Weapon sheath on the character?

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

... maces, flails, and axes and pole arms, definitely not...

Maces, flails and axes could be worn on belt by ring

Spoiler

and I found this funny sheath for flail...

 

[Tony]

If we're going to be picky about scabbard sizes then shouldn't we also be concerned about wearing armor that hasn't been properly fitted? I think both of these scenarios fall into the category of not fun when you have to pay a craftsman to fix every sheath and piece of armor you find. It just adds an unnecessary grind which stops you from what you want to be doing to constantly hunt down a craftsman then wait several hours for your item to be fixed.

 

[MathieuG89]

I don't understand what the hate is all about. Scabbards were widely used during those times and this isn't a myth but a fact. There are many evidences that suggest so. They're clearly depicted on medieval tapestry and drawn in ancient books. It seems pretty unrealistic for a human to carry his sword in his hand all day long without sheating it ever. What kind of display of aggressivity would that be if you entered an inn, let alone a town with your weapon drawn ready to strike? Swords or any weapons should be drawn when entering combat mode only.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

If we're going to be picky about scabbard sizes then shouldn't we also be concerned about wearing armor that hasn't been properly fitted? I think both of these scenarios fall into the category of not fun when you have to pay a craftsman to fix every sheath and piece of armor you find. It just adds an unnecessary grind which stops you from what you want to be doing to constantly hunt down a craftsman then wait several hours for your item to be fixed.

Agreed - that feature was in Venetica, but there were so few sets of armour.
Exanima/SG are including so many varieties of pieces of armour, so fitting every piece to your hero size will be horrible. But... what you say if you still could wear unfitted piece of armour, but with a bit lowered stats?

Scabbards were widely used during those times and this isn't a myth but a fact. There are many evidences that suggest so. They're clearly depicted on medieval tapestry and drawn in ancient books. It seems pretty unrealistic for a human to carry his sword in his hand all day long without sheating it ever. What kind of display of aggressivity would that be if you entered an inn, let alone a town with your weapon drawn ready to strike? Swords or any weapons should be drawn when entering combat mode only.

Agreed particularly. What is realistic and what is unrealistic in such games, huh?
In real life you can simple walk around with a sword in your hand and without any intention to attack somebody (of course it will be little weirdy, but why not).
I support idea of hotkeys of weapon, which is equpped, but holding in scabbards/belts/etc., with separated key switching combat mode. That's more realistic.

 

[Bullethead]

If we're going to be picky about scabbard sizes then shouldn't we also be concerned about wearing armor that hasn't been properly fitted?......

I don't understand what the hate is all about. Scabbards were widely used during those times and this isn't a myth but a fact......

I actually agree with both of you all (at least up to a point). And I wasn't hating on schabbards/sheaths, I was merely offering a justification and rationalization for their continued absence.

To me, and also for game mechanics, these things are purely cosmetic, and not cosmetic enough to be immersion-breaking. Nice things to have but BME has IMHO more important things to fix/add to the game than sheaths/scabbards. I'd rather they prioritize those things and if that ends up meaning they never get around to adding sheaths/scabbards, so be it. I can deal with it.

Besides, you can't zoom in close enough to really tell if you've got one or not, and I'm not the type who pays attention to my character's appearance anyway. My eyes are always on my surroundings and my character's equipment is all functional without regard for looks. So really, I hadn't even registered the fact that Exanima characters don't have sheaths until I saw this thread.

 

[Elaxter]

Agreed particularly. What is realistic and what is unrealistic in such games, huh?
In real life you can simple walk around with a sword in your hand and without any intention to attack somebody (of course it will be little weirdy, but why not).
I support idea of hotkeys of weapon, which is equpped, but holding in scabbards/belts/etc., with separated key switching combat mode. That's more realistic.

What's realistic in these types of games is historical facts.

Also I am certain that in those days you didn't walk around town with your sword drawn on the ready.

 

[Beaushizzle]

Also, FYI, scabbards were rarely "floppy". Most were of stiffened or boiled leather, wood, or leather with wood reinforcing.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Also, FYI, scabbards were rarely "floppy". Most were of stiffened or boiled leather, wood, or leather with wood reinforcing.

Normal construction for medieval scabbards is multiple layers: inside, you have a layer of woven wool - it protects the blade, and helps hold it in place. then you have thin laths of wood, about 1 - 1.5mm thick. Often poplar, sometimes oak. those are shaped with steam to bend around the edges and are glued together, forming the main core.
outside that, you get reinforcing layers. normally, the outermost layer is leather, tooled and patterned. Inside that, however, you sometimes find linen fabric, soaked in hide glue. that bonds to the wood core, and makes it much tougher than wood on its own.

Boiled leather wasn't used very regularly at all and a good vegetan leather with two layers is stiff enough for many uses. A few scabbards solely of leather exist, but they're not common.


---
regarding fitted armour: I'd love to see all armour be wearable, but the ability to take your favourite bits to an armourer, and it to be returned to you a day or two later with "fitted" on it, and it give you a tiny bit better mobility or the likes.

 

[dustbiter]

I would suggest avoiding the 'sword on the back' trope at all costs.

Go look at any _film_ with the hero carrying a sword on his back. Blade. the later highlander films (if you're a masochist) etc. the character will grab the sword, you get part-drawn... and cut! its a different camera angle, Sword out. In videogames, its always a clipping mess, or a sword that's magically connected to the shoulder by magnets.

Why?

Because unless the sword-blade is less than just 50-55cm (22"), back scabbards don't work. your arms, shoulder to palm, are only about 60cm, and that length shortens slightly when your shoulder is pointing up (all just through the way the joint and collarbones move). And of course, you need a little bit of that length to hold onto the handle.

In historical terms, they simply weren't used. If you've got a 2-hander, it wasn't carried on the back, it was carried over the shoulder - or on a cart. Even a 1m 25cm long longsword can be worn comfortably on the hip, and drawn rapidly in one single movement.

I always thought a quick release knot could loose the scabbard, the left hand could grab the bottom of the scabbard and pull it downwards and free while the right hand grips the sword handle to bring forward the sword when it is free of the scabbard.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

---
regarding fitted armour: I'd love to see all armour be wearable, but the ability to take your favourite bits to an armourer, and it to be returned to you a day or two later with "fitted" on it, and it give you a tiny bit better mobility or the likes.

I noticed this not too long ago, read the item descriptions. Also madoc mentioned armor from the same smith would fit better and give better coverage. I read it soomewhere on the site or kickstarter page.

http://dl.baremettle.com/SGD01.jpg

edit: correction, armor from the same smith will meet together better with less weak points.

 

[Hedgehog-of-Fog]

In this case, it turns out, a joint of the armor pieces should be considered: for example, as in the screenshot, wearing a helmet and boots of the same craftsman does not provide any improvement in maneuverability, and - in the case of greaves and boots - there is a joint between them, which is providing better movement, and a joint between greaves and other craftsman's (let's say) body armor (breastplate) is not considered.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

I corrected my previous post, Madoc mentioned armors have weak points at seams, eyeslots, armpits and such, what he wrote was along the lines of armor meeting together better and so these seams are smaller as it was made to fit together. I cannot rightly remember if it improves mobility, maybe @Tony @ZaratanCho @Murf can corroborate this.

 

[XxBoDxX]

I would suggest avoiding the 'sword on the back' trope at all costs.

Go look at any _film_ with the hero carrying a sword on his back. Blade. the later highlander films (if you're a masochist) etc. the character will grab the sword, you get part-drawn... and cut! its a different camera angle, Sword out. In videogames, its always a clipping mess, or a sword that's magically connected to the shoulder by magnets.

Why?

Because unless the sword-blade is less than just 50-55cm (22"), back scabbards don't work. your arms, shoulder to palm, are only about 60cm, and that length shortens slightly when your shoulder is pointing up (all just through the way the joint and collarbones move). And of course, you need a little bit of that length to hold onto the handle.

In historical terms, they simply weren't used. If you've got a 2-hander, it wasn't carried on the back, it was carried over the shoulder - or on a cart. Even a 1m 25cm long longsword can be worn comfortably on the hip, and drawn rapidly in one single movement.

Ah but this is why they use special scabbard for holding weapons on your back. If one of the sides were cut off the scabbard you could just slip it out without having to draw the full length of the weapon. Fast and easy without too much hassle.

EDIT: found an image close to what I was talking about.

EDIT 2: Im on my phone I couldn't get it to work properly. I'll come back on my comp later and show you guys.

EDIT 3: Ok here is the pic

 

[Yaar Podshipnik]

Already commented on in this post.

 

[cosmo bozo]

Ah but this is why they use special scabbard for holding weapons on your back. If one of the sides were cut off the scabbard you could just slip it out without having to draw the full length of the weapon. Fast and easy without too much hassle.

EDIT: found an image close to what I was talking about.

EDIT 2: Im on my phone I couldn't get it to work properly. I'll come back on my comp later and show you guys.

EDIT 3: Ok here is the pic

Already commented on in this post.

The post doesn't comment on the idea of a scabbard that is slit up one side though, which is something I've often thought about myself.... even if they are not historically accurate, there are ways around the problem back scabbards are not an impossible conundrum.....
and anyway, what is historically accurate for the world of Sui Generis?

 

[XxBoDxX]

Exactly! People for some reason want to apply this worlds historical setting to a low fantasy video game. Pretty sure it's in a different dimension. Who says they didn't invent those types of scabbards?

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Well, I've said it before, I'll say it again.

A 1/3rd sheath like that is going to fall apart, the design is not even remotely close to the simple durability of a wood and leather one-piece scabbard.

Its going to get rainwater running down the blade (especially a fullered blade) and collecting in the bottom of the sheath, damaging the blade. As it would be medieval leather, it would have to be vegetanned leather, not a chrome-tan - an entirely modern process. That contains tannins, which will chemically react with iron/steel, making the blade get stained black in areas it touched. if the leather's wet, it will corrode the steel significantly; active rusting. If the weather wet it will also deform and warp, because there's no underlying structure to it, like a proper scabbard.

Because its an all-leather construction, there's no support for the bottom of the sheath, meaning when its drawn, it flops all over the place. Due to the length, that's going to end up tangling between the user's legs, getting in the way. That's a common problem that reenactors who use soft leather sheaths, instead of rigid wooden-cored scabbards, by the way. And that's very much also something you really don't want in a real fight when your life's at stake. You also dont want something that's attached over your shoulder with great big hooks on it that are screaming "use me as a grappling point" to your opponent, who can use the stuff you're wearing to your disadvantage.

Then there's the whole space issue. to draw over the shoulder means you're going to have to turn the blade at shoulder height. lets say for simplicity, you're 1m 80, and the sword blade is 1.10m long, with a 40cm hilt Well, I just did a quick check with a 14th C longsword that's got a 97cm blade... and I hit the 2.5m high ceiling. If you're in a rush, you need to easily have a 3m ceiling height to practically draw over the shoulder (plus a metre of clear space behind you), or you're going to be hitting the roof. Now ingame we might not have a ceiling, but I cant really envisage the gloomy dungeons of SG and Exanima are blessed with high, bright airy ceilings in every corridor...
Outdoors it would be fine. But guess what? Outdoors, you can use a normal scabbard, and carry it on your horse.



When drawn, it will also lose rigidity, meaning it makes it utterly impractical to sheath. Unless you're wanting to play "stab myself in the back of the leg" while poking around blindly like a drunken virgin, you're left having to unstrap the thing, turn it round so its facing your front, use both hands, one holding your sword, the other the scabbard and thread the tip into the gap for the bottom part of the sheath, then line up the top, notch it over these two oversized hooks, and secure it. then take the assembly, sling it over the shoulder, and tighten up the baldric so you dont have it slip.

Or... you just prop it on your shoulder. Hmm. I wonder which is more practical?

And, all, meanwhile, while the contraption fails to provide any actual protection for the edge of the weapon, or protection from the elements - the two most important elements of the purpose of a scabbard. In this regard, its about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

That's what I mean that it wont work.


Its not about applying a historical setting to a fantasy world, its about the fact that if things are being used, they have to actually do the job. and those scabbards simply dont work. (Aside from the aesthetic horrors of tartan-clad renfair cockwombles). If it works in a historically plausible manner, that's just a bonus for my tastes.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Incidentally, for my work I've recently been working on split scabbards, based off detailed paintings from the later 13th through to mid-14th century, for falchions.

They're interesting things, but what I'm finding is, they really arent very good. a scabbard needs to have a certain amount of tension holding it in place, and the open side doesnt let that happen easily. the only way to secure it, is through a buckle and strap arrangement, which makes drawing it rapidly impractical. (you possibly could, cutting the strap, but it would ruin it.) the more I work on that, the more certain I am that they simply would not work properly on a 2h sword in the slightest, its far more likely to result in horrible cracking noises and the wooden core of the scabbard splintering out the moment that any torque was put through it in drawing or moving around.

 

[Tyon]

I'd much prefer if two handed sword and polearms were carried around on the shoulder, and then you could carry your torch in the other hand. Once you go into combat mode by pressing tab, your character would drop their torch and grip their weapon with both hands. I think it looks cool, and it's practical. A scabbard on the back honestly doesn't look cool to me, maybe because I'm spoiled by historical stuff.

 

[Zoltan]

I am surprised to see how much you guys are going into such details, but I understand the passion behind every one of these posts.

I believe that Leonard quote is fitting here "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication"

Think about how the character is already getting stuck with his weapon and torch, I am afraid that if they had to include multiple weapons on to the character it would make it even worse, maybe by excluding them from collision.

I still would love to see more details like scabbard on character as long it does not impact the game-play.