Signs!

[said]

Hello Everyone!

This is my first thread as well as my first post here. So hopefully I'm not doing anything wrong.

So, as far as I understood this underworld is a place where people used to live their daily lives and stuff. And I can see a lot of effort is made to make it seem that way. (amount of the toilets was one of them I guess.)

The thing is, I cant really imagine living in the underworld myself for one reason. It is quite literally, a maze. There are rooms for officials and great halls and stockpiles and everything. But essentially it feels like just a maze. I imagine I would suck living there because I would get lost every time I wake up and go to the place I was supposed to work. I can easily imagine myself wandering into some high officials room thinking it was the toilet and get executed.

To make it look more like some place that used to be alive, I think the place needs a little bit of what real people use to prevent getting lost. Some signs!

Like armoury, dormitory, kitchen, stockpile etc.. Signs on some doors and some signs on corridors.

This would both help players like me who gets hopelessly lost every time and give the place a little more believability (the believability part is already much better than most games I played so far though).

It doesn't even have to be in English. Signs can be in a different (even made up) language and you would see what it means by clicking on it.

I hope there is no unspoken reason for not adding signs though...

Apart from feeling a lab rat sometimes, I'm loving this game so far.

 

[Don Kanaille]

I kinda like the idea. Makes some sense to me.

I have to admit I´m not aware how people did it historically, other than simpy remembering what was where. But I guess structures weren´t usually that large...

However, I´m not sure the majority of people who lived there were literate, so maybe a picture-like sign makes more sense? I mean, the already existing skull-and-crossbones sign can hardly be misunderstood.

 

[Sneil]

I'm not aware of any underground complexes existing like this historically.

But, what you say for a place like this makes perfect sense and I agree would be a necessity for those dwelling there. It would certainly up the believability and make life for us a tad simpler at the same time.

 

[said]

To be honest, my main concern here is not really believability but the fact that I myself pretty much suck at any form of path finding and I would like to suffer a little less while playing this marvel.

There are some really eerie ancient underground tunnels in Istanbul, the city I used to live. Those tunnels too are like mazes and as far as I heard, there are some evidence that they were made as an underground network or even a city. It is not a geological case that the remains are underground. The network was built underground when it was first constructed just like in exanima. I am not aware of any kind of signs there. But it should be said that those tunnels are really ancient and no one really knows why they were built in the first place.

 

[-Tim-]

I agree that more navigational instuments would be useful, logical and realistic. Objects that could be added are maps (as ingame objects, not a minimap), signs, flags, etc.

 

[said]

Maybe even a drawing feature could be unlocked in the player journal by putting pencils and paper in the inventory.

 

[Solinarius]

Maybe even a drawing feature could be unlocked in the player journal by putting pencils and paper in the inventory.

The Journal is a great addition for this game. Being able to draw on it would be amazing! I could even imagine some people writing their text, rather than typing.

 

[PipesOfMadness]

I think this is a pretty good idea. I've played the first couple of levels dozens of times and I always manage to walk in the wrong direction if I'm looking for a particular room.

I don't know about the drawing feature. Something about drawing with the mouse that puts me off. I can imagine it would require some work to get that in and not a whole lot of people would be using it. Not worth it probably.

 

[Solinarius]

I think this is a pretty good idea. I've played the first couple of levels dozens of times and I always manage to walk in the wrong direction if I'm looking for a particular room.

I don't know about the drawing feature. Something about drawing with the mouse that puts me off. I can imagine it would require some work to get that in and not a whole lot of people would be using it. Not worth it probably.

Not any more work than it took to implement the Journal itself, I imagine. I drew a fair amount of my avatar using my mouse, freehanded .

 

[Anthony Obilor]

My stance on this is mixed to be honest. Firstly the underground structure is not that huge, also unless this structure was a public place then signs would be wrong. Signs are never used for private structures. Castles were not like malls of today, everyone used brain more to remember and people remembered by counting how many turns as well. The structure is not so large we are just used to other games showing us the way with minimaps. Trust me it's subconscious, we do not use our memory as much for mapping,use the compass, build in ur head a simple outline of lines so you know generally what direction you are headed.
Also I feel it is great game play wise to feel lost sometimes, you know those moments in books or films where they enter this gloomy Maze and always get lost "cliche", well now we got it but in real life.
The thing is the structure feels more like a tight nit community, like a large castle with various sections. If it was a public place I believe it should have been built around some large underground cavern. I doubt the whole underworld is made of corridors only,think outside the box, I hope this isn't just the smoke talking...

At the same time I would like in game maps possibly, not minimaps but as objects you can find and purchase of the world. Not sure on maps of structures..... Who would sit in medieval times and draw maps of interiors? Except for Castles and palaces.... Well I'd like to know what the devs stance on maps is.

 

[Sneil]

To be honest, my main concern here is not really believability but the fact that I myself pretty much suck at any form of path finding and I would like to suffer a little less while playing this marvel.

There are some really eerie ancient underground tunnels in Istanbul, the city I used to live. Those tunnels too are like mazes and as far as I heard, there are some evidence that they were made as an underground network or even a city. It is not a geological case that the remains are underground. The network was built underground when it was first constructed just like in exanima. I am not aware of any kind of signs there. But it should be said that those tunnels are really ancient and no one really knows why they were built in the first place.

Huh, go figure. Now that is interesting. Time to go do some research!

Who would sit in medieval times and draw maps of interiors? Except for Castles and palaces.... Well I'd like to know what the devs stance on maps is.

I'm sure many would for such systems as this to be honest. Especially for some structured society/(military?) like the one in Examina. But, that's only my opinion.

 

[said]

My stance on this is mixed to be honest. Firstly the underground structure is not that huge, also unless this structure was a public place then signs would be wrong. Signs are never used for private structures. Castles were not like malls of today, everyone used brain more to remember and people remembered by counting how many turns as well. The structure is not so large we are just used to other games showing us the way with minimaps. Trust me it's subconscious, we do not use our memory as much for mapping,use the compass, build in ur head a simple outline of lines so you know generally what direction you are headed.
Also I feel it is great game play wise to feel lost sometimes, you know those moments in books or films where they enter this gloomy Maze and always get lost "cliche", well now we got it but in real life.
The thing is the structure feels more like a tight nit community, like a large castle with various sections. If it was a public place I believe it should have been built around some large underground cavern. I doubt the whole underworld is made of corridors only,think outside the box, I hope this isn't just the smoke talking...

I kinda got better at finding my way and found better approaches to each level, planning all my movements beforehand. I still suck at it big time though.

It is not really about the size of the structure but about the unusual level of complexity. The signs can easily look handmade or even destroyed-misplaced. We can have some rag tag signs made by more recent inhabitants. Of course if the structure is like you said "a tight nit community" then probably not having too much signs (or none at all) seems the best.

That said, it doesn't even have to be actual signs. Just more memorable drawings or coat of arms on walls would do. Something a little more memorable for us stupid humans.

You see, my only concern is getting less frustrated. If mild annoyances like this are considered as gameplay aspects that the designer thinks we are supposed to feel than I am completely ok with that too.

I just think adding some signs wont break any of the existing gameplay. I for one would still get lost but maybe a little less.

 

[Aramis]

Maybe "photographic memory" could be a skill? If you invest in it the game draws a "map" (for example in your journal) but it is actually just your brilliant character remembering everything Personally, I didn't find it too difficult to remember the first 4 levels - but I'm definitely not opposed to some sort of map feature. Either one that is drawn "as you go" or physical maps you can find/purchase.

 

[said]

Maybe "photographic memory" could be a skill?

I think any form of auto map or minimap would go against the games general philosophy.

Finding some handmade maps prepared by the more recent inhabitants on the other hand may be a good Idea.

A map along side a note that says: "Ok you idiot. I prepared a map for you so next time, you can show up at your post in time. Don't screw this up again!"

 

[Aramis]

I think any form of auto map or minimap would go against the games general philosophy.

I kind of agree with you, minimaps/auto mapping doesn't really fit in, but at the same time I don't entirely agree.

If it was an expensive skill, which therefore came at the cost of other skills - I don't really see it as going against the game's philosophy. There are a lot of people with really good capabilities of remembering, streets, landscapes, hallways etc. Maybe it isn't very relevant for Exanima, but for Sui Generis skills which develop your character's mental capabilities, as well as it's physical, could make a lot of sense. Something like this could be one of them.

 

[konggary]

I thought of a work-around: what if they implement some way that the character could "write" on the walls, (blood or paint or something). You could mark where you've been or a dangerous room, without breaking immersion.

 

[Tony]

I don't really see it as going against the game's philosophy. There are a lot of people with really good capabilities of remembering, streets, landscapes, hallways etc. Maybe it isn't very relevant for Exanima, but for Sui Generis skills which develop your character's mental capabilities, as well as it's physical, could make a lot of sense. Something like this could be one of them.

Actually, creating a mental skill such as that does go against the game's philosophy. The philosophy of the game is this: the mental attributes are determined by the actual player, not the in-game character. How wise or intelligent you are, how charming or charismatic you are, how much wit you have... these type of things are not going to be determined by in-game skills or attributes but by the actual person playing the game.

 

[Aramis]

Actually, creating a mental skill such as that does go against the game's philosophy. The philosophy of the game is this: the mental attributes are determined by the actual player, not the in-game character. How wise or intelligent you are, how charming or charismatic you are, how much wit you have... these type of things are not going to be determined by in-game skills or attributes but by the actual person playing the game.

Fair enough, and I agree with what you're saying. Although, I don't think the option of giving the character certain mental capabilities, which the player don't possess himself, would necessarily be detrimental to the game. Don't give me a charm skill, or a wit skill to guarantee me success in conversations. Don't give me a perception skill to find the secrets of the game. Basically, don't make the character play the game for me. Still, I think there could be room for some mental skills nonetheless.

 

[Tony]

Fair enough, and I agree with what you're saying. Although, I don't think the option of giving the character certain mental capabilities, which the player don't possess himself, would necessarily be detrimental to the game. Don't give me a charm skill, or a wit skill to guarantee me success in conversations. Don't give me a perception skill to find the secrets of the game. Basically, don't make the character play the game for me. Still, I think there could be room for some mental skills nonetheless.

I believe the only mental related skills will have to do with focus (the blue bar in-game) and thaumaturgy.

 

[Aramis]

I believe you are right. I'm just throwing ideas around in my head Giving the character better memory of street layouts (no quest markers, no marked people) just the ability to remember the "lay of the land" could be one such skill. Learning a new language, another - I don't expect to see this in-game, mind you. Just having a massive Exanima addiction week, and throwing thoughts left and right.