This game is a design mess

RealGameDeveloper · Jul 10, 2020

Hello, i would like to express my concerns with the direction the game is taking. I've tried it, played it for over 40 hours and i've come to the conclusion that the design of the game is extremely flawed.

Let me begin with the main concern, the mapdesign and objective.
I tought it was clear, after the many terrible indie games that failed with this mechanic, that searching for keys in a map is not an enjoyable experience. I don't know who's idea this was, but the only games in which you have to look for keys are ugly 0 effort horror games from 2012, which everyone hated and made fun of. Why, with such a track record of "competitors" to analyze, you decided this would be an enjoyable experience for the players? The very moment when someone has to open google in order to progress with your game, you have failed as a designer.

And then we get to puzzles. You filled your game with puzzles and invisible buttons. This is the exact same problem, except worse. You made maps which are unenjoyable and boring to explore,is this supposed to be an enjoyable experience? This is not hard, this is frustating.

You made it so saving is not an option for anyone, you didn't even THINK about putting in a system to make players who don't want to put up with the whole start all over again enjoy the game.
You made it so getting defeated would take you 3 hours to get up, which just gets you killed again WITH NO WAY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

And even worse, in 6 YEARS you didn't even try to fix these design flaws. You didn't look at any reference for your game, you didn't intensively test the game to find ways to make it approachable.

All you have is a decent combat system and animation system, which surprise surprire, better developers are improving using AI to generate the animations.
Fix the design of your game, or someone else will do it for you.

Jimmini · Jul 10, 2020

There is exactly one key required to progress in the entire game, and it's clearly presented on a well-lit table. I didn't need to open Google to progress once.

The only area with puzzle-like elements is the one in the first level, which is completely optional. It will likely be made shorter at some point though. I found them quite enjoyable, but there are no such puzzles in any other part of the game.

The game is saved constantly. You can even close the game with Alt+F4 and it'll be saved. Besides that, there are checkpoints after each of the first four levels (the first level even has two). If you mean manual loading and reversing time at will, that would make everything you do in the game completely inconsequential. There will be an option to play dead in the future, to mitigate getting knocked out repeatedly.

You can call them design flaws if you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just your opinion. The developers are sick to death of modern game design, which usually doesn't entail more than following some marker on the screen and doing what you're told to without any fear of consequences whatsoever. That's something they avoid at all cost. If you don't like that, you'll have to find a different game I'm afraid, because that won't ever change.

I haven't seen any other game that allows even remotely the same freedom in combat as Exanima does. I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't see any other developers attempting anything like this any time soon.
As for animations, there are some games with physics-based stumbling animations, and others with some very wonky implementations mostly for comedic effect, but that's it. Machine learning, which I assume is what you meant with AI, isn't going to generate completely procedural animations for arbitrary terrain like Exanima does any time soon either.
Having said that, animations are not what the game is about, so in the unlikely case that someone else would do it better, it wouldn't matter. Combat is also simply one way to interact with the world among many, and was never meant to be what the game is all about (although it has been improved a lot due to popularity).

Saladin · Jul 13, 2020

I'm not gonna try to be as eloquent as the homie above me, but you disliking something doesn't make it a bad design flaw. These devs don't compromise and whether or not you like that will decide how your player experience goes.

Midcal9 · Jul 13, 2020

RealGameDeveloper said:
Hello, i would like to express my concerns with the direction the game is taking. I've tried it, played it for over 40 hours and i've come to the conclusion that the design of the game is extremely flawed.

Let me begin with the main concern, the mapdesign and objective.
I tought it was clear, after the many terrible indie games that failed with this mechanic, that searching for keys in a map is not an enjoyable experience. I don't know who's idea this was, but the only games in which you have to look for keys are ugly 0 effort horror games from 2012, which everyone hated and made fun of. Why, with such a track record of "competitors" to analyze, you decided this would be an enjoyable experience for the players? The very moment when someone has to open google in order to progress with your game, you have failed as a designer.

And then we get to puzzles. You filled your game with puzzles and invisible buttons. This is the exact same problem, except worse. You made maps which are unenjoyable and boring to explore,is this supposed to be an enjoyable experience? This is not hard, this is frustating.

You made it so saving is not an option for anyone, you didn't even THINK about putting in a system to make players who don't want to put up with the whole start all over again enjoy the game.
You made it so getting defeated would take you 3 hours to get up, which just gets you killed again WITH NO WAY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

And even worse, in 6 YEARS you didn't even try to fix these design flaws. You didn't look at any reference for your game, you didn't intensively test the game to find ways to make it approachable.

All you have is a decent combat system and animation system, which surprise surprire, better developers are improving using AI to generate the animations.
Fix the design of your game, or someone else will do it for you.

I got 517 hours so get good casul.

Junkfool · Jul 16, 2020

I second the git gud assessment from homie above me^^^

Mjófyr · Aug 16, 2020

Such a dumb post...

Billy · Aug 17, 2020

I have to agree with all of you experienced players, but although this guy is wrong about everything, he does represent a problem which the developers will have to face at some point. This game is absolutely amazing, it's unique and it doesn't try to follow trends in popular games, and that's what makes it so special. But this does make it rather inaccessible to new players who just don't get it through their heads that it's not Dark Souls, it's not Skyrim, and it won't be fun if that's what they expect to find. I think that Bare Mettle should emphasize this on their Steam store page a little harder. They should still tell people that the game is a blast and has a totally unique feeling that they won't find anywhere else, but a little more warning to buyers would certainly reduce the number of blockheads who buy this beautiful game only to come on the forums to complain that it's unique.

Munter · Aug 21, 2020

What kept this fellow playing for over 40 hours and then to make a forum post just to make this post?

Saetheer · Aug 24, 2020

40 h game time, still stuck trying to find the key. Oh boy, he sure is up for a challenge later, if he manages to progress.

Avramovic · Dec 30, 2020

we have a saying here in Serbia:

"Ko nema u vugla, ima da gugla"

In other words, EvilCorp, I mean Google, Google is your friend.

Arson · Jan 3, 2021

Well, it all boils down to an agreement/disagreement. The main flaw of the initial post was implying the standard, or as we say in Russia GOST (Governmental Standart), for games. The "RealGameDeveloper" has personal preferences in games, which he applies to a game, as best design choices, and only ones that work for the best. Although, everything he says, we can perceive as flaws, but it's just his preferences, what he would like to see in the game. The problem is that he speaks of them as not his preferences, but constructive criticism. For example, puzzle mechanics, he says not specific ways they are flawed, rather than that they are too boring for him, and this is preference, not criticism. If you don't like unnecessary for progress mechanic, you could care less, or if you dont like implementation of a mechanic, suggest the way to improve it, and be specific.

The person and his post simply represent one kind of target audience, which the game isn't developing for, and it is quite helpful for statistics, if there ever will be need for more broad audience, therefore his opinion could be valuable source of information. And also person writes about the game as finished product, which is strange, because the game is not really a game but a developing and very fluid tech demo, which can make 180 turn in, for example map design, because it's not essential for the project.

psychicred · Jan 4, 2021

thanks for the lols

Solinarius · Jan 10, 2021

Arson said:
the game is not really a game but a developing and very fluid tech demo, which can make 180 turn in, for example map design, because it's not essential for the project.

If Exanima's a tech demo, everything's a tech demo.

Deatstroke · Jan 17, 2021

You guys do know that this was probably q troll account, right?

nbilling · Feb 4, 2021

It's a fair point (although expressed in a non-helpful way) that searching for items in a dark dungeon with no map or save/load mechanic is going to frustrate lots of players that would otherwise really enjoy the exploration, story, combat mechanics, etc. of the game. If you can make the game accessible to more people without compromising the experience for everyone then that's a win-win. I think the devs are aware of that and are working on it. If they said that those (accessibility) design elements are easier to integrate later on, while the core combat, physics, and AI are something that has to be settled first, I would take their word for it.

Midcal9 · Feb 4, 2021

nbilling said:
It's a fair point (although expressed in a non-helpful way) that searching for items in a dark dungeon with no map or save/load mechanic is going to frustrate lots of players that would otherwise really enjoy the exploration, story, combat mechanics, etc. of the game. If you can make the game accessible to more people without compromising the experience for everyone then that's a win-win. I think the devs are aware of that and are working on it. If they said that those (accessibility) design elements are easier to integrate later on, while the core combat, physics, and AI are something that has to be settled first, I would take their word for it.

I'm very bad at reading maps, for reasons and I'll leave it at that, but even I could manage to find my way out or figure out where i am most of the time during my first playthroughs. This is not the problem that the game has in of itself, it is, and i'm sorry for saying this, the dumbed down kids who are used to easy games which require no effort at all. Yes I know how I sound, but I will tell you this, the current generation as well the games that have been made since early 10s are complete trash most of the time.

So yeah, how about Sui Gen being tough and gritty sometimes?

perpderp · Feb 4, 2021

I'm only at level 2 but boy do I look forward to more physics puzzles as those found in level 1. I was already on the bandwagon with the combat but fukc, I never thought I'd enjoy walking over a plank this much.

nbilling · Feb 5, 2021

Midcal9 said:
I'm very bad at reading maps, for reasons and I'll leave it at that, but even I could manage to find my way out or figure out where i am most of the time during my first playthroughs. This is not the problem that the game has in of itself, it is, and i'm sorry for saying this, the dumbed down kids who are used to easy games which require no effort at all. Yes I know how I sound, but I will tell you this, the current generation as well the games that have been made since early 10s are complete trash most of the time.

So yeah, how about Sui Gen being tough and gritty sometimes?

Modern games (Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker) make the convenience/accessibility features options, so you can have the less convenient experience by turning off the map, turning off visual-spatial UI indicators, turning off item stats in descriptions, etc.

I personally go back and forth about this stuff. Sometimes I just want to power through a part of a game using the map and using item stats and AoE indicators and all that jazz, because I'm a busy person and I want to get it done. Other times I'm not in a hurry and I want to just have fun exploring and learning things intuitively. People who have been playing games for a long time experience all of it eventually. Most people playing the really old PC RPGs, made without maps, use modern software to automatically map the dungeons out as they go to avoid the tedium, and that's okay.

Midcal9 · Feb 5, 2021

nbilling said:
Modern games (Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder: Kingmaker) make the convenience/accessibility features options, so you can have the less convenient experience by turning off the map, turning off visual-spatial UI indicators, turning off item stats in descriptions, etc.

I personally go back and forth about this stuff. Sometimes I just want to power through a part of a game using the map and using item stats and AoE indicators and all that jazz, because I'm a busy person and I want to get it done. Other times I'm not in a hurry and I want to just have fun exploring and learning things intuitively. People who have been playing games for a long time experience all of it eventually. Most people playing the really old PC RPGs, made without maps, use modern software to automatically map the dungeons out as they go to avoid the tedium, and that's okay.

You could justify it all, including skyrim like navigation system and quest pointers, even, if Exanima map size was at least 3 times larger. As it is right now getting lost seems to be part of the game, otherwise the game would feel far too short and cramped.

Devs want you to get lost, do you get it? Is it okay now or are you gonna keep on telling me how busy you are?

nbilling · Feb 5, 2021

Midcal9 said:
You could justify it all, including skyrim like navigation system and quest pointers, even, if Exanima map size was at least 3 times larger. As it is right now getting lost seems to be part of the game, otherwise the game would feel far too short and cramped.

Devs want you to get lost, do you get it? Is it okay now or are you gonna keep on telling me how busy you are?

The game is already fine by me, I enjoy playing it. I hope you know that no one is attacking you here, it's just people discussing a game. If you feel like you're getting wound up then just disengage from it because it's not worth getting upset about