Exanima camera in Sui Generis

[Faelivrin]

This have been bothering me for a little while. First of all i want to be clear about one thing, i love the game perspective and i believe the fact it is isometric give it a lot of personality, i understand this is a basic design choice and it is not likely the fundamentals will change. I don't want them to change, but i have been speculating how would SG works with exanima's camera... and i found a couple of things that worries me. I will try to convey the disadvantages that the strict exanima camera would carry in SG and propose an alternative method to overcome said disadvantages.

Exanima camera
I don't know if you all are aware that a little change is coming in regard to the camera zoom. The inventory system is suffering an overhaul, the paperdoll will disappear so you will drag stuff directly over your character instead of the paperdoll. Also when you open the inventory the zoom will increase a little further than we are used to. This is very WIP mockup of how it may look like:

I kinda stole that image posted by Madoc's from his chat stream, so i am sorry if i just did break some NDA. As you see the zoom will increase a little making our lives a lil easier when exploring (just work standing still) and taking tiny objects. For me, this mechanic is sufficient for SG's little dungeoneer brother, for others it may be not enough. 'Why not just increasing the zoom level you can get with the mouse wheel?' they will be asking to themselves. I think the reason Madoc gave is that combat is affected negatively if you zoom in too much. Anyway, this post is not as much about zoom level as it is about camera freedom, so let's be back to the topic.

Sui Generis camera
I am pretty sure all of you have seen the KS pitch video. Around the middle of it, Madoc features the water and the sky, here is what worries me. What's the point of having a neat procedural sky with volumetric clouds, incredible weather effects and a totally awesome night sky with celestial bodies, if the camera is so strict that you cannot even see the horizon line?
I have been under a black depressing roof just too long (figuratively speaking). The first thing i would like to do when i play SG is stare that neat sky for a good while, until the night arrive. I want to inspect those stars and see if i can find some familiar constellation, that could answer some questions about this strange world. If they are not familiar i would try to figure out a way to find the north by looking at the stars, just in case i don't always have access to a compass.
The current camera doen't allows me to do all that, so that's is my concern. It is true that this is a game with isometric perspective, but in my point of view it is not a pure one. This glorious sky have been made to stare it and you wont convince me of the contrary.

Why building an engine that is able to render a practically limitless landmass, if you just can see an small radius of floor around your character? I am good with exanima's camera, but it needs to be more flexible in SG. Maybe i got it all wrong and a completely different camera is planned for SG. However at the end of the day exanima dungeons are a part of SG underworld and we will even revisit them in SG. Why having a different cameras for both then?

Feedback
Obviously the solution isn't granting the player a developer style camera like the one we see in that video. It is great to the point that makes you salivate, but too overpowered for a player with many ways to cheat and spoil.

1 method: I would implement a camera mode fixed in one point in first person or just above his head, this mean you wouldn't be able to "walk" with or without your character. You could however pivot the camera and see what your character sees up down left or right, nothing else. You wont be able to do anything else in that camera but staring.
Pros:

• Greatest freedom and immersion.
• Check out your cleavage.
• How would it feels like "being" in this game? question answered.

Cons:

• More complex system with 3 different camera modes (if we count the inventory camera mode).
• Something about those transparent roofs would have to be done i guess.

2 method: Tie the new perspective to the inventory management, kinda like the incoming overhaul but with more pivoting freedom if you are outdoors.
Pros:

• More simple system, just two camera modes.
• More uniform system. The game could be still considered almost pure isometric. I think.

Cons:

• Higher camera, less personal and immersive.
• Why would i want to "open my backpack", when all i want to do is take a good look around in case i am about to be ambushed.

 

[-Tim-]

Wouldn't a first-person-view be a more logical way to accomplish this?

 

[Pilluminati]

This is just speculation, but since the game was originally going to be 3rd person it seems likely they put so much effort into the sky because of that. Or it could just be Madocs perfectionism since he pointed out in the KS vid that you can see the sky in the reflections

I believe it won't be so simple as to just give the player more camera freedom. It will probably impact performance negatively and make designing the maps harder since you'd have to account for all the new perspectives. And there's more issues ofc, like obstacles blocking the view, etc, etc.

I don't think full freedom is going to work out, but not opposed to having a bit more freedom than currently.

 

[Faelivrin]

Wouldn't a first-person-view be a more logical way to accomplish this?

Yeah sorry, i wanted to say it as an option. But i created the thread too early by mistake . Still modifying things

 

[Mowglia]

What's the point of having a neat procedural sky with volumetric clouds, incredible weather effects and a totally awesome night sky with celestial bodies, if the camera is so strict that you cannot even see the horizon line?

I hope they find a way to include that sky despite the obvious problems, because that is just drop-dead gorgeous.

Gimme a copy of this image without the control box so I can set it as my desktop background. Plz

 

[Tottel]

Madoc also mentions in the KS video that we can't see the sky in-game. It's overkill, he admits, but not useless because you can see the reflections in the water bodies. And I would assume on wet surfaces too.
You would also see all of the ambient and direct light reflected on everything in your view, so there's that too.

I'm pretty sure all their assets are designed to be looked at from the current perspective. Being able to look up or even first-person view would probably reveal a lot of nasty things.
It would also change the gameplay/feel of the game drastically and I don't think that's worth it.

 

[Mowglia]

I know, you're absolutely right.

Yet knowing that sky will be up there and not being able to see it directly makes me sad. It's extraordinary.

 

[Anubis]

Is there anyway we can get a shot of this without the "Environment" window? I don't know about everyone else, but I want this masterpiece framed in gold and hung above my fireplace!

 

[Faelivrin]

I took that one from the kickstarter pitch video. Unluckily the editor window is there most of the time when Madoc shows the sky.

Sadly short after i created this thread, Madoc told us it is very unlikely we will see skies in SG because of some design choices. As far i know he never told us directly what it is, my guess is the AI is made so they see the same range than us. Changing the perspective would mess with that, even if it is in very limited circumstances (i proposed him implementing a static telescope).

Some time after that discussion Madoc said he were working in the night lighting and gifted us with this:

I hope that can work as wallpaper for you guys ^^

 

[Orlacktherof]

Perhaps if we're outside, and only if we're outside, we can look around at the sky. If we end upwalking under some shade, still have the ability, but add a texture to the bottom of that shaded thing. While indoors, just don't let the player look up.

 

[Anubis]

Perhaps if we're outside, and only if we're outside, we can look around at the sky. If we end upwalking under some shade, still have the ability, but add a texture to the bottom of that shaded thing. While indoors, just don't let the player look up.

I agree with this. My thought was something along the lines of an Ocarina of Time type view. Press or hold the key and you get a first person view. This would work only outside, of course.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I think a view like the current character continue screen will be good. While indoors use it like that but when no roof is present allow the character to slightly pitch it upwards and rotate the camera, just *slightly so u can see the horizon and not for looking overhead. As soon as you release middle mouse button it gently levels back on your character.

 

[Orlacktherof]

He did say that the skies were "overkill" in the KS video.

 

[Mikodzi]

@Faelivrin Hope this help, FYI: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/259610/Video_50_common_game_camera_mistakes__and_how_to_fix_them.php