Wearing full chainmail under full plate armor. Realistic? Ineffective?

[Tyrek]

After reaching master rank in arena it struck me that I was wearing a FULL set of chainmail underneath my full plate armor... But does that even make sense? Has this ever been a thing in history? Would it even help?

It feels like the plate would pretty much render the chainmail useless and make it deadweight.
Maybe there should be a huge encumbrance penalty for this combo? Edit: Artificial penalties do not belong in Exanima.

Edit: We are not talking about gaps. Protecting gaps with chainmail makes perfect sense.

 

[The Witcher]

First of all its not chainmail its mail or maille and now at the topic around 15-16 century they didnt only have mail under plate they had a gambeson too they did that to protect the gaps from slashing and piercing damage it was good at stopping blunt force too and armors didnt weight that much a full plate set with mail and a gambeson underneath had the weight of around 35 kilos and all that weight went to the whole body not only one part today soldiers carry around 40 kilos around 25 on the back (Backpack) and 10 on the chest (Bulletproof Vest) and the gun and ammo

 

[Tyon]

Maille doublets and skirts were worn underneath plate armor to protect the gaps, I think even full on maille hauberks were worn underneath plate armor at some point but were replaced by just maille skirts.

 

[The Witcher]

Fact:Good quality gambesons are better protecting against slashing,piercing and Blunt damage than mail

 

[Tyrek]

First of all its not chainmail its mail or maille and now at the topic around 15-16 century they didnt only have mail under plate they had a gambeson too they did that to protect the gaps from slashing and piercing damage it was good at stopping blunt force too and armors didnt weight that much a full plate set with mail and a gambeson underneath had the weight of around 35 kilos and all that weight went to the whole body not only one part today soldiers carry around 40 kilos around 25 on the back (Backpack) and 10 on the chest (Bulletproof Vest) and the gun and ammo

I am well aware that gambesons were worn beneath armor and that the weight is spread evenly making it a lot less cumbersome.

But if chainmail was only used to cover gaps why would anyone wear it beneath the entire suit of plate? Wouldn't it be localized to any actual gaps? What I'm saying is that when struck right on a piece of plate, any chainmail behind it wouldn't help much. Sure the gambeson cushions the blow, but the chainmail shouldn't help unless someone hits a gap. And right now I believe the armor system in the game will add the chainmails damage reduction to any part where there is chainmail.

 

[Tyrek]

Maybe the full plate in Exanima just has unrealistically few/small gaps which makes it feel more redundant than it would have actually been.

 

[The Witcher]

no its a normal plate armor with opens under the armpits and some around the legs and arms they where never fighting by hitting the whole armor itself they mostly used with swords halfswording holding the sword one hand from the grip and the other on the middle of the blade trying to stab with a lot of power in the openings check this

 

[Sneil]

Man, a grammar Nazi would have a field day in this thread. Sorry, had to say it.

 

[NachoDawg]

How valid the combination is is a very important question, but I have to point out two very important things in regards to this

1) If it is historically inaccurate, or physically and weird to have mail under plates, and that should be represented in the game, then the correct way to go would be to just not allow the combination.

2) A penality on the particular combination is ridiculous because OP suggested it to be "artificial", but, I could picture a "you are wearing way too much stuff" penalty. Same way too much weight has a physical property, maybe too padded joints are harder to move?

 

[Tyrek]

I must agree that an artificial penalty for the combination would be stupid.

I guess what is bothering me is that the defense bonuses will stack even though a blow to the center of your chest plate never even touches the mail. (A gambeson should totally stack though)

Then again I don't know exactly how armor stacks in the game. But I'm assuming it's additive.

 

[CalenLoki]

As already said, it's historically correct.
But that aside, just look at mail statistics - it protects mostly against slashing and piercing, so types of damage that is almost completely nullified by plate. And it adds very little against crush and force - so the only thing that really matter against plate.
So in game it's already "dead weight" - no need for artificial limitations.

 

[Tyrek]

Aah, I didn't consider the fact that slashing protection above a certain level might actually already be useless because nothing deals that much slashing damage.

I guess I'm stuck in the reasoning that other games usually have where higher numbers are always better x)

 

[Elaxter]

It's certainly not unrealistic.

 

[Don Kanaille]

The OP is actually right. A full suit of mail under a full suit of plate, like the ones we currently have in the Master rank arena, is unhistoric and not very logical. There was a transitory period where mail and larger plate parts were worn in conjucntion, like a breastplate over a mail hauberk. But when plate became more refined, the mail layer faded away until all it was left were a few patches on the gambeson/arming doublet covering the most vulnerable areas like the armpits; something like this. (Even later, plate articulation even on the joints became so good that there was basically no more need for mail).

Don´t make a mistake, mail is actually a quite heavy type of armor, usually heavier than plate. Wearing a full set of both would not only weigh you down extremely, but it would also make a good fit of the later kinds of plate armor pretty much impossible - especially on the legs where the plates have to be tailored very closely to the wearers leg shape. So the extreme disadvantage of the extra weight and the extra hindrance would only be countered by a very minor gain in protection, and 90% of said protection gain could also be achieved with just a few mail patches, which is why that´s how it was done.


On a similar note, the layer of padding underneath the armor also became much less bulky and more closely tailored than the earlier stand-alone gambesons, losing a noticable part of their protective capability to better function as a fundation for the plate. They were less about granting protection and more about making plate more comfortable to wear (and also a bit about shock absorbtion of course). But when you look at the bulky earlier gambesons there is no way you could wear one of these under a later plate armor. Again, especially on the (lower) legs there was pretty much no padding at all, just the greave sitting tightly on the calf.



So, that would mean

- the Master-kind plate armor should not be worn over a thick gambeson
- not over a full chain shirt
- not over thick, padded trousers
- not over mail leggins
and instead, require a specialized arming doublet, ideally with mail patches (and, well basically just regular pants for the legs).

Edit: However, plate sabatons should actually be worn over regular shoes instead of replacing them like they do now. Sabatons aren´t stand alone equipment, they are more like a shell put on top of your shoe (though we could just assume the current in-game sabatons come already together with a dedicated pair of shoes, which would explain why they completely replace other footwear).


PS: If you want to learn more about armor, here is a very informative Youtube channel. Granted, this guy´s main armor is from the transitory period and still uses a lot of mail, but he goes a long way to explain development, function and use of armor in general.

 

[Bobob]

Spoiler

The OP is actually right. A full suit of mail under a full suit of plate, like the ones we currently have in the Master rank arena, is unhistoric and not very logical. There was a transitory period where mail and larger plate parts were worn in conjucntion, like a breastplate over a mail hauberk. But when plate became more refined, the mail layer faded away until all it was left were a few patches on the gambeson/arming doublet covering the most vulnerable areas like the armpits; something like this. (Even later, plate articulation even on the joints became so good that there was basically no more need for mail).

Don´t make a mistake, mail is actually a quite heavy type of armor, usually heavier than plate. Wearing a full set of both would not only weigh you down extremely, but it would also make a good fit of the later kinds of plate armor pretty much impossible - especially on the legs where the plates have to be tailored very closely to the wearers leg shape. So the extreme disadvantage of the extra weight and the extra hindrance would only be countered by a very minor gain in protection, and 90% of said protection gain could also be achieved with just a few mail patches, which is why that´s how it was done.


On a similar note, the layer of padding underneath the armor also became much less bulky and more closely tailored than the earlier stand-alone gambesons, losing a noticable part of their protective capability to better function as a fundation for the plate. They were less about granting protection and more about making plate more comfortable to wear (and also a bit about shock absorbtion of course). But when you look at the bulky earlier gambesons there is no way you could wear one of these under a later plate armor. Again, especially on the (lower) legs there was pretty much no padding at all, just the greave sitting tightly on the calf.



So, that would mean

- the Master-kind plate armor should not be worn over a thick gambeson
- not over a full chain shirt
- not over thick, padded trousers
- not over mail leggins
and instead, require a specialized arming doublet, ideally with mail patches (and, well basically just regular pants for the legs).



PS: If you want to learn more about armor, here is a very informative Youtube channel. Granted, this guy´s main armor is from the transitory period and still uses a lot of mail, but he goes a long way to explain development, function and use of armor in general.

A god.

 

[Don Kanaille]

A god.

I´m not sure if that was a compliment, but if it was: thank you. However, calling me "Don" is sufficient :>

 

[NachoDawg]

@Don Kanaille You write well and have a way of making history come alive. I always enjoy your walls of text, so never stop!

 

[Don Kanaille]

You´re making me blush^^

 

[MindSliver]

I recall watching one of the earlier videos on Sui Generis when they were talking about armor and mentioned the importance of encumbrance. How players will want to choose what they use for armor and how much so that they can maintain the speed, maneuverability, and protection they want for their play style. I think imposing limitations based on what was "appropriate" may go against the vision of the game. if someone wants a full suit of chain under a full suit of plate then they can do that. But they have to deal with the added encumbrance... which they do. I've also seen a few posts from the dev's talking about changes to the armor system. He mentioned specifically, "more does not mean better". I'm betting this issue is already dealt with in game, we simply don't have the ability to detect the difference.

 

[Don Kanaille]

While the extra layer of mail already does add a lot of encumbrance, it is not enough to simulate what would actually happen. Reaslistically speaking, that amount of mail would not just hinder you a bit more, it would stop the plate armor from functioning. (Full) plate armor only workes properly when it is tailored to the body, which the chain armor or overly thick padding prevents.

I´m not stomping my foot down claiming "It has to be done this way!", but I am confirming the OP in that his assumptions are correct and that there are logical reasons why advanced plate armor got rid of the mail underneath.