Melee Combat

[Cooper Holt]

This is n the insider forum for a reason.
This thread will be specifically for melee (sword, axe, mace, spear (short-ranged)) combat discussion.
To kick off, I'd just like to say that I like the current combat system, but it needs more depth. After all, it is a prototype, and it has been discussed before; but I thought it needed its own thread.

Talk away, and no running in the halls.

 

[TwoPumpWarrior]

What kind of depth are we looking at for the combat? From the "Combat Explained" video we're told to attack, we simply hold LMB. How does a player parry? Can he direct the attack to get around shields or hit a weak spot in the armor? I don't want this to turn into a "hold LMB to win" system.

On another point, I like the current combat animations. It makes me think of someone who is completely inexperienced in combat and this is their first fight. With more training, they'd steady themselves and fight with more precision eventually becoming a skilled fighter.

 

[Cooper Holt]

/directions

What kind of depth are we looking at for the combat? From the "Combat Explained" video we're told to attack, we simply hold LMB. How does a player parry? Can he direct the attack to get around shields or hit a weak spot in the armor? I don't want this to turn into a "hold LMB to win" system.

On another point, I like the current combat animations. It makes me think of someone who is completely inexperienced in combat and this is their first fight. With more training, they'd steady themselves and fight with more precision eventually becoming a skilled fighter.

The animations would have to be come better as the player became better.
One of the ideas I was discussing with another member, was that it would be fun and immersive if you were able to click, drag in a certain direction and release in order to perform different types/directions of attacks.

 

[Torhque]

What kind of depth are we looking at for the combat? From the "Combat Explained" video we're told to attack, we simply hold LMB. How does a player parry? Can he direct the attack to get around shields or hit a weak spot in the armor? I don't want this to turn into a "hold LMB to win" system.

Hope this helps, I took it from the Kieran on Combat update on the Kickstarter page:

"Every attack is chosen out of a set at random, and while each have their perks, it's up to you to react and adjust your aim, or even cancel it (by simply letting go of the mouse button) in favour of parrying. It makes for very skilful gameplay whilst being hugely dynamic and simple to operate."

On parrying:
"Parrying is automatic, but you're at the mercy of physics, and learning to rotate your character so your parrying arm is better placed to deflect the incoming blow is key."

As for shields:
"Shields will play an important role in defensive melee combat, and instead of providing a static defensive bonus, when you aren't attacking you will adopt a sort of bracing stance. It will be up to you to angle the shield into blows, and allow you to perform bashes and other offensive maneouvres."

And here's a larger comment that Madoc made in the comments section. I recommend reading the whole comment, as I'm only pasting a small section of it for the sake of not cluttering this too much:

"While I understand your concern - and to be honest when we started designing the system it was a concern for me too - the randomness of strikes is not as big an issue as it may first appear. The apex of each strike is exactly where the cursor is when you start a strike, you will never miss a stationary opponent if you simply hover the cursor over them and hold left mouse button. The random factor is the arc of an attack and the location your blow will land. To give you an example, one of the strikes is more of a downward blow, and the peak of the strike hits around the head/neck. With locational damage this could be a particularly lethal attack"

 

[Joe Moore]

This is n the insider forum for a reason.

I'm curious as to the reason you posted this thread here and not in Gameplay section, which is where you got the idea from in the Die By the Sword thread.

Oh.
then I shall create a combat thread. :-D

Which is why I think this thread should be moved to the Gameplay forum.

I mention this because then we start getting into issues where we cross post from Insider Forum into Public Forums and that becomes a mess. An example:

Huh, I recently made a post about respawning NPCs in the character death and resurrection mechanics thread. I'll just post what I wrote there:



Edit: I just realised, the thread I was talking about was in the insider forum, in case you had no idea what I was talking about.

And in that same forum and thread:

@BigT2themax

That seems like a plausible system. It seems like a possible implementation of the system I proposed. I don't have access to the insider forum (no credit card) so I didn't see that before, thanks for sharing.

So it makes having conversations difficult.

This is why, I think, the Insider Forum should be a place for the devs to post items and we discuss it.

 

[MangoMarr]

Madoc has discussed the 'easy to play, difficult to master' style of combat already inherent in their system. I wouldn't pass too much judgement on the combat until you actually give it a go, as Madoc suggests himself.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I've just had an amazing idea.
It is simple, fun, hopefully easy to program, realistic, and doesn't change the combat too-too much.
In combat, hold shift to stab (or tab, ctrl, something that isn't already taken) :-D.

 

[Rod_Lightning]

I've just had an amazing idea.
It is simple, fun, hopefully easy to program, realistic, and doesn't change the combat too-too much.
In combat, hold shift to stab (or tab, ctrl, something that isn't already taken) :-D.

I'm sorry but how is this an 'amazing' idea. How is setting a specific move to a keyboard key 'realistic' and 'fun'? I fail to see the creativity here.

Also I believe one of the devs (possibly Madoc) somewhere mentioned how stabbing was going to work. A specific mouse movement + click or something like that, I can't seem to remember what it was.

Sorry to come over as a bit of a dick but I was just kinda..

all over the place

 

[Cooper Holt]

I'm sorry but how is this an 'amazing' idea. How is setting a specific move to a keyboard key 'realistic' and 'fun'? I fail to see the creativity here.
Sorry to come over as a bit of a dick but I was just kinda..

all over the place

I didn't realize that it had been mentioned before.
I was just offering a reasonable concept paired with a nice little idea.
I didn't say it was creative, I just wanted to contribute my thoughts.
Jeez, man. Cuttin' deep. :/

 

[llehsadam]

Something that really bugs me with sword fighting (in most if not all early medieval games) is that sword on sword action is too important. What actually got me excited about Sui Generis is that blade to blade doesn't really happen all too often. Swords back then were not out of HSS and had poor hardness levels. You did not want your blade to break and you wanted to hit your opponent, not the sword.

I think hitting a better blade with a poor quality sword should break the sword. Of course if you have something like the Ulfberht (check out the NOVA documentary: Secrets of the Viking Sword), you would be able to break the swords of poorly armed opponents rather regularly. High class swords should be able to bend like the Ulfberht.

 

[MrIdontKnow]

I'm going to post this here cooper because its based on melee combat, (hope I don't break your posting rules )

Okay so I've been thinking wbout melee combat and how the player 'levels up' or 'strengthens' with the weapons he uses. Now I find it hard to read through every peice of information, but my idea/discussion is based on this text from the devs.

"There are no levels, but there is a more natural progression system based on skills and thaumaturgic powers. There are no classes, but rather countless possible builds with diverse and interesting qualities."

So this natural progression system we have is very vague, and that's what I want to talk about, nothing to do with the magic system, but it could use the same system. From this statement we can tell that over a period of time of fighting, your character will become depending on what you're doing; harder, better, faster, stronger (the that don't kill me can only....) etc...

This is Sui Generis after all, a game which is focused on depth, so I doubt they will flunk up the combat system, but this is the idea I have for levelling up, and the damage you deal on enemies.

Daggers, One Handed Swords, Two Handed Swords, Fails and Shields will all be in different categories regarding your experience, for example fighting with a dagger is not the same as using a Two Handed Sword. Each categories will increase in experience when you use a weapon in that category. When your experience grows in a category it adds to your overall level.

So lets do a little text table to show what I mean,

Overall Level: 1.9

Dagger: 0.3
One Handed: 0.1
Two Handed: 0.1
Flail: 0.3
Shield: 0.1


So we see above that your overall level is 0.9 because the categories that you have been training add up to 0.9, if it added up to 1.0 your overall level would be 2. This is very basic remember and it's only focused on melee, also it could use more than 1 decimal place.

So that's a general view on how levelling up is. So what do you think, do you have any ideas on how we will level up?

 

[tiny lampe]

This is a summary of the available information on skill progression:

Skills are one of the major aspects of character advancement.

Skills are advanced through practice, to train a particular skill it must see relatively frequent use. Actively training a skill through artificial repetition will not work, progression will remain gradual. This mechanic exists so that players spend more time playing the game and experiencing the world rather than performing repetitive tasks in order to achieve more rapid advancement.

A milestone is granted for reaching each level of expertise beyond Inept*. You will choose from several, further specialising your use of any given skill. Milestones may grant new abilities or improve particular aspects of a skill. As an example, Light Weapons will feature milestones such as Dual Wield and Defensive Fighting. Milestones may be retrained, but this requires retraining the skill from its previous level of expertise.

You will be limited by a global skill total, it will not be possible to train all skills to the highest attainable level. This mechanic exists so that you have to choose a combination of skills to specialise in as part of your "build".

You select which skills to train, untrain or keep at their current level.

Currently planned skills are 8 in total: light weapons, heavy weapons, ranged weapons, shields, armor, insight, concentration and meditation

*The ranks are: inept, aspirant, novice, expert, adept and master.

source: http://www.baremettle.com/sg/about/)

 

[Parco]

Something that really bugs me with sword fighting (in most if not all early medieval games) is that sword on sword action is too important. What actually got me excited about Sui Generis is that blade to blade doesn't really happen all too often. Swords back then were not out of HSS and had poor hardness levels. You did not want your blade to break and you wanted to hit your opponent, not the sword.

I think hitting a better blade with a poor quality sword should break the sword. Of course if you have something like the Ulfberht (check out the NOVA documentary: Secrets of the Viking Sword), you would be able to break the swords of poorly armed opponents rather regularly. High class swords should be able to bend like the Ulfberht.

i agree, if a weapon breaks it should depend on the material, quality and force on impact

"loads of text"

im wondering if we will be able to see our stats or if they are invincible and we have to guess by looking at how the character is performing?
as i imagining it the levels/experience will not only be of what type of weapon, but also what technique youre using, at least i hope we will be able to train different techniques.

 

[Parco]

summary

how did i forget about this, was reading this last friday

 

[Yngvald]

Done properly, an avid, say... sword-and-shield-fighter ought become better at melee martials in general. A little bit better with maces. A little bit better with short swords, maybe daggers. Not as much with spears. And sticking with one weapon, you start to get better control of the balance of it. The more you progress in becoming a master of these arts, the less time to get hang of a particular weapon, especially within your usual range.

That way, you get away from the standard cliché of, "Hey, you're now a one handed sword level 90! But oh, look... you'll still suck with most other weapons :[" Now, whether something like this would be priority I do not know, but from what I've come to love about this team, this is the sort of mechanic that they are going for.
/my 2¢

 

[Madoc]

"Hey, you're now a one handed sword level 90! But oh, look... you'll still suck with most other weapons

This is exactly the kind of thing we're trying to avoid as it's plain silly and hugely restrictive. Originally we were considering putting skills in a tree like structure that would allow you to train in specific skills while having a portion of your training carry over to related or similar skills. In the end we decided this was unnecessarily complex and still a little restrictive so instead we went for light and heavy weapon skills as representative of significantly different fighting styles. Weapons aren't just light or heavy but can be anywhere between the two extremes. We're using skill milestones to further customise your fighting style and these can be implicitly better suited to specific weapons. One milestone we may include is also a preferred weapon type.

One of the things we enjoy most about the combat is trying different weapons as they all play quite differently, the physics means that the shape and mass distribution of a weapon have a significant effect on gameplay. You can develop specific moves and a playstyle based purely on these things. Different weapons are also better suited to different situations and opponents so this can be an important strategic choice.

 

[Tom]

In the end we decided this was unnecessarily complex and still a little restrictive so instead we went for light and heavy weapon skills as representative of significantly different fighting styles.

One of the things we enjoy most about the combat is trying different weapons as they all play quite differently, the physics means that the shape and mass distribution of a weapon have a significant effect on gameplay. You can develop specific moves and a playstyle based purely on these things. Different weapons are also better suited to different situations and opponents so this can be an important strategic choice.

I just quoted the most important parts of the post. This. Looks. Awesome.

 

[Komuflage]

Weapons aren't just light or heavy but can be anywhere between the two extremes.

For clarification purposes, does this mean, that for instance a Mace is between Light and Heavy weapon, and in order to Master a mace, I need to learn a bit from both?

Also, If I understand it correctly, if I only play with a shortsword, and get to Master Light Weapon, does this mean if I swap to a Axe, I'll be just as skilled with that weapon? (Not taking Milestones into the "calculation" since obviously I'll be better with swords if I choice milestones focused on swords)

Or if I only play with a mace, (Assuming it's a mix of Light and Heavy) will I progress in both Light and Heavy Weapons?

 

[Cooper Holt]

This is exactly the kind of thing we're trying to avoid as it's plain silly and hugely restrictive. Originally we were considering putting skills in a tree like structure that would allow you to train in specific skills while having a portion of your training carry over to related or similar skills. In the end we decided this was unnecessarily complex and still a little restrictive so instead we went for light and heavy weapon skills as representative of significantly different fighting styles. Weapons aren't just light or heavy but can be anywhere between the two extremes. We're using skill milestones to further customise your fighting style and these can be implicitly better suited to specific weapons. One milestone we may include is also a preferred weapon type.

I'm planning to train and fight with two swords or a halberd. Will this system be able to do that without taking an unnecessarily long amount of time (compared to just the swords or just the halberd)?

 

[tiny lampe]

I'm planning to train and fight with two swords or a halberd. Will this system be able to do that without taking an unnecessarily long amount of time (compared to just the swords or just the halberd)?

Well, those types of weapons are different enough to in my opinion justify low training synergies.

The sword that is light enough to be effectively used with 1 hand is a light and balanced type of weapon (balanced meaning that its weight is proportionally distributed across the whole weapon.

The halberd, on the other hand, begs to be used two-handed and it's a top-heavy weapon (top-heavy meaning that the bulk of the weight is at the top of the weapon).

Actually, I'd have loved to see a 2-axis classification for weapons: 'light<--->heavy' to represent how much they weight and 'balanced<--->top-heavy' to take into account how the weight is distributed.