Melee Combat

calithlin

Insider
Actually, I'd have loved to see a 2-axis classification for weapons: 'light<--->heavy' to represent how much they weight and 'balanced<--->top-heavy' to take into account how the weight is distributed.

I like where Madoc is already going, but this is also an interesting suggestion! The saw you wield a 1 handed axe and a 1 handed mace are pretty similar, even though they are different damage types, but one would image they would be wielded much differently than a sword or long knife.

Again, though, Madoc's milestone suggestion is enough for me if that option isn't viable (+10% to mace swing efficiency or whatever at milestone X).
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
That is a good idea, tiny lampe, and it would just be an awesome bonus to where Bare Mettle is going (/what Madoc mentioned earlier).
I like to use swords, and they're quite well-balanced, but I'd love to see hand-axes and spears being wielded differently because of their weight distribution. :D
 

tiny lampe

Insider
That is a good idea, tiny lampe, and it would just be an awesome bonus to where Bare Mettle is going (/what Madoc mentioned earlier).
I like to use swords, and they're quite well-balanced, but I'd love to see hand-axes and spears being wielded differently because of their weight distribution. :D
You bring two interesting points:

1. Ways to wield a weapon or, more technically, 'stances'. I believe 100% that this game will feature different stances for different weapon types (it's neither effective nor efficient to wield a spear as if it was a sword for instance, and the physics of the game should make that very obvious). What I want to highlight though is different stances for a particular weapon. if you remember the kickstarter video titled 'combat explained' the character was using a sword and it was shown how by left-clicking he swung it left to right and right to left. Now, that's not an efficient sword stance. Here is why: any move you perform with a weapon has 3 stages: preparation, execution and retrieval. Preparation is the process of abandoning your stance (whatever that is) in order to attack. Execution is the attack itself and retrieval is the process of coming back to your original stance (or another one). Since you are vulnerable in the preparation and retreival stages you want those to be as short as possible. Indeed, you don't want your opponent to see you wind up your swing and that's precisely what Sui Generis showed in that video: a lengthy wind up animation. That's ok for an unexperienced fighter but as you become better you want to adopt other stances, such as the one in this video for instance.


Notice how quickly they can attack? That's because they stance doesn't involve any wind-up moves. In fact, they demonstrate how those can get you killed pretty easily.

Here is another video:


Look at 2:15 for a different stance that faciliates 'chopping' attacks. Again the same idea: this is a stance that allows to attack quickly, without any wind-ups.

It would be nice if in Sui Generis we could have access to different weapon stances in the same weapon category, both to signal higher levels of skill and to faciliate particular type of attacks.

2. About weight distribution, I'm quite sure that Sui Generis will account for those by default due to, again, physics. The key difference between balanced and top-heavy weapons is what happens when you miss a swing. Top-heavy weapons carry more momentum than balanced weapons so if you miss a swing, recovering (going back to your stance) takes both more time and more stamina. This means that your mistakes are easier to punish. Thanks to the physics of Sui Generis' engine, this slower, less smooth retrieval of your top-heavy weapon can be easily (and accurately) represented. Dark Souls did it quite well by the way, making you stagger after missing with maces, axes and halberds. About spears, they don't really obey the same rules as top-heavy weapons because the mass of the spearhead (when compared to the mass of the whole spear) is quite small. Compare that with a mace; the mass of the metallic part represents a much bigger proportion of the mass of the whole weapon. That's what makes it top-heavy.
 

Madoc

Project Lead
any move you perform with a weapon has 3 stages: preparation, execution and retrieval. Preparation is the process of abandoning your stance (whatever that is) in order to attack. Execution is the attack itself and retrieval is the process of coming back to your original stance (or another one). Since you are vulnerable in the preparation and retreival stages you want those to be as short as possible. Indeed, you don't want your opponent to see you wind up your swing and that's precisely what Sui Generis showed in that video: a lengthy wind up animation. That's ok for an unexperienced fighter but as you become better you want to adopt other stances...
Actually that's almost exactly how we're doing things now. Increased skill level and weapon speed reduce wind up time and heavier weapons increase recovery times especially; other things affect these too. We're not done with implementing this as we're still tweaking some mechanics related to hitting vs missing, shields etc.

We're starting to record a new dev video now (a public video will follow soon) which shows and explains some improvements to combat as well as object interaction. I think you'll find the light weapon combat demonstrated in the video looks remarkably similar to that in the first video you linked.
 

Tom

Insider
We're starting to record a new dev video now (a public video will follow soon) which shows and explains some improvements to combat as well as object interaction. I think you'll find the light weapon combat demonstrated in the video looks remarkably similar to that in the first video you linked.
Now THAT'S the kind of dev comment that makes my day (if not my week). Videos on combat? Yes please!

Long live Bare Mettle.
 

Fawz

Insider
Can't wait for the videos! It was great to wait until after e3 for better exposure and more polish on the videos.

Really excited to see/hear more about the new combat features that got added :D
 

Tom

Insider
Can't wait for the videos! It was great to wait until after e3 for better exposure and more polish on the videos.

Really excited to see/hear more about the new combat features that got added :D

Fawz, we're counting on ya for another recap once it's out ;)
 

Lathspell

Member
I was thinking about dual wielding, but how it will work with the player I mean, if I'm with a sword/sword, dagger/dagger, etc you will be able to attack with both weapons at once? and will be possible to attack in different directions? i.e. will be possible to do an X-slash attack?
 

Parco

Moderator
wouldnt x-slash attacks be easily to counter by just swinging your sword between the attackers swords? but would be fun if it was possible
 

Lathspell

Member
wouldnt x-slash attacks be easily to counter by just swinging your sword between the attackers swords? but would be fun if it was possible
maybe, that's the counterpart of dual wielding fighting style, you can do more damage and attack continuously, but your defense is going to be harder...but anyway my real question is, How free would you be with two weapons? I'll be free I aim an arm with one hand, and aim with the other to the face? attack with both weapons? etc
 

Komuflage

Insider
I don't see how it would be possible to aim for both the arm and the face, since you only have 1 cursor :p
Like fluffy says Dualwielding is shown, and you'll be able to attack with both weapons at once. I'm guessing there will be some special moves as well for dual wielding character, maybe an X slash, who knows :p
 

Parco

Moderator
maybe you can choose what hand to attack with by clicking q or e, or mouse button 4 and 5 for us who have it.
 

Dragomir

Member
Hello everyone! This is my first post on this forum, I hope I'll bring something good to this community.

First of all, I just found Sui Generis and I'm very excited about it, it seems like a sandbox roguelike RPG I always wanted.

Now, to the point: I am a full contact early medieval combat reenactor. I fight fith swords and shields, axes, long axes and spears. I know this doesn't automatically give me any authority, but I spent years on thinking how real fights would look like, what would be the best thing to do, and which things would be suicidal in the battlefield.

I know that games don't allow absolute realism in terms of combat (yet), but I think few of real life principles could be adopted in Sui Generis, for two reasons: first - this game already breaks tendencies in many categories, and that could produce one of the best combat systems so far. Secondly - in many areas this game seems focused on realism and simulation, and with real like physics and damage I think should go real like and correct behaviour of the characters. I won't give full descriptions of combat moves (I could though if you want), I just want to point out a few things to keep in mind.
Also, I'm speaking as a rather experienced warrior, I would love it if our character would learn those things with increasing skills.

First of all - put something between you and enemy. It's a very natural thing to do, even without training. In fantasy and "historical" movies characters do theatrical fights, often exposing their backs and sides to the opponent. When we face someone we should almost always hold a guard. If have only have a sword - we will point it at the enemy. If we have a shield, then we can hold in front either of those. That seems obvious, but for example footwork should go with that. If we have a sword only we should put our right foot forward and stand sideways to the opponent. This way we're a smaller target, we can block and dodge more easily and we have a lot of reach - like a fencing stance, just less overdone.

Secondly - pick weapons accordingly to situations. A spear has very small chances of succes against a shieldman. As soon as he gets past the tip we're in serious trouble. However - taking a one handed sword with a shield against a troll would be suicidal, since we won't be able to either block any of it's attacks, or reach it without getting dangerously close. Spear in this case is a much more viable option, and a ranged weapon would work best. Two handed weapons should work well against armoured enemies et cetera. I'm not saying our character should carry a whole arsenal all the time, but different weapons should work best against certain enemies. Physics system will force that anyway hopefully.

Third thing - those awful over the top attacks. I'm okay with our character flailing his weapon around as a fledgeling, but as we get more experienced the attacks should get quick and precise, without unnecessary movement. One doesn't have to put a sword far behind to deliver a good blow. In most cases it doesn't matter how hard we hit, as long as we hit first. The more powerful blows should probably be taken into consideration while facing enemies in armours for example.

Four - thing that annoys me the most. Again, I could accept that when our character is inexperienced, but later on it's intolerable for anyone that ever wielded a weapon and a shield. I hate it when in games during an attack we purposedly move the shield aside to expose us to the enemy - just for the sake of boring sword&board gameplay in which we just bash each other on the shields. One does not need THAT MUCH space to swing a sword, surely not when one wants to survive. In more advanced combat it actually comes down to being able to attack and block an enemie's attack at the same time. With experience our character should be able to cover himself regardless if attacking or not.

Five - weapons are not heavy. They are not. They couldn't be, as I said before, it doesn't matter how hard you hit, but if you hit first. That is except for chopping - wood or monsters. The heaviest two handed swords weighed around 3 kilos, typical viking swords about 900 grams or less. This fantasy world seems gritty and realistic, and it would be nice if weapons were acting like they are of proper, realistic weight (that is of course except for weapons that are meant to be used by the inhumanly strong).

I think I'll end up with that pentalog wall of text. I'll surely write more later, if anyone cares to read (and I'll probably skip the introductions). I have quite a few ideas, for example party managing - I'd love to press a "give command" key, click on one of my trusty soldiers and order him to move somwhere else (it would be even cooler with our character pulling off a short animation and a vocal command). That idea isn't actually that close to the terms of melee combat, however with time I learned that having at least one companion is always a huge advantage, and teamwork always beats individual skill.

EDIT - I almost forgot! I didn't have a chance to look up close enough in the video, so I don't know whether it's that way in the game. Please, please, don't give infantrymen cavalry shields. That is kite and heater shields. Their shape is designed to fit the horse's side. Makes sense if you think about it. Kite shields are a bit longer, so they can be sometimes used by infantry, they protect the front leg and most of the body. However typical knightly heater shields are too short to protect well if used with a double grip. Grip is another VERY important issue. All round shields that have been used on foot had a single grip exactly in the middle. That is the best place to hold it - the geometrical centre that allows for best manouverability. Sometimes they had extra stripes above the wrist so that they would be easier to hold in place when enemy hits, but never would anyone have two stripes on a shield to hold it - it would be absolutely useless.

Another thing is knightly equipment. Many people don't realise this, but knights fought on horseback. They were CAVALRY. They were told to get of horses from time to time, during sieges especially, but their main purpose on the battlefield was a horse charge. Now, what does a typical imagination of a knight wear in combat? A closed helmet, heater shield and full plate of course. But those things just don't work very well on the ground. Helmet visors allow to see stuff, just not enough to be as aware of surroundings as it is in battle (and in combat situational awareness is the MOST important thing of all). A mechanism that narrows your cone of vision when you have a closed helmet on would be great I think.

I also have a few concerns about the combat pacing, that is gotten so wrong in most RPG's. I'm pretty sure SG's combat system will already do that to some extent, I'm just going to put in a reminder of what to avoid. And what I'm babbling here about is the amount of hits enemies or our character can hit. In real life pretty much any hit can be lethal. Most of the attacks end up blocked or missed. With locational damage system realistic wounds should be pretty easy to make - meaning that if we get cut to the right arm we might as well be dead. This by all means wouldn't make the fights shorter - if anything - longer, because both combatants would be much more careful in their actions. Most hits should be deadly, unless in heavy armor. However heavy armor should come with a big penalty to stamina and movement speed, as well as it should to some extent make it harder to get up (most of it would come from the stiffiness of this garment though, no the weight).
 
Wall of text
I made this account purely to say, thank you for posting this, and I sincerely hope the devs take everything you said and run with it.

BUT.

At the same time, one needs to balance realism with not-boring.
This is mostly pointed at your third point.

The over the top attacks are what makes a combat system brutal and generally satisfying. Obviously, we don't need to spin around in circles like a retard, but bringing a weapon all the way back and delivering a titanic slash/smash is, for lack of a fancy technical word. Fun.

There needs to be a limit to the over-the-topness, of course, but if you choke it off all the way, the combat just gets boring.


From what I've seen, of course, the devs are trying to make combat as realistic as possible, but I will restate my main point here, being too realistic is boring.

A solution that could give us the best of both worlds, in my opinion, is make the auto-attacks the fast, skillful strikes, but give us an option to do the full wind up over head swing of bisection when the situation allows for it.
 
First off, welcome to the forums.

I'd like to say that I agree with what your saying and would like to reassure you that your too much realism is boring point is already understood by the devs. Depending on how long you've been lurking you may or may not know that the game won't be having food and rest as necessities for that exact reason. Whether or not they have applied this thinking to combat, we don't yet know. But, we do know thaumaturgy will be part of combat so I'd imagine they're ok with leaving the boundaries of realism.
 
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