The blocking system is broken?

[Greeny]

Hi all!

First of all, sorry for my bad english.

I'm big fan of you, guys, and I watching development of Sui Generis/Exanima since kickstarter campaign. Medieval rpg and slashers are my favorite genres, I have spent many hours in Mount&Blade, War of the Roses/Vikings, and when i saw your game first time I immediately fell in love with it.
So when it come to Steam, I bought it without hesitation, and at this time I have about 20 hours in it.

I finished novice and expert arena with two handed weapons at first, then I go to story mode, but I am so excited by your fighting sistem, that I did not finished even first level and go back to arena, because I wanted to beat it with 1h + shield and without armour.
When I going through arena first time, i used "step in - step out" technique, avoiding strikes by dodges and get enemies using distance and timing. At the second time I wanted beat it another way - with blocking. "I am using a shield", I thought, "so i have no advantage at weapon length, but my strikes faster and blocking with shield is easy". I started trying and I started failing again and again. I finished the novice arena and now am stuck at 4th enemy at expert arena. Ok, i will beat it, but not with blocking technique, i think.

I trying to rise my blocking skill, but my mood is getting worse because i think, that this game are not intended for this fighting style. It has some serious mechanic features, that make it impossible to rely on blocking.

I even made a video to illustrate it (which is full of my pain and death).

1) Low strikes are unblockable. The smallest problem. I agree, if you have not enough length of arms, you cant dispose your shiled low enough, and all that you can - make a step back or crouch with shield. Or take a big seige shield. But it still bothers me, because I am afraid that when the game will have a spears and we will be able to choose how high or low to make a thrust - then small and even medium shield become almost useless.
2) Glancing(gliding?) hits. Even if you turn in the right direction with a raised shield, sometimes you can get the hit, which still reaches the body even after gliding up or down the shield. Sometimes it deals damage, sometimes not - I do not know what it depends on (at video you can see, that even high-forced strikes to head or neck sometimes does not damage you, but only pushes).
3) Bad blocking AI. Seriously, it can move the shield in wrong direction. And I didn't pressing attack button in this times of course.

So my experience (not very rich, I know) makes me feel that success of blocking depends on luck as well as on skill.

I know that your game is RPG, and it is not only about fencing, but so many people were interested in this game only because of revolutionary fighting system, and it will be very bad, if when we will have a broken fighting mechanic. It may happen, that if we have the multiplayer, it will be filled by players, flapping with two-handed swords at a distance from each other, and attempt to enter the close-combat by blocking the counterblow will depend on luck, not on skill. And the campaign will be played the same way - especially with high risk of blocking and with high price of death in game, where we have no saves.
It will not break Sui Generis as another broken game mechanics ruined some another action games(for me it will be War of the Vikings, parry delay made that game dead for me), beacause Sui Generis is mainly singleplayer RPG with (as i hope) beautiful sandbox world and interesting story, and it still has a masterpiece combat system even with this bad moments, but it can make the game much worse and make it lose some of the atmosphere and fun, if such an important component of the combat as blocking will be broken.

I want to be wrong, but all video with arena beating that I have seen, represent the step in - step out strategy, even with 1h weapons, even with shields. If I am wrong - please, can you show me another video, where you avoiding attacks principally by blocking, or give me hope that the combat mechanics will be corrected by future improvements.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

Didn't saw any broken part of bloking system. Really.

1) Low strikes are unblockable. The smallest problem. I agree, if you have not enough length of arms, you cant dispose your shiled low enough, and all that you can - make a step back or crouch with shield.

Small and medium shields give you more maneuvrability than tower shields. But - there is no weight for equipment and maneuvrs in game yet. But even that, it's an old good viking-style hit - in leg under shield. So, what's a problem?

2) Glancing(gliding?) hits. Even if you turn in the right direction with a raised shield, sometimes you can get the hit, which still reaches the body even after gliding up or down the shield.

I saw your video: yes, those were glancing hits, but they hit you right in head after you take them on shield! IMHO that's why they were so harmful.

Sometimes it deals damage, sometimes not - I do not know what it depends on (at video you can see, that even high-forced strikes to head or neck sometimes does not damage you, but only pushes).

I think that was an energy of strike which you sometimes didn't repay with shield. One time great sword was right at your neck, but it was at finish of its swing so it hasn't any energy to deal some damage.

3) Bad blocking AI. Seriously, it can move the shield in wrong direction. And I didn't pressing attack button in this times of course.

No, it's not bad, it's common. To take strike on the shield perfectly you should move perfectly.
And last... This fighting system must be used in complex as in real life: sometimes you may/need to avoid strike, sometimes you can step forward right on the enemy to prevent his swing and maybe even push him on the ground. When you take enemy's hit on shield - that mean you're in little shit, which may grow to the deep shit if your opponent will continue striking.

 

[-Tim-]

Good post and good video. I share many of your frustrations with regards to blocking with the shield. I'm sure Bare Mettle is aware of these issues. I hope many of these will be dealt with as the shields are reworked to fit with the skill system.
I'll add some of my own observations, which I posted recently in another thread.

It's important to realise that in this game, blocking with a shield or weapon is never 100% reliable (or in other words: blocking each and every hit effectively is extremely hard). Some observations:

• Especially right-to-left strikes with both twohanded and onehanded swords have a tendency to hit low, under your shield. Your character often simply cannot and will not block these. Conversely, left-to-right strikes sometimes hit high, above your shield. I assume this will be looked at and tweaked by the devs when shields are overhauled to go along with the skill system.
• As far as I know and have seen, blocking a hit while you're not doing anything else should absorb all damage. If you happen to absorb a hit with your shield during your own attack, you will sometimes take stamina damage, but never red damage.
• Strikes hitting your shield and still causing red damage (and blood particles) does happen and is a matter of polishing physics and collisions. Sometimes parts of your body clip through your shield, and are thus hit directly.

The biggest issue in my opinion is that the character tends to miscalculate high Left-to-right strikes, blocking too low with his/her shield, leaving his/her head open to attack. This makes relying on your shield impossible.

Edit: The likelihood of this last issue occuring also seems to be correlated to character height differences.

 

[Greeny]

But even that, it's an old good viking-style hit - in leg under shield. So, what's a problem?

Maybe it's really not a problem, ok. Maybe it makes me angry, because I know that there are blows that I could not be able to block, and can only dodge them.

To take strike on the shield perfectly you should move perfectly.

That is the problem - I dont know, are the perfectly moving in Exanima possible. I don't know, how to move, to make a 100% successful block, because of AI of my character and random outcome of my the same attempts to block (I'm talking about gliding hits). It does not add motivation to train, that the result of my action would depend on chance, not on my skill.

The biggest issue in my opinion is that the character tends to miscalculate high Left-to-right strikes, blocking too low with his/her shield, leaving his/her head open to attack. This makes relying on your shield impossible.

I'm glad that not only me concern about these issues

 

[Ketobor]

You misunderstand blocking technique.

Try to twist your body in order to maneuver the shield into the leading hand of the oncoming attack.

Using a shield means twisting your body much more than with a two-handed weapon. With a long weapon, this represents failure, but with the shield it represents proper dynamic blocking. Many shots can *seem* unblockable, but it is very rare that an attack begins that you cannot stop. Honestly, I believe this makes shields OP, and I suspect that they will be nerfing them, not buffing them like you hope.

 

[Tovias]

I think you are giving shields too much credit. Unlike in Warband shields here aren't an invisible wall that pops out on your face when you press right click, you should always avoid receiving hits with full strenght or keep a passive stance. The best way to play a board&sword fella in this game is to be aggressive, stick to your enemy, don't allow him gain too much speed, range or power with their attacks and use your shields to deflect rather than block. Many hits are indeed unblockable due to the power and speed that comes with it, that's why you should avoid play the damage sponge role.

 

[Greeny]

Unlike in Warband shields here aren't an invisible wall that pops out on your face when you press right click

And I am happy about it. Invisible wall-like shieldblocking is simple and working, but very unrealistic and not graceful mechanics, I'm tired of it.

Many hits are indeed unblockable due to the power and speed that comes with it, that's why you should avoid play the damage sponge role.

But I can't block them not because of their power and speed, but because my character move his shield too low or to high, or in wrong direction, or keep it in the wrong position, allowing the hit to slide the shield to the body. It is not about speed and power, because i can block the similar attacks with one-handed sword or even torch if they are properly positioned.

Many shots can *seem* unblockable, but it is very rare that an attack begins that you cannot stop. Honestly, I believe this makes shields OP, and I suspect that they will be nerfing them, not buffing them like you hope.

At this moment all videos with arena walkthrough that I saw contain mainly playing on distance and timing, blocking (with shield or weapon) were rare and not always successful movements. I think it's because blocking are really too risky, and my experience confirms it. I tried to train blocks and close combat for some hours, but so far I have opinion, that blocks are too unreliable.

 

[Don Kanaille]

Madoc stated that shields and everything regarding them is currently worked on heavily due to the incoming introduction of the skill system. So don´t be afraid if some things are a bit wonky at the moment.

Other than that, two things I want do add: Using shields means getting close, and getting close means you dont really have to let your enemy strike at you. Often enough you can just step in his blow, block his arm and even fix it with your shield while you can freely strike his now unprotected side. Try to not place yourself in your enemy´s ideal range, either stay out of his reach cumpletely or stick to him very closely - dont be where he can hit you with full power. Quick low power strikes usually work better than the ideal timed swings of two-handed weapons, you dont need to stay in your own ideal range as badly.

 

[Nynuc]

I believe all attacks should be able to be blocked if you see them coming, no matter what. This is a highly skill based game, And if you throw in moves that are unblock-able, or require luck, You automatically poison your game. this is where a lot of the frustration stems I feel. Frustration can be a good thing in some games, but I've never had a more frustrating experience then in this game.

All attacks should be able to be blocked and parried. And all parries should be able to be blocked. And all blocked parries should have parries. This will bring flow to the combat. Combat should feel like a river that flows, and only stops when an obstacle gets in its way (you land a strike). I'm not saying it should be easy to block an attack, I'm just saying it should be possible.

Although I do believe shields are a bit overpowered. You can attack and block at the same time, Which I think is really not a good idea for this game. Even though it is realistic, You can't really capture the tiny movements and adjustments in real life you would need to counter someone with a shield. Though I do agree, with shields you should be able to Block AND attack, not attack and block.

The only other problem with the combat at the moment I feel is footwork. It should feel more natural. But I think it just has to do with alpha kinks, and not a design decision. Right now, if you move in a single direction, Your character will stop briefly. That is a huge mistake. If you need to move quickly in one direction, there's no reason you should stop, If you're cornered, you should dash quickly out of the way. If you want to close the distance, you should dash quickly into the enemy, and not stop.

The only problem with the AI at the moment is they will not change their fighting style. If something isn't working, Like, lets say if I'm fighting a guy with an axe, And he throws huge heavy strikes, It's pretty easy to step out of the way and counter with little strikes. But after every strike, He doesn't get the hint that this aggressive style isn't working, He'll keep swinging for the fences and condemn himself to death, when he should play more defensibly, then maybe switch back to being aggressive once he's comfortable.

These are all little changes that could be implemented to improve the game, Reduce frustration, and make it more competitive with the AI. This is just my opinion though, I've played many melee combat games, and gotten pretty decent at them. Like Chivalry, and Jedi academy, and I'd like to think I have a good understanding of this game as well.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

I agree that all attacks should be blocked - but only when character's shield skill will be at his maximum and only with hi-end shield.
If you take simple rusty shield and will block any attack with 100% chance - well, that's amful. There will be no challenge, just "no click to keep winning".

 

[Greeny]

Thanks to all for the fighting tips, i will try some of them, which I did not try yet.
But I'm not sad because I can not defeat enemies (I can do it, in fact), I'm sad because I see mechanics that not work well, as I think. If you do all that you can to block the hit (don't press attack button and turn your mouse and character in right direction in appropriate time before the enemy strike, in our case), and the blocking did not performed - I think, for skill-based game, it means, that blocking mechanics broken. If my understanding of successful performing of block required conditions are not true, please, tell me, what conditions are really needed.

I believe all attacks should be able to be blocked if you see them coming, no matter what.

I totally agree with it. Or we need to know exactly what the attack is unblockable. We can rely on chance, when we playing game like Baldur's Gate, where the success of the attack is decided by dices, and in skill-based games we must rely on our skill.

Madoc stated that shields and everything regarding them is currently worked on heavily due to the incoming introduction of the skill system. So don´t be afraid if some things are a bit wonky at the moment.

Thanks, it really gave me a hope.

Although I do believe shields are a bit overpowered. You can attack and block at the same time, Which I think is really not a good idea for this game. Even though it is realistic, You can't really capture the tiny movements and adjustments in real life you would need to counter someone with a shield.

As for me, it is not a problem. It is very hard to perform block+attack movement, because when you attacking, your character dont move with his shield at the enemy hits direction, and leaving you open, especially at the end of the arc of your strike. Even if you can perform this type of block, you will have a stamina damage.

 

[Greeny]

I agree that all attacks should be blocked - but only when character's shield skill will be at his maximum and only with hi-end shield.
If you take simple rusty shield and will block any attack with 100% chance - well, that's amful. There will be no challenge, just "no click to keep winning".

If we talking about Sui Generis, I agree with you. But in Exanima we have no character's skill, only our own. If as a result of ideally performed blocking I still can get damage, and when I using the dodges i can avoid it with 100% chance (if i skilled enough), then I'll try to avoid blocking at all, because I want to save my health and win.
It is not a challenge, when you can do all that you could and still loose (ok, may be not loose, but at least undeservedly get wounded).

 

[Elaxter]

Blocking is tricky, I made a video where it showcases the blocking.

It's at 1 minute, 28 seconds.

The main thing to take away is to try and not take the full hit. Take a step away from your opponent while attempting to block to have a very efficient block.

In a few updates, skills will be introduced to Exanima in two forms: global and session. One set of skills will always stay with your character, and another will stay with you for only one session. The update is due any day.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Elaxter is right. As I've said I'm a sword and shield fighter (totally, hardly use other weapons, just fits my style) and find blocking with the shield about 90% reliable. There does need to be more bracing behind a block and I'm hoping this would come as a skill for the shield. We really don't know exactly what @Madoc is cooking as the team has been silent for a while and I have been tracking the eta.

I will give some subtle tips about blocking with the shield. There are 2 main things you need to do with the current system to block effectively

1. Rotate so the shield successfully intercepts the incoming attack. Tip: don't focus on cursor so much, you simply use the cursor to rotate your shield-arm toward the blow, it doesn't have to be right on their weapon but that helps.
2. Step-back to allow space to absorb the blow. Tip: a single step-back timed just before impact really helps

Also i do not mind a heavy hit from a sledge sliding off my shield, it is realistic and balanced in my opinion, those sorts of hits should do alot of damage to shields if taken directly even. Large hits like that should be dodged not act like ironman and thor.

I rarely get hit in the campaign unless I am crowded or unlucky, if I bid my time and play carefully like I would in real life the undead become much easier. Now I am not saying the system is perfect, I am hoping the new skills will touch on a few things for us Sword and Board players.

 

[nrage]

Although I do believe shields are a bit overpowered. You can attack and block at the same time, Which I think is really not a good idea for this game. Even though it is realistic, You can't really capture the tiny movements and adjustments in real life you would need to counter someone with a shield. Though I do agree, with shields you should be able to Block AND attack, not attack and block.

In my experience you can't really attack and block at the same time, or block and attack at the same time. Even if the shield *was* in the way of the incoming blow as soon as you press LMB your guy/gal will move the damn shield! However, I have had more luck with letting go of LMB and almost "magically" blocking something, but this happens with single sword or even a large 2 handed weapon too.

I think the use of shields needs a bit more realism. The shield (or offhand weapon) arm should more or less block independently of the LMB state. Ideally there would be a way to be more, or less aggressive with it. In the less aggressive mode strikes should be made with the shield remaining in place to cover one side of the body, as well as the striking arm and hand. Even in the aggressive mode, the shield should remain (almost at all times) in place defending as much of the body as possible.

Shields are necessary to offset the massive advantage that reach has, realistically, and in the game ATM.

IMHO

 

[nrage]

Often enough you can just step in his blow, block his arm and even fix it with your shield while you can freely strike his now unprotected side. Try to not place yourself in your enemy´s ideal range, either stay out of his reach cumpletely or stick to him very closely - dont be where he can hit you with full power.

This is good advice. The low strikes that keep getting you will only do so if you're at exactly their range (or measure as they used to say) so either stay out of that range, or get right inside it where your shield will take the blow from the shaft/upper blade or even bind up their arms. Then, retaliate by swinging on your step back.

Likewise, those blows that ride up or under the shield do so because you're bang in their optimal range and they're hitting with enough force to batter through the shield. They're also not striking dead center on the shield because of the variance in strikes and also the variance in your own AI auto-blocking, which is not perfect 100% of the time - because that would not be realistic.

Once we have a skill system, and you can sink points into blocking with a shield then I think you can be more confident in at least the AI auto-block.

 

[Nynuc]

In my experience you can't really attack and block at the same time, or block and attack at the same time. Even if the shield *was* in the way of the incoming blow as soon as you press LMB your guy/gal will move the damn shield! However, I have had more luck with letting go of LMB and almost "magically" blocking something, but this happens with single sword or even a large 2 handed weapon too.

I think the use of shields needs a bit more realism. The shield (or offhand weapon) arm should more or less block independently of the LMB state. Ideally there would be a way to be more, or less aggressive with it. In the less aggressive mode strikes should be made with the shield remaining in place to cover one side of the body, as well as the striking arm and hand. Even in the aggressive mode, the shield should remain (almost at all times) in place defending as much of the body as possible.

Shields are necessary to offset the massive advantage that reach has, realistically, and in the game ATM.

IMHO

I don't really use a shield at all. I usually just rock a sword and that's it. I have more trouble with the novice arena girl with the sword and shield then i do with the final boss. Because the only skillful technique, that will work against her is timing an overhead strike. Left to right attacks will bounce off the shield 80-90 percent of the time, although you may catch her under the shield once or twice with the RTL sweep. I don't like luck in games like this though. It really ruins the game in my opinion, not to mention I don't believe in true luck. When you die, you should feel like you deserve it. Not scratch your head because the technique you came up with only works 75% of the time.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

I don't like luck in games like this though. It really ruins the game in my opinion, not to mention I don't believe in true luck. When you die, you should feel like you deserve it. Not scratch your head because the technique you came up with only works 75% of the time.

Fair enough. I've noticed that my ingame fighting style depends on the mood - sometimes I'm an ace with "board and sword", sometimes I'm as a butterfly with pole-hammer... The main thing for me - to have enough time to understand what is the weapon I have focused on today.
Skill of fighting with one-handed weapon only is very useful and important (on the first steps, when you haven't shield (well, let's just pretend) or when you're stalking through dungeon with a torch in other hand). And I'll try to skill up myself in that, sooner or later. But having a shield (especially in close-quarters combat, especially "mano-a-mano") significantly determines the outcome of the battle.

 

[nrage]

I don't really use a shield at all. I usually just rock a sword and that's it. I have more trouble with the novice arena girl with the sword and shield then i do with the final boss. Because the only skillful technique, that will work against her is timing an overhead strike. Left to right attacks will bounce off the shield 80-90 percent of the time, although you may catch her under the shield once or twice with the RTL sweep. I don't like luck in games like this though. It really ruins the game in my opinion, not to mention I don't believe in true luck. When you die, you should feel like you deserve it. Not scratch your head because the technique you came up with only works 75% of the time.

So your complaint is that shields are too good? Fair enough. I can see how for gameplay reasons you might want to downplay them a bit to make single sword more viable.

However, realistically shields are actually this good and a single sword is actually fairly suicidal against anything but a single sword of the same or shorter length, unless you have a large skill advantage.

That said, realistically and in the game, to beat a shield you strike where the shield is not which in this case means a LtR attack, often combined with a well timed side-step. It's very hard to get right and I certainly cannot do it consistently.

I usually end up going back to the tried and tested 2 handed sword step back and swing hoping to come in under the shield. This doesn't work so well against the Expert guy with mace and shield however because that guy is mad aggressive and the only tactic that works for me against him is to alternate stepping back and to the side. Basically keeping out of his range *and* line of attack.

To balance the game without downplaying the shield we really need the ability to aim a strike low under the shield, or for the RtL attack to be a bit snappier, having to move the mouse to the left to initiate it makes it a touch too slow to beat the sword/mace+shield opponent consistently IMO.

That said, one thing I often find myself wishing for is for the auto-defence system to not only attempt to block, but also to shuffle or lift the leading leg back when it's under attack. As long as your weight is neutral or on the back foot you should be able to quickly move that leg when it's in danger.

Of course, this would make shield a bit better again..

 

[Ketobor]

For the record, you people know that you can crouch, right? Correctly timed crouches allow low angled swings or swings at the ankles. There are generally fairly consistent.