Procedural Generation

[fluffydino2000]

I think the main thing to address here is the fact that the two aren't mutually exclusive. If they make this amazing hand-crafted world and a talented modder makes a mod that allows a fully procedurally generated world (characters, locations, dungeons etc) then nobody would complain. That's really the point I'd like to discuss, don't think of procedural generation as something that'll limit another or take up dev time. Ignore that. Instead, just think of the possibilities of it in this game. Komuflage makes the point of quests being dull. But with this game, do you even need to generate quests? Could you not just generate interesting relationships and a few problems for the world and let the quests make themselves? It's the dynamic nature of this game that gives it a chance I work well for procedurally generated stories.

 

[Komuflage]

You got to drop your prejudgement firstly to understand what I'm saying in the first place. How come you are so certain that you gonna feel flat and dull as if you have played the game already. It makes no sense.

And about your last sentence, I didn't get what you are trying to say but as far as what I understand, you already start to discover new things by procedural generation, without it you can't ever discover already discovered. Discovery is viable only for new things, and not their 2nd times.

I can only base my speculations on previous experiences. And I've never seen a spectacular/memorable place/world that's been procedural generated.
Same thing goes for games with randomized quest, I've never experienced a randomized quest with any depth, they're often all the same.

About the discovery point. Pretty much I think it's pointless to trying to discover the world if it's procedural generated, since you wont be able to revisit it in a new playthrough.

 

[tiny lampe]

It fell so pointless trying to discover everything, when you know you'll never see it again.

About the discovery point. Pretty much I think it's pointless to trying to discover the world if it's procedural generated, since you wont be able to revisit it in a new playthrough.

Reading these two posts left me very confused until I remembered a previous post of your. This one:

And since I'm also a fan of speedrunning, knowing exactly how the world looks like, and were all the items are, is very important. And with PG, competitive speedruning becomes impossible..

In my opinion, a procedurally-generated world doesn't make discovery pointless. On the contrary, since every time you start a new playthrough the 'good items' are in different locations, exploration is encouraged because you never know where you will find 'that sword that you used to like so much'. Since finding it again is as hard in the 10th playthrough as it was in the 1st, the joy of discovering it is left intact.

I will agree, however, that precedurally-generated worlds make metagaming activities (like speedruns) impossible. I think your dislike for procedurally-generated worlds has more to do with the inability to metagame than with the joy of discovery?

 

[Komuflage]

In my opinion, a procedurally-generated world doesn't make discovery pointless. On the contrary, since every time you start a new playthrough the 'good items' are in different locations, exploration is encouraged because you never know where you would find 'that sword that you used to like so much'. Since finding it again is as hard in the 10th playthrough than in the 1st, the joy of discovering it is left intact.

I will agree, however, that precedurally-generated worlds make metagaming activities (like speedruns) impossible. I think your dislike for procedurally-generated worlds has more to do with the inability to metagame than with the joy of discovery?

Speedrunning or not, frankly don't like it. (PG that is) I dunno how I can formulate it better though.
I guess I find it pointless to really try to discover a area in a PG world, since it'll change the next time I'm there.

Why spend 30minute to look behind every stone, if the game will just create more stones?
It's the same thing with leveling in a game, a lot of people starts to get bored when they reached max level, since there is nothing to "work against/for" after that. Me I like it when I'm max level, because then I'm finished with the character I've created. It's a sense of accomplishment, same thing goes for discovering the world. Once I've discovered everything.

However, as fluffy says, if we can get both then we get the best from both world.
And that PG dungeon some1 mentioned seems like a good idea.

 

[tiny lampe]

Why spend 30minute to look behind every stone, if the game will just create more stones?

Wait...when I picture procedurally-generated world, I imagine that when you start a new game the whole world is procedurally generated and then it stays the same for the whole playthrough. Only when you start a new game the world changes again. For your post you seem to believe that the world keeps changing even as you play?

 

[fluffydino2000]

What about if there is a seed based system. No doubt there will be a few pretty special seeds that make truly remarkable conditions. Then it doesn't have to be new every time. It could be, or you could select from a selection worlds you've explored before. It'd be like having a modder who makes new worlds over and over again.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Also to address Tiny's last post, I haven't been proposing an infinite world, but a procedurally generated limited one. They could be huge though. I don't know the details of how the game processes things that aren't happening near you, but if that's small, I see no reason why you couldn't have planets worth of content in one world. That would be excellent for discovery, you could make several character and explore one huge world and still never discover it all but no that it is limited and that you are achieving something.

 

[Komuflage]

Wait...when I picture procedurally-generated world, I imagine that when you start a new game the whole world is procedurally generated and then it stays the same for the whole playthrough. Only when you start a new game the world changes again. For your post you seem to believe that the world keeps changing even as you play?

It was just a way to keep the sentence short, "Pretty much I think it's pointless to trying to discover the world if it's procedural generated, since you wont be able to revisit it in a new playthrough."

Nonetheless the point is the same.

 

[tiny lampe]

It was just a way to keep the sentence short, "Pretty much I think it's pointless to trying to discover the world if it's procedural generated, since you wont be able to revisit it in a new playthrough."

Nonetheless the point is the same.

Then I sincerely don't understand how the fact that things won't be in the sample place in the 3rd playthrough affects how you experience the world in your 2nd playthrough. I understand that this is bad for speedruns but besides this, I do't get it. Your lizard brain has me confused Komuflage...(xD)

 

[Komuflage]

Then I sincerely don't understand how the fact that things won't be in the sample place in the 3rd playthrough affects how you experience the world in your 2nd playthrough. I understand that this is bad for speedruns but besides this, I do't get it. Your lizard brain has me confused Komuflage...(xD)

But it's like I said, what's the point of turning every stone, if they won't be there in your next playthrough?
Anyways, might not be any point discussing it further. I know PG is a big thing since a few years back, but I never liked it.
So I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[BigT2themax]

Man, you guys are really getting into this discussion, huh?

It's pretty obvious that procedurally generated (PG) and hand-crafted (HC) both have very good things going for them.

PG gives the game near infinite replayability if you really like exploring, but the game world would kinda end up being a bit boring and not very memorable or special in any way.

HC can be very well designed and memorable and special and all that awesomeness, but it may tend towards things being a bit samey, where you end up knowing all the locations of things you're looking for and every time you decide to play through the game again you end up going through the same thing to get the best things for whatever playstyle you've decided to go for, and whatnot.

There's also the whole speed-running thing, which, to be honest, I don't think would work very well for Sui Generis. Most speedruns are either based on either using very high skill to do things quickly and efficiently, or exploiting bugs and glitches to skip parts of the game. The skill thing won't really work for a game like this, as that's more applicable to a platform game or something like that, and exploiting unintended glitches would likely not work very well, as Bare Mettle would notice and probably end up fixing the glitch if it's a major one.

But, people still love to speedrun things, so PG isn't really going to work for speedrunning (and who are we to deny them the opportunity to do so?), so it's got that against it too.

Really, I kinda tend towards PG because I like exploring, bit it's probably best to go with HC, to be honest. Any ideas we could come up with that combine PG and HC with HC bits floating statically in a PG environment would probably not work very well, or just defeat the purpose of having the game be HC or PG.

Plus, it would take up some valuable development time implementing any PG environments, and Bare Mettle weren't planning on having PG environments, so it would kinda mess up plans a little bit, no?

We could probably just hope for the best and see if someone makes a cool mod that generates a land-mass and a dungeon, or maybe ask Bare Mettle nicely, once the game comes out, if they could consider adding in some PG dungeon with an entrance in some small corner of the world, or releasing the map-making tools so we can work on said mods...

So yeah, having Sui Generis be HC initially, then seeing if either BM can add some small PG segment as an extra after release, or someone can make a mod, or for some other way to have a PG world be an optional possibility for those who want it would be the best thing to do, really. It would (hopefully) please people who like HC worlds and PG worlds as well, since you would end up having an option for one or the other.

 

[Tessaya]

Simple things could make a big change without having to randomize the whole world (all examples, not knowing how will the SG island be populated) :
- if there are multiple towns and the main antagonist is to be one of their leader (or a conspiration type with multiple leaders from multiple towns), then in each playthrough it could change, leading to events unfolding in other directions (even if the main goal is the same, being "world domination" or just every other thing, strategy is just not the same depending on where you start on the map, a thing RTS players know well)
- if a town has a "center of faith" like big main temple, with its own agenda, it could also change location in different games (starting in the same location as the main antagonist could lead to them making an alliance or the temple being wiped, the possibilities are endless ...)
- relationships between the different lords could be randomized (the world could even be generated with factions at war or in alliances favoring trades etc ...)

 

[tiny lampe]

So far replayability is been used as an argument in favor of procedurally-generated environments (PGE). While I myself agree that PGE enhances exploration and hence replayability, I'd also like to point out that other sources of replayability do exist. One is the combat. Thanks to the physics, unique gameplay and intelligent AI, Sui Generis offers a combat system that feels right, is rich in approaches and can be both challenging and fun. Don't underestimate the impact that all this can have on replayability. The other aspect, and perhaps the one closer to the variety that PGE can bring is the story. Compared to the combat, we know very little about the story. We do know however that all NPCs will have goals that they will strive to reach and that the decisions of any NPC may end up having an impact on many other NPCs, as if all were nodes of a network. If this is like this, imagine the variety we can get even if there are no PCE; butterfly effect people, butterfly effect.

So, if we can get replayability from other sources, I would personally prefer to keep PGE to a minimum. I agree that the underworld may be an ideal guinea pig if BareMettle feels inclined to experiment with PGE. As for the rest of the world, I personally want to keep seeing the beautiful, hand-crafted places that Agnes creates

 

[Madoc]

We're not going to feature procedurally generated environments, the closest thing is the connectivity of the underworld which will vary and not allow access to all areas in one playthrough.

We are however introducing various "procedural" elements to offer a different experience on each playthrough. Various plotlines will have different starting conditions and will also evolve differently, a lot of items may or may not be there and will be chosen from pools of items so you will often find items in the same places but not always the same items. There's also a good deal of procedural methods employed in the specifics of items, this is something we're trying to finalise now as we want it fully functional for the alpha.

Another thing that should encourage replayability is different builds. Though it's possible to eventually retrain skills there are forms of thaumaturgy and base physique which can only be defined at character creation.

 

[BigT2themax]

That's actually quite a good bit of variation between world instances and playthroughs. It's good to hear that items may not always be in the same place every time you play, as that removes a big part of the 'repetitiveness' of multiple playthroughs if you know exactly what items you're going to find and exactly where to find them, too.

I really want to know more about how the dynamic story is going to work and whatnot, but it's probably better for you guys to take your time before telling people about it.

Also, do I detect a hint of news about the alpha? Maybe even that it's possibly being finalised now? :3

 

[Fawz]

That type of procedural generation sounds just great, especially if the dynamic quest/NPC behavior system makes every encounter feel fresh.

Really becoming more and more interested in how the underworld will be handled. It sounds like it'll be a long, dark and gripping journey through the unknown!

 

[Kale]

Randomly generated or procedurally generated?

As far as I understand it, procedurally generated just means that it's generated by procedure instead of a pre-made complete "thing." Like mixing different thing's to make something.

 

[Tessaya]

The process of randomisation is in itself a procedure. And in a game there is never true random generation as you could have things that don't make any sense at all.

 

[Wyrdgrave]

IT would be beyond impressive if there were ever a game like Sui Generis with the in-depth procedural generation of Dwarf Fortress. But I would accept at least a procedurally generated world with procedural quests.

 

[BigT2themax]

IT would be beyond impressive if there were ever a game like Sui Generis with the in-depth procedural generation of Dwarf Fortress. But I would accept at least a procedurally generated world with procedural quests.

It's not going to be a procedurally generated world. It'll be the same world each playthrough, with some minor changes in the layout of the underworld and the location of weapons and other items. However, the quests and storyline are slated to be dynamic, in that what you do can change what happens in the story and that quests are just natural occurrences based on the AI characters interacting with one another and having goals and desires that they try and achieve, which is where you can go in and do something or other to help them or stop them if they're doing something you don't approve of, all completely dynamically.

At least, that's what I think it's going to be like. That's how the devs have described their plans for the AI, at least.