Thaumaturgy

[asdorn]

Hey everyone!

So as I've been perusing the forums I have noticed a lack of people talking about the thaumaturgic powers that will be in the game at some point(hopefully soon ) and well that's the idea that got me hooked and excited for Sui Generis/Exanima. The idea that you start off with a power like force push and then can modify it to suit your playstyle or needs is very intriguing. So I wanted to make a thread talking about what is already known about the thaumaturgic powers and what I think(or want) will be possible to do with them.

How Thaumaturgy Works:
Thaumaturgy is in essence the "magic" of Sui Generis; although it seems to work more like science then magic. There are six different Forms: Mind, Body, Force, Energy, Light and Displacement. The few who can wield this awesome power all have an affinity, the Form that the Thaumaturge has an affinity towards will be more easily learned and slightly more powerful for the wielder then the rest of the forms. This is not saying that a Thaumaturge does not have access to all the other Forms, it just means that one Form will be more easily augmented and be more powerful then the rest.

But how do I get more powerful you ask? How do I gain knowledge you ask. How do I become a living God you ask? Well luckily for you the answer to this is actually rather simple; all you have to do is kill every person you see...
A more serious explanation is, every time a living thing dies there is a brief window of opportunity where it is possible to absorb their Thaumaturgic power latent or otherwise. The more power one has the more that can be absorbed. Along with power it is possible to occasionally gain Thaumaturgic knowledge from the deceased minds of those recently vanquished, thus increasing one's abilities as well as one's power.


FORMS

Force

Spoiler

Known powers:
-Force push, it is a basic attack that launches a concussive blast forward throws things back while dealing damage, ways the player can modify this ability is by making it omnidirectional to hit things in more directions and by making it more solid to make a shield against projectiles. Found in the details of Sui Generis in the games section of the website.

Speculation:
Would not be surprised if it was possible to pull things towards oneself as well. Idea for another force power would be to launch the player into the air or to the side really quickly as a dodge. My favourite idea is the possibility of picking up weapons with thaumaturgy and fighting from a distance, reducing risk to the player but also unable to react quickly if someone gets by or comes from the side

Displacement

Spoiler

Known powers:
-Teleportation, as the name suggest the player can teleport around the map featured prominently in the pre-alpha gameplay trailer. A modification of this power is to teleport another being(seen in the trailer when the player teleports a guard to the edge of the wall where he then falls to his death).

-Ethereal form(name I have given it for lack of another), not entirely sure what happens here, but it looks like the player turns invisible in the middle of fighting for a split second and causes weapons to pass through harmlessly. Seen in the pre-alpha gameplay trailer.

-Pocket dimensional storage, ability to store items in a seperate dimension. I remember reading or hearing about this somewhere, but can't remember where(also possible my memory is confuse with another game)

Speculation:
Maybe possible to use teleportation to teleport objects as well or to pick pocket someone from a distance. Wondering if it would be possible to make the players body incorporeal temporarily to walk through walls or objects or to turn invisible and walk around instead of for just a split second.

Energy

Spoiler

Speculation:
My thoughts are that this is going to be fire based with maybe some electricity/lightning. Probably going to be things like fireballs, walls of flame, maybe spontaneosly combusting unawares enemies? There are lots of interesting things that can be done with fire, like maybe the player could douse his sword in flame to make it deal lasting burn damage.

Light

Spoiler

Speculation:
I'm thinking that this power will be illusions and things like that. So maybe casting an illusionary form in the trees to attract someones attention, or to make it seem like there are more people with you then there are. Maybe the player could use it like a flashbang grenade and blind everyone make their guards go down. Or maybe i'm just flat out wrong and this is actualy where the fire stuff is, don't really know.

Body

Spoiler

Known Powers:
-Heart Stop; this power was mentioned by Madoc, it would require the player to hold their cursor over an opponents heart for a length of time eventually stopping the heart. -Thanks to Roryn for the link. http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Heart_Stop
Speculation:
I think the body discipline is going to be enhancements, like making the player hit harder or swing faster, or sprint really fast for long periods of time. Possibly healing powers? Offence powers could be debuffing the oppenents, by making them slower and weaker. Maybe you could just flat out knock them out or put them to sleep or give them indigestion . Or dare I say it, shape shifting...

Mind

Spoiler

Known powers:
- Raise dead, call forth the dead's souls back to their rotting corpses to fight for you. Found in the about Sui Generis when you click on the Thaumaturgy tab.

Speculation:
Influencing the thoughts of others is what immediately comes to mind, causing terror to make others flee or anger to make them assault one another.
Edit: I am now wondering if the acquisition of Thaumaturgic knowledge is increased by a Mind power.

So that is all the powers that I could find and what I think could be done with the available knowledge of this wonderful game. I will add whatever information I can find as it comes up to hopefully make an easy place to find everything about Thaumaturgy on the forums. Please post what you think could be done with the different forms of Thaumaturgy(I love this word).

 

[Wisphet]

I was hoping that the "body" include something like blood magic.
EDIT: that and displacement is what i'm looking forward to.

 

[Roryn]

All of this speculation is very interesting! I remember that they said you could combine or alter spells, and possibly even thaumaturgic schools. If this is the case, then I'd say that making fire would be a combination of light and energy thaumaturgy. If not, I think it probably would lean closer to energy.

Not sure about what you said about displacement thaumaturgy, though. It's not so much about turning ethereal or incorporeal so much as it is merely about 'displacing' things. I'm pretty sure that what you called 'ethereal form' is essentially the same skill as the 'teleportation' in the video. The difference is that they don't move after they've used it.

I also read something about a 'heart stop' skill in body thaumaturgy. I can imagine it being buffs and healing and stuff, but that always struck me as something rather bland for BM to implement. Going along the lines of the heart stop skill (done by hovering the mouse over the enemy's heart, apparently), maybe you could similarly affect other elements of enemies' bodies. Disable their leg/s or arm/s, maybe?

I never thought about the possible illusion part of light -- that sounds brilliant! I only ever imagined light literally being made, or perhaps for highly skilled thaumaturges, creating light that's only visible to their allies or themselves (like the

Spoiler

helmet in level 3)

or enshrouding their enemies' eyes in darkness. Maybe that's a mix of light and mind thaumaturgy, if indeed the classes can be combined.

 

[asdorn]

All of this speculation is very interesting! I remember that they said you could combine or alter spells, and possibly even thaumaturgic schools. If this is the case, then I'd say that making fire would be a combination of light and energy thaumaturgy. If not, I think it probably would lean closer to energy.

Not sure about what you said about displacement thaumaturgy, though. It's not so much about turning ethereal or incorporeal so much as it is merely about 'displacing' things. I'm pretty sure that what you called 'ethereal form' is essentially the same skill as the 'teleportation' in the video. The difference is that they don't move after they've used it.

I also read something about a 'heart stop' skill in body thaumaturgy. I can imagine it being buffs and healing and stuff, but that always struck me as something rather bland for BM to implement. Going along the lines of the heart stop skill (done by hovering the mouse over the enemy's heart, apparently), maybe you could similarly affect other elements of enemies' bodies. Disable their leg/s or arm/s, maybe?

I never thought about the possible illusion part of light -- that sounds brilliant! I only ever imagined light literally being made, or perhaps for highly skilled thaumaturges, creating light that's only visible to their allies or themselves (like the

Spoiler

helmet in level 3)

or enshrouding their enemies' eyes in darkness. Maybe that's a mix of light and mind thaumaturgy, if indeed the classes can be combined.

As I said i wasn't to sure what was happening with the ethereal form thing, so thanks for your insight. Maybe a better name would be Vanishing act or something along those ligns?

The hearts stop seems really interesting, sort of like a paralysis onto a certain limb, so if you have multiple enemies running coming at you, you could stop one of their legs to make him fall and be unable to get up for a few seconds giving you some time to either take out the others or at least damage them unhindered.

Another note on this; when you said the it was a rather bland idea, if the player can attack all the limbs it could make it so depending on what you click is what gets affected adding an element of strategy to it. Example: Hitting the heart would be harder to hit with a small hitbox and maybe it would make the opponent take severe damage, but only stumble a little bit, whereas if the player targeted the legs it would fall and be unable to get up, or the arm it would not be able to block or attack with it. So depending on what you think is best in the situation you could affect different limbs. Another thing is some opponents might not be affected by certain aspects of it, like the zombies; they don't have beating hearts, but they do still have limbs.

On the note of being able to mix and interchange the different forms and idea would be to mix Mind and Body together to take control of another being for a moment. Imagine being a troll like Sir or taking over a guard and making him slaughter his own king. This sort of stuff would really help to mix up the game and add a new tactical element on top of what is already there.

Maybe my favorite part of what you said was using powers to enchant items.

Spoiler

Maybe thats how Thaven's helmet works; powerful Mind thaumaturgy blocking out all connections.

Edit: I was wondering if you could provide a link to where you read the about the Heart stop if you could find it; then I could add it to the list of known powers.

 

[Roryn]

Here it is!
http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Heart_Stop
I have to say it doesn't sound certain at all, but it's possible.

Edit: You might also be interested in what I just found again on that unofficial wiki. It's very old information, but it's very interesting anyway.

Spoiler

Tweaking powers
Tweaking powers will allow the player slightly change a thaumaturgic power in a desired fashion. An example of this would be to change how the power is cast. Tweaking will give access to a different version of the power rather than upgrading the original power. This means that both powers can be accessible and players will be able to tweak their powers in different fashions, creating a sort of branching tree of powers.

An example of this would be the Force Blast power. Force Blast is a very basic Force power that allows the player to create a force pushing forwards when cast. This power could be tweaked to be sustained instead of immediate. Or it could be tweaked to push in all directions instead of just forwards. It could even be tweaked to become more coherent, creating a shield of sorts. The player could combine any number of these tweaks together. If the player combined all of them, he/she would have a very advanced power which would create an omnidirectional shield which the player could sustain for as long as he/she had focus. A very advanced thaumaturge may even tweak the shield to be cast on enemies, allowing him/her to displace the air inside, suffocating the enemy (it is not confirmed if multiple forms of thaumaturgy will be used in one tweaked power or used separately to achieve dynamic affects).

The ability to tweak powers allows for broad customisation in thaumaturgy, beyond the choice of an innate form.

http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Thaumaturgy

 

[Syllabear3]

Body. If it is anti magic the better, magic is an abomination.
Maybe light if that can light my way with a big radius.

Here it is!
http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Heart_Stop
I have to say it doesn't sound certain at all, but it's possible.

Edit: You might also be interested in what I just found again on that unofficial wiki. It's very old information, but it's very interesting anyway.

Spoiler

Tweaking powers
Tweaking powers will allow the player slightly change a thaumaturgic power in a desired fashion. An example of this would be to change how the power is cast. Tweaking will give access to a different version of the power rather than upgrading the original power. This means that both powers can be accessible and players will be able to tweak their powers in different fashions, creating a sort of branching tree of powers.

An example of this would be the Force Blast power. Force Blast is a very basic Force power that allows the player to create a force pushing forwards when cast. This power could be tweaked to be sustained instead of immediate. Or it could be tweaked to push in all directions instead of just forwards. It could even be tweaked to become more coherent, creating a shield of sorts. The player could combine any number of these tweaks together. If the player combined all of them, he/she would have a very advanced power which would create an omnidirectional shield which the player could sustain for as long as he/she had focus. A very advanced thaumaturge may even tweak the shield to be cast on enemies, allowing him/her to displace the air inside, suffocating the enemy (it is not confirmed if multiple forms of thaumaturgy will be used in one tweaked power or used separately to achieve dynamic affects).

The ability to tweak powers allows for broad customisation in thaumaturgy, beyond the choice of an innate form.

http://suigeneris.gamepedia.com/Thaumaturgy

wtf... i hope its a joke.

 

[asdorn]

Body. If it is anti magic the better, magic is an abomination.
Maybe light if that can light my way with a big radius.


wtf... i hope its a joke.

The tweaking of powers is already confirmed, that's what I have been calling modifications. I think it is a very good idea because it adds a whole new element to how combat and Thaumaturgy works. You have to choose how you develop each power to get what you want or need to be the most effective. It also doesn't seem to be a permanent change to the power, since it is seen in the pre-alpha gameplay video that the player uses at least two different forms of teleport; teleporting himself and teleporting a guard.

The body thing is really interesting, being able to stop otehr Thaumaturges from affecting you by being adept enough in the Body form; would that mean that some powers won't always work on certain creatures and people? Like Heart stop would not work against a skeleton since they don't have hearts, or fire not affecting golems or simplay not being able to tweak another's emotions or bodily functions if their latent power is too strong. Very interesting idea.

 

[Roryn]

wtf... i hope its a joke.

Do you mean that you hope the heart stop skill is a joke, or that the whole tweaking powers thing is a joke?

I'm going to assume it's heart stop, but don't worry. I'm sure that ability would firstly be very high level, secondly very difficult to execute, and thirdly require large amounts of power and even time, and that's even if it makes it into the game at all.

 

[Syllabear3]

I dont know... it sounds like "yo i heard that you been through a lot of trouble finding all that armor and lifting and training, so i can stop your heart with this sbell xDDDDD". NO.

And thinking that if it works it should be powerful enough to stop someone really quick... or you will be hammered in the face.
And if it is balanced enough, it wont be really worth using because it would be easier to just slam someone face to the ground instead of using mana or i dont know what facing multiple targets.

The tweaking of powers is already confirmed, that's what I have been calling modifications. I think it is a very good idea because it adds a whole new element to how combat and Thaumaturgy works. You have to choose how you develop each power to get what you want or need to be the most effective. It also doesn't seem to be a permanent change to the power, since it is seen in the pre-alpha gameplay video that the player uses at least two different forms of teleport; teleporting himself and teleporting a guard.

The body thing is really interesting, being able to stop otehr Thaumaturges from affecting you by being adept enough in the Body form; would that mean that some powers won't always work on certain creatures and people? Like Heart stop would not work against a skeleton since they don't have hearts, or fire not affecting golems or simplay not being able to tweak another's emotions or bodily functions if their latent power is too strong. Very interesting idea.

I am not sure how complex the skill system will be.
And i am not sure if you can mix the typical warrior with some magic neither...

 

[asdorn]

I dont know... it sounds like "yo i heard that you been through a lot of trouble finding all that armor and lifting and training, so i can stop your heart with this sbell xDDDDD". NO.

And thinking that if it works it should be powerful enough to stop someone really quick... or you will be hammered in the face.
And if it is balanced enough, it wont be really worth using because it would be easier to just slam someone face to the ground instead of using mana or i dont know what facing multiple targets.


I am not sure how complex the skill system will be.
And i am not sure if you can mix the typical warrior with some magic neither...

To me it seems more like a stealth spell, it would probably need to be held over the heart for a couple of seconds; which would not be easy with someone charging at you. So if your at low health or can't risk raising the alarm of others, you could take out the guard silently instead of having a loud fight. Dunno really though, it could also just be a different way to play the game, going heavy powers instead of only weapons.

From what has been shown it does not seem possible to change or manipulate your weapons or armour with Thaumaturgy. However it has been shown that powers can be used with a weapon; the demo's have shown a player fighting skeleton's and then blasting it away with Force blast. But we won't know for sure what is possible until the Dev team completes the entire system.

 

[Syllabear3]

To me it seems more like a stealth spell, it would probably need to be held over the heart for a couple of seconds; which would not be easy with someone charging at you. So if your at low health or can't risk raising the alarm of others, you could take out the guard silently instead of having a loud fight. Dunno really though, it could also just be a different way to play the game, going heavy powers instead of only weapons.

From what has been shown it does not seem possible to change or manipulate your weapons or armour with Thaumaturgy. However it has been shown that powers can be used with a weapon; the demo's have shown a player fighting skeleton's and then blasting it away with Force blast. But we won't know for sure what is possible until the Dev team completes the entire system.

That sounds much better. It could be used for a stealth "class" type of character, focusing in the skinnest and smallest ones -that would make less noice going around-.

 

[Roryn]

That sounds much better. It could be used for a stealth "class" type of character, focusing in the skinnest and smallest ones -that would make less noice going around-.

It'd also be very interesting if the body type of the target affected the spell. It would probably be easier to aim on a skinnier person, but I think it would be pretty cool if a fat person was affected more quickly.