantly more stress on the engine than the current system. With practice you can and should actually be directing the parry anyway, basically using both the pressed and non-pressed state of the left mouse button as separate functions.

Only 2 undead will try to block/parry, though all the skellies will. Any other thing you might consider blocking from undead is actually a "clash". I've never heard the Devs comment on this, but it seems fitting; and the Devs have stated the Undead besides the 2 mentioned cannot block, so I'm uncertain what you're actually talking about other than the "clashes" I mentioned.Maybe your talking about hitting with the pommel or hands, and that has greatly reduced to completely reduced damage output.

Complaining about how "good" the arena opponents are is, well, not going to get you any sympathy; even if they are in the dark. I'm not saying most or even many, but people beat the expert arena naked, it's certainly very beatable; and it's supposed to be hard. Other than this vision thing the computer still is constrained to the same rules as you the player are, and they do have "eyes" and therefore a field of vision.

Sorry about the text wall, I hate them more than most, but I tried to write this in a way that I could cut and paste it when other people attempt to broach the topic in the future; and maybe it won't be pertinent as the game grows and changes.

 

[Solinarius]

Yes you attempt to deflect blows with the shield, but should it block; you will take stamina damage, sometimes quite a bit, but you cannot receive the knockout blow on the shield, you will sit at 0 forever assuming you never actually take a non-shield hit.

Hey, that's nice to know! I don't know how handy it could be, since even a love tap will have you pushing up daisies. I suppose "deflect" is the accurate term. Thanks . Need to keep that in my vocabulary.

 

[TURBOBRUH]

Thanks for the replies,

Spoiler

I'm assuming you meant 'manual' blocking because active blocking would be the same thing we have now, just pushing a button (which I'm grateful that we don't need to).

Yes, thats what I meant, sorry for not wording it precisely enough from the beggining. Nevertheless it's somewhat minor thing compared to camera issues.

Spoiler

Other than this vision thing the computer still is constrained to the same rules as you the player are

And that is a huge difference. Seeing what your opponent does vs. seeing a wall may very well decide who lives and who dies.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Are there any chances for such an option? What would be cons of such option? What features would suffer/could not work with this? What other potential problems would it cause?

It would require adjusting several things, in which, I'm sure would be a great hassle and time-consuming to do so. What we have now isn't even perfect and it's recieved a lot of fine-tuning.

It would be great if you (or someone else knowledgable on this particular aspect) were able to provide some more specifics, thanks for the input nonetheless.

Spoiler

Blocking and parrying are not the same thing. A proper parry redirects force, making even the most powerful attack useless and there is nothing but parrying in Exanima. Shields, on the other hand, can full-on block but in reality it would hurt like hell and possibly cause injury if done against a heavy weapon like a maul. However, I think even with shields, your character uses parry defense, though I don't recall specifically

I mean crushing through block, not in the situation when the blow force is redirected, because then it would make no sense to crush through, as there would be not enough force to do that. And no, its not parrying exclusively in this game. Sometimes characters don't have enough time to parry so they just hold a weapon in the way of the swing, and THATS when the mechanic should work. And it would be VERY MUCH physics based, since it would compare clashing forces. Also it's not like it would fire too often, since it would require a significant difference between the two. As for the shield block, I think it could use some more polish before we could sum that up (especially overhead "block").

Spoiler

They've also stated that having a toggle key for defense would over complicate things and require significantly more stress on the engine than the current system

Thats is exacly the type of answer I was looking for, thanks. Fine then, not like the parry/block system does too much harm in its current state anyway.

Spoiler

Only 2 undead will try to block/parry, though all the skellies will. Any other thing you might consider blocking from undead is actually a "clash". I've never heard the Devs comment on this, but it seems fitting; and the Devs have stated the Undead besides the 2 mentioned cannot block, so I'm uncertain what you're actually talking about other than the "clashes" I mentioned.Maybe your talking about hitting with the pommel or hands, and that has greatly reduced to completely reduced damage output.

I still think undead are a little too agile and lively in combat, but then again it could be based on what I think they are. So there might be some arguments for them to be so efficient.
As for the parrying skeletons it has alot to do with how they function imo. If theyre somehow see and hear, they might be able to deflect incoming blows - in a rather clusmy manner, they're animated bones after all.
If theyre just able to sense life from some distance however, they should not be able to perform too well, just swing in the direction of what they sense when they get close.

Spoiler

Complaining about how "good" the arena opponents are is, well, not going to get you any sympathy; even if they are in the dark

Well I did not say theyre too good. I said their blocking abilities could be sligthly toned down. Especially shield wielding ones. If you could control the height/angle of the swing, (insted of just left/ right/overhead) for example without crouching in combat (which I find rather cheesy - in reality you could just swing at their legs if opportunity arises), there would be more room to maneuver, but right now its rather tedious fighting them.

@ naked arena runs - if you're so great as to avoid all the blows, it's actually easier with no armor, as you can swing/defend and react faster.

Also this whole conversation made me wonder, whether the modding community (when it comes to life that is) given some tools would be able to fix the controls and/or camera? I've seen mods overhauling/ adding entirely new controls/features in other games, so why not here?

 

[Solinarius]

Spoiler

Other than this vision thing the computer still is constrained to the same rules as you the player are

And that is a huge difference. Seeing what your opponent does vs. seeing a wall may very well decide who lives and who dies.

The camera has room for improvement and I must agree that when walls obstruct the view, things can get very one-sided. That said, you can control the angle of the camera. While the camera limits your ability to control it sometimes, you can always pitch it into a full overhead view and it can always be panned. I'll admit there isn't much room for error when you need to adjust the camera and defend yourself at the same time, but you can adapt with practice.

Spoiler

It would require adjusting several things, in which, I'm sure would be a great hassle and time-consuming to do so. What we have now isn't even perfect and it's recieved a lot of fine-tuning.

It would be great if you (or someone else knowledgable on this particular aspect) were able to provide some more specifics, thanks for the input nonetheless.

Changing the camera angle to a close third-person view that allows you to see long distances could impact performance and require that the rendering of maps be changed and optimized totally separate from the current view. That's no small task, considering the game is already built for the default system. Then there's the control scheme which would also need to be reworked for third-person. You certainly wouldn't be able to parry/deflect attacks as easily as in the current view. Also, people accuse the combat of looking drunk with the current view, imagine how bad it'd be seeing the action of the game world from only a few feet away.

Spoiler

Blocking and parrying are not the same thing. A proper parry redirects force, making even the most powerful attack useless and there is nothing but parrying in Exanima. Shields, on the other hand, can full-on block but in reality it would hurt like hell and possibly cause injury if done against a heavy weapon like a maul. However, I think even with shields, your character uses parry defense, though I don't recall specifically

And no, its not parrying exclusively in this game. Sometimes characters don't have enough time to parry so they just hold a weapon in the way of the swing, and THATS when the mechanic should work.

I see your point and when you put it that way, automatically damaging the character for absorbing the shock wouldn't really fit in this game. Being disarmed would be perfect, though. If you take damage, it should be because you were struck directly by an attack.

Spoiler

Complaining about how "good" the arena opponents are is, well, not going to get you any sympathy; even if they are in the dark

Well I did not say theyre too good. I said their blocking abilities could be sligthly toned down. Especially shield wielding ones. If you could control the height/angle of the swing, (insted of just left/ right/overhead) for example without crouching in combat (which I find rather cheesy - in reality you could just swing at their legs if opportunity arises), there would be more room to maneuver, but right now its rather tedious fighting them

Toning them down would not be doing any favors for anyone, anywhere, regardless of how good or bad a given player is. Whether they use sword and board or a two-handed weapon, it doesn't matter. Once you've begun exploiting advanced techniques, the AI's guard becomes much less effective. The strikes are a lot more dynamic than you may think for there only being three directions. Your footwork and how you draw the swings (not to mention how far you extend) have an enormous impact on attacks angles, speed, and the arc itself.

Also this whole conversation made me wonder, whether the modding community (when it comes to life that is) given some tools would be able to fix the controls and/or camera? I've seen mods overhauling/ adding entirely new controls/features in other games, so why not here?

Well, no community tools tools exist, for one. Two, everything is compiled and therefore, not open to modding. Three, does BM even support modding?

Honestly, modding helps indie games like this so much. It's one of the biggest reasons Starsector has such a dedicated following. Speaking of which, Starsector and Exanima are very similar in quality.

 

[TURBOBRUH]

Spoiler

Changing the camera angle to a close third-person view that allows you to see long distances could impact performance and require that the rendering of maps be changed and optimized totally separate from the current view. That's no small task, considering the game is already built for the default system. Then there's the control scheme which would also need to be reworked for third-person. You certainly wouldn't be able to parry/deflect attacks as easily as in the current view. Also, people accuse the combat of looking drunk with the current view, imagine how bad it'd be seeing the action of the game world from only a few feet away.

While the performance/rendering is a surely valid argument, there could be some ways to reduce it - like having camera angle limit, so it always face a bit down, instead of straight forward (Kinda like in Sacred 2) or putting in some view distance reduction method (like fog or something) or reducing details of distant stuff especially if you cant directly see it (I don't know if this would be possible, but ive seen performance mod for skyrim that reduced texture resolutions while you quickly moved camera around, along with some other features of this sort)

I think redoing control schemes would be possible as well with a few tweak and ideas (like the reduced cam rotation when swinging and such). And if it did not turn out as precise as the current system, if I had an option to switch back and forth to a more intuitive mode, even it it limited some of the more advanced techniques, I would gladly take it.
As for parrying/deflecting, I'm not entirely sure it would be so bad. If there was manual parry/deflect it might be a little more difficult without first person perpesctive, but blocking should be fine. If they kept the current, automatic system, that would not be so much of a problem since all you had to do would still be to face the right direction with your body and your weapon.

And regarding poeple complaning about the animations - I don't think it's more of an issue than struggling with the controls. Part of the reasons they often complain about the animations is the controls - for example camera facing the wrong direction means your controls are inverted. If you forget it during battle you will stumble around even more. Then I would much rather watch the drunk animations up close, having control over them, than from afar trying to move the camera around, and defend myself before that mace hits my face. I can't speak for others, but I do think there would be more people preferring ability to control a less appealingly animated toon, rather than struggle with the prettier one. And finally the animation quality is improving from one update to another, so it will most likely look better further down the road.

Spoiler

I see your point and when you put it that way, automatically damaging the character for absorbing the shock wouldn't really fit in this game. Being disarmed would be perfect, though. If you take damage, it should be because you were struck directly by an attack.

The shock itself would make your arm hurt, and might very well disarm you. But if the attacking weapon pushes far enough to make contact, it should do some damage (lets say overhead axe swing blocked below the blade while the blade still hits you on the head/shoulder. Another thing that might happen is you getting hit by your own shield/weapon as it could not entirely stop the attack. Again you take some damage here.
Also some colisional damage from the environment would be nice- being knocked down and hitting your head against a wall without a helm would mean trouble. And we have all seen those spiky obstacles in the dungeon. They're literally begging for a kick option to get those zombies impaled on them (Dark Messiah anyone).

Spoiler

Toning them down would not be doing any favors for anyone, anywhere, regardless of how good or bad a given player is. Whether they use sword and board or a two-handed weapon, it doesn't matter. Once you've begun exploiting advanced techniques, the AI's guard becomes much less effective. The strikes are a lot more dynamic than you may think for there only being three directions. Your footwork and how you draw the swings (not to mention how far you extend) have an enormous impact on attacks angles, speed, and the arc itself.

Well I won't pursue the nerf thingy too much. I've also not explored the advanced techniques yet (if thats what you meant, if it was exploiting however, I don't think it's a good thing to have to exploit the mechanics to do any good). I see how you can control the arc, force with the footwork and so on, but how do I control the height of horizontal swing? (Let's put crouching aside) I hit them on the legs a few times but never intentionally, maybe I'm missing some know-how here.

Spoiler

Well, no community tools tools exist, for one. Two, everything is compiled and therefore, not open to modding. Three, does BM even support modding?

Honestly, modding helps indie games like this so much. It's one of the biggest reasons Starsector has such a dedicated following. Speaking of which, Starsector and Exanima are very similar in quality.

I don't know much in this area, but is it not like that with most of games? The modding tools would probably be
downloadable after the release (like skyrim creation kit, or warband modding tools), maybe the devs could even share the tools they worked with (if they decided to support modding that is)

I have not seen a game that suffered from having modding support. Can't really think of any downsides here.
And the pros are many. If you buy a single player game without mods, thats it. You pay for it and get what devs made for you. You play for some time, go throught the campaign, explore the easter eggs and move on (most likely). If it has a multiplayer, things look better and people are prone to stay around for longer, make clans etc.
If you have mods however, you get all those for your money AND everything that the community creates -which can be downright spectacular.
There have been soo many games having their lifespans extended drastically by the mdding communities - Tes series, M&B, fallout, Gta, W3.. the list could go on and on.
How many people would still play skyrim or warband today if the vanilla content was all there is? Some probably, but SURELY not as many.
Finally it makes more people want to buy the game- both those who want to play modded content and the modders themselves.
Don't get me wrong, they way things are now, this game is an unpolished diamond. It has alot of potential to fulfill. But with strong modding support, it could be SO much more, its mind-blowing.

 

[Nomad]

An option to change the controls would be nice but I dont want to loose what we have now, because that works great.

The only thing I can think of that I might want is to have - right click for a right-sided swing and left click for a left-sided swing. And the middle-button for a thrust. (where is the thrust attack btw?)

Maybe reduced camera rotation when swinging so to avoid character turning his back to the opponent. That happens to me once a while.

 

[Solinarius]

And regarding poeple complaning about the animations - I don't think it's more of an issue than struggling with the controls. Part of the reasons they often complain about the animations is the controls

That's it exactly and I've seen it firsthand. Simple misunderstanding. Well, maybe not that simple.

Also some colisional damage from the environment would be nice- being knocked down and hitting your head against a wall without a helm would mean trouble. And we have all seen those spiky obstacles in the dungeon. They're literally begging for a kick option to get those zombies impaled on them (Dark Messiah anyone).

The environment's role in combat--especially in a physics heavy game--is important. Dark Messiah is a great example. I can't wait for kicking to be added into mix, myself (I hope it will be, that is).

I've also not explored the advanced techniques yet (if thats what you meant...). I see how you can control the arc, force with the footwork and so on, but how do I control the height of horizontal swing? (Let's put crouching aside) I hit them on the legs a few times but never intentionally, maybe I'm missing some know-how here.

Yes, I meant exploration. It's difficult for me to explain specifics (at this time) on how to finesse horizontal swings but it involves a combination of precise footwork, character angling, and a specific draw of your swings. Weapon choice also plays a role. I'm making a combat training guide that will demonstrate the process, among many other things.

Don't get me wrong, they way things are now, this game is an unpolished diamond. It has alot of potential to fulfill. But with strong modding support, it could be SO much more, its mind-blowing.

Yep. I'd love mod support, if only to see the implementation of high fantasy, archetypal magic. Wizardry 4 lyfe.