Dual wielding

Don Kanaille

Insider
Beat me to it.

Combinations of sword and dagger were historically used as a form of "dual wielding", but not really as a battlefield weapon (and certainly not in the usual way games and fantasy media portray it); more in the case of duels or for personal protection, as a sword and dagger combo can be worn comfortably on your belt. The dagger is not neccesarily used as an offensive weapon here, but as defensive tool to help parrying and binding your enemy´s weapon, similar to a buckler. This can lead to an interesting fighting style, I´m just afraid with the auto-blocking of Exanima etc. that the effort of implementing such a style would be wasted on what turns out to play like a crappy shield (though I hope it doesn´t).

Some good points in video form can be found here

and here:
 
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Scholagladiatoria has many interesting videos and because he is an active in HEMA he is knowledgeable on the subject and actually practices the stuff. He also had posted a couple videos about four months ago touching on the subject.

 

Cpt Dave

Supporter
"16th century onwards" and "civilian situation"

Gunpowder gets invented, muskets become widespread, heavy armor and shields become mostly obsolete, agility is now more important, and that's why rapiers become viable, and that's why you are using a dagger as an offhand instead of a shield which is harder to carry anyway.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to see an armored knight wielding a rapier and a dagger, nor is the rapier going to be very effective against plate armor.

I'm sure it can be done, it probably was done, and if you look hard enough you can probably find some evidence of dual wielding in the medieval era.
But it was not very popular, because it was not very practical. People didn't want to look cool like in the movies, they wanted to live long. If you are using two weapons, you don't have the defense of a shield, nor do you have the reach and power of a two handed weapon.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
I don´t think we disagree with you on that...? Cap, you sound like you are trying to argue for a point we already agreed on. As far as I read into these posts nobody claimed something different. :>
 

J.G. Elmslie

Insider
"16th century onwards" and "civilian situation"

Gunpowder gets invented, muskets become widespread, heavy armor and shields become mostly obsolete, agility is now more important, and that's why rapiers become viable, and that's why you are using a dagger as an offhand instead of a shield which is harder to carry anyway.

I'm pretty sure you're not going to see an armored knight wielding a rapier and a dagger, nor is the rapier going to be very effective against plate armor.

one of these days (ha. haha. hahahahahahahaaaaaaahfuck. when I'm not running around like a demented maniac trying to produce a small armoury's worth of weaponry for my job), I need to write a long essay on the subject of exactly why you don't get Vikings with rapiers. its a really interesting subject, all about the intersection of many different conditions - everything from the infrastructure delivering metal to cities, to the social laws governing them, all make significant impact on what was used, as much as the simple condition of what armour was like - armour is almost as much a product of those criteria too. Its fascinating, but very intricate.

---

Regarding dual wielding as a subject, despite my history fascism inclinations, I'm personally OK with the idea, as long as a number of general conventions are followed - namely.

1: both weapons are single-handed in normal use.
you don't use two great swords of war, or two pole-arms. its just not practical in any way with more than two single-handed longswords - its just too difficult.
Ideally, it should penalise anything that's not "well balanced" - to fight effectively with them, you need them to be using agile weapons.

2: the second weapon is shorter than the primary weapon, unless the primary weapon is also short, in which case, both can be equal.

almost every fighting style with two weapons - japanese katana and wakazachi, genoese rapier and main gauche, indian pata and katar, uses a larger main weapon, and a smaller weapon that's lighter to defend with, that can be occasionally employed to make attacks when the opponent is bound up.
There's a few very unusual exceptions to that - the "case of rapier" is referenced in both Camillo Agrippa (Yes, for those who've watched Princess Bride, THAT Agrippa. As in Agrippa, which helps if the opponent is using Thiabault, since the opponent may use Capo Fero, against Bonetti's defence... Those are all real fencing masters. Though sadly, the film duel, choreographed by the late Bob Anderson, doesnt use any of the real techniques... But I digress) and in Heredia. but that's a very specialised technique for the duel, in very strictly controlled contexts. its also rather static, and visually uninteresting as a fighting style.

3: the two weapons aren't used to attack at the same time - its one of the true historical fighting styles where there is a degree of tempo - an attack is defended against, the weapon is used to bind, the other weapon strikes the bound opponent. you never leapt in swinging both weapons to hit at once - that's a suicidal move.

As long as those situations are followed - not because a historical fighting school used them, but because they're determined by the reality of physics, human ability and co-ordination - then I'm perfectly happy with two weapon use. Two daggers? Yes. Axe and cleaver? why not? Falchion and rondel dagger, one cutting, one stabbing weapon? I'd like to see it.

its when it becomes two huge weapons being spun around and the attack leaping in to hit with both, that two weapons becomes an absurdity.
 

J.G. Elmslie

Insider
Oh, also, Schola Gladiatoria's got some excellent videos. Matt is an excellent historian, thorough in his studies, an expert swordsman, and really knows his stuff. I can heartily endorse his videos. (and his teaching school for any londoners. he's a great guy.)


Lloyd? Not really a reliable source of information. He's got a great talent for coming over very confidently in video, which unfortunately can be mistaken for knowledge on the subjects he enjoys talking about...
 
I would gladly read that essay. I have read several from here http://www.thearma.org/ that are interesting and informational. The martial arts I am studding in, Kali, escrima or arnes, the weapon you use should be about the length of your arm. All three of your points are very reasonable constraints. One of the things that killed Dark Soles for me was the way that it handed dual wielding; using great swords, axes, spears or other large weapons in both hands.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
If it's a skill you can learn, just don't learn the skill then. It's up to you, no one is forcing you to dual wield.

The argument that "it didn't happen on real battlefields" is spurious. We are not playing a soldier in this game, and we are not on a battlefield.

The argument is still not "it didn´t happen on real battlefields, so we don´t want it in the game." We keep mentioning that because it is a very strong indicator that people throughout history did not trust their lives on dual-wielding techniques. When in mortal danger and with the option to choose your weapon beforehand - for example, when going into battle - people did not fight dual-wielding. Which means there are likely very good reasons for that; unless you assume the whole of humanity before you was just incompetent.
So, when you are going to explore a dungeon full of creatures which want to kill you, do you really want to defend your life with that technique which basically nobody used in similar situations unless you have exhausted all other options?

The argument "don´t learn the skill then" is also flawd, because
a) it is still quite unreasonable for other characters, NPCs and enemies besides our avatar to use it and
b) the time implementing this technique could be used for moves which are drastically more common and useful
 

Nynuc

Insider
Dual wielding is indeed still coming, unlockable through a close combat skill technique. We do plan to eventually allow some basic fist fighting but it will never be very effective.

We abandoned the idea RMB for thaumaturgy quite a long time ago, I've mentioned this a few times but it hasn't stuck with people yet. Once we began testing the game more in tight and cluttered environments we decided that a mouse button dedicated to movement all the time was just essential and any control scheme that tried to do away with it was worthless. As it is RMB to move is here to stay and we don't have any plans to make it reassignable. It's actually really nice to use in more open environments too, esp when fighting multiple opponents or really dangerous ones like ogres, what we need to do now is make some aspects of in combat RMB movement more responsive.
Madoc, have you guys ever considered making a martial arts skill with unarmed? It seems in every game hand to hand is basically useless. But it would be awesome to almost specialize in it. Really, REALLY hard, but if you could get your distance and footwork down, It would be awesome to be able to throw high kicks and hard straits to knock people out.
 

Don Kanaille

Insider
Well, unarmed fighting is neat as long as your enemy is unarmed as well. As soon as your opponent has a weapon, you are at a tremendous disadvantage and should probably just get the hell out.

For bar brawls and such, punching and kicking sounds awesome. And given that NPCs in Sui Generis are not generic everybodys, but people with personality - who can die non the less - a "less deadly" combat option would sure come in handy. Would be a shame to only be able to decide between "wuss out" and "use deadly force" with nothing in between.
 

Cpt Dave

Supporter
Oh, also, Schola Gladiatoria's got some excellent videos. Matt is an excellent historian, thorough in his studies, an expert swordsman, and really knows his stuff. I can heartily endorse his videos. (and his teaching school for any londoners. he's a great guy.)


Lloyd? Not really a reliable source of information. He's got a great talent for coming over very confidently in video, which unfortunately can be mistaken for knowledge on the subjects he enjoys talking about...
Ah. It's always easier to attack someone's credibility than his arguments.
 

J.G. Elmslie

Insider
Ah. It's always easier to attack someone's credibility than his arguments.
Erm...

If I were to dismantle Lloyd's "points" and arguments in all his videos, I'd be here for a month and still wouldnt have completed the list, and to be frank, I don't have the time to.

He's a confident speaker. That wasn't "attacking his credibility", it was complimenting his ability to present things in an engaging fashion.

However, he's not a reliable source of information. He uses a lot of anecdotes, often from locations thousands of miles or centuries away from the relevant issue. He regularly makes assumptions that actual martial artists rapidly debunk. As Matt has done on many occasions. The ones on classical arms and armour are better, but plenty of his videos on medieval arms are just flat-out wrong. (one on rondel daggers for instance stands out as a complete farce, I know for a fact that 2 weeks before that was made, he attended a single class on the subject run by an associate of mine - and said to the people there it was the first time he'd ever done any training in the use of the rondel. He proceeded to ignore every single point and detail taught in that class when he made his video.)

He's a great presenter. but he's factually wrong too often for me to ever endorse his videos
 

Pilluminati

Insider
one of these days (ha. haha. hahahahahahahaaaaaaahfuck. when I'm not running around like a demented maniac trying to produce a small armoury's worth of weaponry for my job), I need to write a long essay on the subject of exactly why you don't get Vikings with rapiers. its a really interesting subject, all about the intersection of many different conditions - everything from the infrastructure delivering metal to cities, to the social laws governing them, all make significant impact on what was used, as much as the simple condition of what armour was like - armour is almost as much a product of those criteria too. Its fascinating, but very intricate.

---

Regarding dual wielding as a subject, despite my history fascism inclinations, I'm personally OK with the idea, as long as a number of general conventions are followed - namely.

1: both weapons are single-handed in normal use.
you don't use two great swords of war, or two pole-arms. its just not practical in any way with more than two single-handed longswords - its just too difficult.
Ideally, it should penalise anything that's not "well balanced" - to fight effectively with them, you need them to be using agile weapons.

2: the second weapon is shorter than the primary weapon, unless the primary weapon is also short, in which case, both can be equal.

almost every fighting style with two weapons - japanese katana and wakazachi, genoese rapier and main gauche, indian pata and katar, uses a larger main weapon, and a smaller weapon that's lighter to defend with, that can be occasionally employed to make attacks when the opponent is bound up.
There's a few very unusual exceptions to that - the "case of rapier" is referenced in both Camillo Agrippa (Yes, for those who've watched Princess Bride, THAT Agrippa. As in Agrippa, which helps if the opponent is using Thiabault, since the opponent may use Capo Fero, against Bonetti's defence... Those are all real fencing masters. Though sadly, the film duel, choreographed by the late Bob Anderson, doesnt use any of the real techniques... But I digress) and in Heredia. but that's a very specialised technique for the duel, in very strictly controlled contexts. its also rather static, and visually uninteresting as a fighting style.

3: the two weapons aren't used to attack at the same time - its one of the true historical fighting styles where there is a degree of tempo - an attack is defended against, the weapon is used to bind, the other weapon strikes the bound opponent. you never leapt in swinging both weapons to hit at once - that's a suicidal move.

As long as those situations are followed - not because a historical fighting school used them, but because they're determined by the reality of physics, human ability and co-ordination - then I'm perfectly happy with two weapon use. Two daggers? Yes. Axe and cleaver? why not? Falchion and rondel dagger, one cutting, one stabbing weapon? I'd like to see it.

its when it becomes two huge weapons being spun around and the attack leaping in to hit with both, that two weapons becomes an absurdity.
1: I agree, though it could be interesting to have the option and it clearly being inferior. Could be used to educate people :)
2: Maybe the combat could reflect the advantage of having a second shorter weapon instead of not allowing two long weapons?
3: I think this can be tricky and I can see dual wielding becoming over powered because the game doesn't exactly follow the same rules as real life. Once all the attack moves are in we'll truly see which weapon combinations aren't accurately reflecting real life. I imagine it'll take quite a bit of tweaking to get it right though.

Thanks for the awesome posts btw! Love learning about this stuff and getting all the myths dispelled.
 
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Cpt Dave

Supporter
Erm...

If I were to dismantle Lloyd's "points" and arguments in all his videos, I'd be here for a month and still wouldnt have completed the list, and to be frank, I don't have the time to.

He's a confident speaker. That wasn't "attacking his credibility", it was complimenting his ability to present things in an engaging fashion.

However, he's not a reliable source of information. He uses a lot of anecdotes, often from locations thousands of miles or centuries away from the relevant issue. He regularly makes assumptions that actual martial artists rapidly debunk. As Matt has done on many occasions. The ones on classical arms and armour are better, but plenty of his videos on medieval arms are just flat-out wrong. (one on rondel daggers for instance stands out as a complete farce, I know for a fact that 2 weeks before that was made, he attended a single class on the subject run by an associate of mine - and said to the people there it was the first time he'd ever done any training in the use of the rondel. He proceeded to ignore every single point and detail taught in that class when he made his video.)

He's a great presenter. but he's factually wrong too often for me to ever endorse his videos
So you're not going to watch his video because you just know he is wrong?
 

J.G. Elmslie

Insider
So you're not going to watch his video because you just know he is wrong?
Wow. That's quite the conclusion you've leapt to there. I'm impressed.

I did watch Lloyd's video. Again. Its not the first time I've seen it. and again, like the last time, its 6 more minutes of my life I could've put to better use elsewhere.

Thankfully, Matt has made a video responding to the assortment of ideas Lloyd had, particularly expressing his excellent knowledge on the subject of tempo, time of the hand, the use of the offhand weapon to parry. So hopefully, I wont need to waste more of my time by doing the same thing again.

(and unlike me, he got the origin right of the Italian schools; Bolognese, not Genoese like I said yesterday. See me get my cities mixed up.)

My point remains. Lloyd's videos are
Not really a reliable source of information. He's got a great talent for coming over very confidently in video, which unfortunately can be mistaken for knowledge on the subjects he enjoys talking about
 
Heyo, okay let me get some input in. First, yall are bickering like old ladies at market with nothing better to do but prove whose vegetable tastes sweeter. More how can we make it work please.

Those of us intimate with the system know that this games will never have a flashy combat system, but we can have a realistic not necessarily historically accurate combat system(history is only a guide not a rule book that the devs must follow, magic defeats any argument:cool:). Madoc has already demo'ed and confirmed that dual wielding is in, so can we at least try to put our heads together and think of how it will feasibly work and also be balanced. We can debate all we want but it doesn't help us move forward, any ideas we come up with can potentially help the Devs with ways to implement features. True, ideas can come from argument as well but we can achieve more by working positively together. Some people want dual wielding, and it has some historic base, plus it is physically possible with constraints (No dual wield 2handers).

I have mentioned how equipping and un-equipping????:confused: could work, where you are able to equip a shield/torch/small single hand weapons (dagger,hand-axe,short sword). And recently I have been thinking of how the system could work to be both functionally useful and balanced from a game-play standpoint. Here's what I've come up with;

Each off hand weapon will have a few distinct advantages. But every offhand weapon is mainly used for parrying.

Shields

  • Provides greatest blocking
  • Can be heavy so slower parry speed
  • Shield-bash to unbalance/stun/shift/charge(combined with sprint you could have a shield charge)
  • Through skills will allow blocking without interrupting your swing.
Dagger

  • Provides fastest-speed Parry
  • Cannot block some hits
  • Can be used to stab(same button that would be shield bash) and/or cut
  • Through skills could be used as a 1 time ranged weapon (throw dagger)
Hand-Axe
  • Provides mid-speed parry
  • Can parry strong hits if the head is used
  • Has a strong chop attack
  • Through skills could be used as a 1 time ranged weapon (throw axe)
Short sword
  • Provides mid-fast parry speed
  • Can lead with this hand (this becomes your backhand???) Madoc has show off some dual wielding maybe I should watch it in slow-mo and see how it works there then.
  • Allows fast attack strings as you can use both hands in combo
Reading the whole thread I can see little in the way of talks on how we can make this system work. These are just ideas not even suggestions, if you like some parts, help build the ideas, add, remove, all that matters is that we have the chance to put our heads together and move forward. One of the best RPG experiences is being made and we have the chance to help it along.

Plus I want stairs!!!!:(
 
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Don Kanaille

Insider
Those of us intimate with the system know that this games will never have a flashy combat system, but we can have a realistic not necessarily historically accurate combat system(history is only a guide not a rule book that the devs must follow, magic defeats any argument:cool:
I´m starting to feel like a broken record. "The argument is still not "it didn´t happen on real battlefields, so we don´t want it in the game." We keep mentioning that because it is a very strong indicator that people throughout history did not trust their lives on dual-wielding techniques." If it was a good choice realistically, it would have been a lot more common.

Reading the whole thread I can see little in the way of talks on how we can make this system work.
And that is where the problem comes in: If something just doesnt work that good in real life (at least unless you have lots if finesse, very likely more than a game can emulate), the only way to make it work in the game is by making the game less realistic in that respect, which many of us are not fond of (seemingly, not even you, given your emphasis on the word "realistic). So unless you envision a way of fighting with two weapons that somehow escaped the whole of human history, implementing dual-wielding in a way which makes it not sub-par and not unrealistic at the same time is impossible. Which is, probably, why you don´t see many suggestions going in that direction.
 
I´m starting to feel like a broken record. "The argument is still not "it didn´t happen on real battlefields, so we don´t want it in the game." We keep mentioning that because it is a very strong indicator that people throughout history did not trust their lives on dual-wielding techniques." If it was a good choice realistically, it would have been a lot more common.



And that is where the problem comes in: If something just doesnt work that good in real life (at least unless you have lots if finesse, very likely more than a game can emulate), the only way to make it work in the game is by making the game less realistic in that respect, which many of us are not fond of (seemingly, not even you, given your emphasis on the word "realistic). So unless you envision a way of fighting with two weapons that somehow escaped the whole of human history, implementing dual-wielding in a way which makes it not sub-par and not unrealistic at the same time is impossible. Which is, probably, why you don´t see many suggestions going in that direction.
You just proved my point, u read everything and then took my words out of context to say negative shit. Pls if you do not have something productive to answer do not pull me into your realistic historical melodrama. Magic is not real! So any point of the world of exanima following the history of our world is total bull dung.

I am all for realism, I am trying to bridge the gap between realism/history/gameplay u are standing on 1 edge screaming no u can't come over here. If they decide to add celtic kilts, I bet someone will scream it's not historically accurate to the time line of the game:rolleyes:. Pls base for me where undead are in our history or the underworld,or magic. Mythology, fiction, history they are all inspiration to the game but the game is not held by any constraints.
 
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