Procedural Generation

[fluffydino2000]

This has been discussed briefly in other threads but I figure it's a big topic that has lots of points of discussion. Also, let me point out that I'm well aware that Sui Generis won't be procedurally generated. Excluding procedural terrain generation in the editor and procedural animations of course.

Procedural generation has come into the lime light in the past few years mainly because of minecraft. A lot of people didn't even know it existed before notch came along and there are a lot of games now that promise procedural generation in some aspects. The most common being procedurally generated maps.

For RPGs though, there's always the issue of the lack of design. For minecraft's survival mode, you don't need someone to sculpt a world for it to be fun. But an RPG needs to hang together a story to give direction to the player, which is nearly impossible with a randomly generated world. Any RPG that I know of that has randomly generated elements (and I use the term RPG loosely) basically creates dull fetch quests that don't really connect in any meaningful way.

So why did I make this thread? Well, Sui Generis has the chance to be a game changer. With dynamic AI that have there own motivations, and a lack of scripted quests, the resulting stories and paths the game can take are almost like guided randomly generated ones. If I understand the proposed AI correctly, the main villain in the game likely has an evil motivation, and his starting conditions are favourable to allow him to pursue his ambitions. Whether he succeeds or not is determined by the player.

So, if the game does in fact operate like this, could it not be entirely randomly generated (in story, I mean). You could take the same map and world and all the same items, but make the characters motivations and their personalities random. This would create a new storyline, provided you kept a decent balance of evil doers and people trying to stop them.

But why stop there, with random characters, why not have a random map, and random loot (although a slightly different situation)? This game is the only one I've ever heard of that promises the ability to assign meaning to your characters actions whilst also allowing them to have potentially no affect on the world. And it's the only one that promises the ability to change it's storyline without scripted choices.

There are other ways to incorporate procedural generation into SG. The underworld and loot spots could all be randomised to keep that sense of the unknown every-time you play. This is probably the most likely of any procedural generation and also probably the easiest.

What are your thoughts on procedural generation, in general and in terms of Sui Generis? What other ways can you think of of implementing procedural generation into this game?

 

[Cooper Holt]

I think that many areas of the underworld should be procedurally generated, I think it would be new and awesome every time you go. Practically infinite areas to go to, constantly new places to discover, etc.

 

[Anubis]

Like you said, procedural generation can be tricky in an RPG.

I feel if handled well, it can make a significant difference in keeping game play fresh and interesting. The idea of randomized loot spots is probably the best option, but also they could have sections of dungeons generated, which would keep layouts unique and interesting.

Perhaps they could incorporate a few totally randomized dungeons, which could be speckled throughout the world randomly among the hand-crafted dungeons. The entrances could be sinkholes, or crevices in rock that could be discovered by thorough players. The layout and size of these could be determined completely by the game.

 

[BigT2themax]

I actually initially thought the game world of Sui Generis was going to be randomly generated, so I was a little bummed out when I found out it wasn't.

But, at the same time, a hand-crafted world would look and feel much more magical and amazing than one put together by a computer, at least until we can get the technology to make a world look amazing and hand-crafted and unique by just giving a computer a few orders.

As for the underworld, I'm hoping the team might decide to set it out where:

• The entrances are all in set places and perhaps are hand-crafted, so they coincide well with the overworld
• Important areas are hand-crafted and look unique and special and memorable, but you could maybe just put them anywhere in the underworld, or at least anywhere in a specific section
• and the rest of the underworld, the parts that aren't really that important, could be randomly generated and put together, with new locations and loot locations and enemy placements and traps showing up each time you generate a new world instance

I know Bare Mettle don't like the idea of doing that, but I really like the idea of having more things to explore each time I play the game. To be fair, if they'd prefer to focus on memorable and awesome level design, then that's also pretty good. I mean, a well-designed zelda dungeon sticks in your mind and you often marvel at the brilliance of the level design and the aesthetics of the dungeon and they're generally pretty awesome, really.

Although, thinking about it, maybe they could have an underworld they already made before and designed and whatnot, but somewhere on the island, there'll be an entrance to a dungeon that's procedurally generated and new each time you make a new world, or perhaps every time you attempt to conquer the dungeon.

Maybe have it as some sort of end-game final challenge for those who're wanting the ultimate challenge, or something? Like those many-floor arena dungeons hidden in places in some recent zelda games, like the one on outset island in wind waker, and the one under the bridge piece in the desert in twilight princess? Except, instead of just enemies and such getting harder and more numerous as you go down, the dungeon also gets more expansive and labarynthine and there's more traps and hazards, but there's better loot as well, so if you head down, get some treasures or whatever and come back up, you can keep what you find in there?

Okay, now I'm just spouting off random ideas that have nothing to do with the topic. Nevermind.

(It'd be pretty sweet, though.)

 

[fluffydino2000]

Those are some great ideas. It would be nice to have a Legend of Grimrock like experience in a dungeon in SG.

I'm curious, will it be possible to have huge vertical expanses in the underworld? So far, we've only seen caves and tunnels on a flat plane that never changes vertically (much).

It'd also be cool if there was some kind of sub game-mode which literally just put you in a randomly generated underworld that lasts for ever. Just for the heck of it.

 

[Cooper Holt]

You're right, we haven't seen any subterranean altitude variation

 

[Tom]

This thread poses a very important question, which I'm surprised hasn't been raised before.

I'm eagerly waiting for the devs' response.

 

[Cooper Holt]

And I as well.

 

[BrecMadak]

This thread poses a very important question, which I'm surprised hasn't been raised before.
I'm eagerly waiting for the devs' response.

Indeed. Procedural generation is one of most important feature which raises replayability of a game to top. Back in 1996 Diablo has made it near perfectly; flaws being level entrances may be generated just too close to each other at times. It was the best ever done in an isometric H&S, D2's was a failing attempt and had failed to surpass the former. And it was what made a lot of people still playing despite after all these years, it aged very well.

Second point is since SG world would be relatively small compared to your average rpg worlds, procedural generation is becoming even more 'must have'. Additionally by giving a higher priority to procedural generation, BM has the chance to compensate the pint sized world. so what we would have is both a full meaningfully structured world mould with multiple ways to be experienced from different aspects. Hitting two birds with one stone.

So while at some significiant places would give no harm by remaining static, I'd urge devs to make almost any other places to be gone with procedural generation for the longevity of SG, and make players even more starve for.

 

[malfunction]

Path of Exile is the real spiritual successor to Diablo in terms of procedurally generated levels. They're so beautifully crafted that half the time you wouldn't know they're randomly generated. The problem is it doesn't have much of an effect on gameplay or story. The entire story is scripted beforehand, and the kind/number of enemies you'll encounter in each area is always the same, so the only reason to force a new instance of an area is to spawn new creatures to fight.

At the very least, the procedural generation increases replay value of each individual level as it forces you to explore the levels thoroughly every time (since you can't learn to avoid nooks and crannies that you know there'll be nothing down). It had the same effect in Diablo in my opinion.

The real power of procedural generation would be to seriously change the state of the game world every time you start a new game. More than just the geographical location, you'd want villages to be entirely different in wealth, culture, population, and their relationship with other settlements.

So if the Bare Mettle team won't be able to pull that kind of high level, game-changing randomization off, I'd much rather they focus on hand-crafting a very detailed and interesting world than on building a shallow procedural generation system that does nothing more than shuffle the terrain about. And if it's even close to the level of detail of something like Skyrim then I could hardly complain about a lack of content or replayability.

 

[fluffydino2000]

You make a great point. If you are going to go for procedural generation of anything beyond loot spots and the underworld sub-areas, you need to do it properly. Obviously, keep the world you want to create, and make it as you imagined it. But for a different mode, make it so everything (except the core-mechanics and most of the equipment (too difficult to balance otherwise)) changes. Characters, locations, terrain, buildings (interior and exterior if possible), the size of the world, the state of the world. It will add so much re-playability. And if there are seeds and ways to influence the likelihood of certain factors, you may have made the perfect game.

I'd like to ask, in the future, way after release, is this possible? Probable? Or very unlikely? Is it something you want to achieve but doubt you can, or do you dislike the idea? I want the hand-crafted, balanced and thought out experience you are designing but I also want limitless possibilities. And to me, this is the perfect way of giving it to us. That, and mod tools, but the ease and sheer amount of content this would produce would make it superior imo than mod tools. Although mod tools would be able to change other aspects of the game so don't overlook them.

 

[mcmanusaur]

@above, there was a slightly older kickstarter RPG project that attempted to do just that (and was otherwise an ASCII-based roguelike) called Cult: Awakening of the Old Ones and then later renamed to Empyrea. It was being developed by just one guy, so that has a little to do with the fact that it was ASCII-based, but he ended up giving up on the project, and what you describe is definitely a huge undertaking. A huge undertaking that I'd love to believe is possible some time in the future, but maybe not just yet.

Personally I'm not much of a fan of procedurally-generated loot, even though I like procedural generation stuff in general. I guess it has to do with the fact that loot in RPGs is already sufficiently impersonal with its "+1's" and such, and procedurally generating it tends to just add to the sense that the loot simply exists for you to amass and sell in large dungeons hauls. Some people like that kind of RPG, but I'm more of a fan of only carrying items of importance to my character(s), and with a million +1 daggers scattered about, it's sort of difficult to become immersed. Really, the same goes for procedurally generated dungeons; as a rule I'm much more interested in exploring the overworld than going on dungeon crawls, so any procedural generation/simulation stuff pertaining to the overworld would probably appeal to me.

That said, I was also under the initial impression/hope that SG's world would be procedurally generated.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Oh, I'm with you on the loot thing. If there is any random loot in this game it should be random artefacts that would be generated in a fully randomly generated world (as I described above). When I mentioned loot, I meant loot spots. So you wouldn't look in the same places for legendary weapons etc.

I am also aware at how huge the undertaking would be. I don't think it would be a problem for the terrain, more for things like settlements and stuff. To make a town feel individual whilst being randomly generated I can imagine is hugely difficult. Possible, but difficult.

 

[cosmo bozo]

Personally I'm not much of a fan of procedurally-generated loot, even though I like procedural generation stuff in general. I guess it has to do with the fact that loot in RPGs is already sufficiently impersonal with its "+1's" and such, and procedurally generating it tends to just add to the sense that the loot simply exists for you to amass and sell in large dungeons hauls. Some people like that kind of RPG, but I'm more of a fan of only carrying items of importance to my character(s), and with a million +1 daggers scattered about, it's sort of difficult to become immersed.

I hope there aren't +1 weapons...I hate that.
what better way to remind people that it's all just a game than put numbers on stuff.

As for procedural generation, it can be good if done properly, but I get the impression that SG will be hand crafted.

 

[Komuflage]

Personally I'm against procedural generation. (PG from now on)
I prefer a handcrafted and memorable world, rather than a randomized one that most likely won't have the same depth as a handcrafted can have.

Like BigT says "I mean, a well-designed zelda dungeon sticks in your mind and you often marvel at the brilliance of the level design and the aesthetics of the dungeon and they're generally pretty awesome, really."
This for me is very much true. There are quite a few places in different games that I've really fallen in love to, and being able to revisit them 10 years later is for me amazing.

Same thing goes for Weapons and Armour, handcrafted, well thought and balanced items is favoured over randomized ones. randomized just creates this loot fest like Diabo/Dead Island/Borderlands, where a lot of the items you find will be completely worthless, but you don't know until you've read the tool tip, hence you most look at "every" item that's dropped.

And since I'm also a fan of speedrunning, knowing exactly how the world looks like, and were all the items are, is very important. And with PG, competitive speedruning becomes impossible.

Going back to the first point, there simply are some things that a PG world cant create.
A spectacular well designed city/castle or similar, in a very spectacular landscape for example.
Also PG worlds often seem to get quite plain, there is really nothing to "wow" about.

In a game like Diablo, were the environment ain't as important, then it works fine, but in a game with a rich story, you need memorable places.

 

[Rob]

From the kickstarter pitch video, Madoc said: "like everything else, our terrain can be edited interactively with simple tools. We can do anything from procedurally generating a large land mass to fine detail work. It's quick and easy, and no special skills are required. As you sculpt the basic shape, the system works in the background, to build detailed rocks, stones, vegetation, etc. And you can then also modify these things by hand".

I think it's been very clear from the beginning that SG was never going to be a procedurally-generated game that allowed users to generate a new map by providing a seed.

The intention behind "procedurally generating a large land mass" is so that it's quick and easy for the devs to create the game world. The reason Madoc told us about that was to demonstrate that they already had fantastic tools in place that would allow them to meet their objectives, i.e. make Sui Generis in a reasonable amount of time.

Of course, "procedurally generating a large land mass" is very different to ending up with a rich and immersive game world. That's why Madoc ensures to include the phrases: "fine detail work", "as you sculpt the basic shape" and "modify these things by hand". Madoc was basically advertising the engine, saying that once other people get their hands on it they will be able to do great things with it very easily.

My understanding is that BM will be able to very easily procedurally generate the husk of a (potentially very large) map without having to manually build it. This means that they might be able to easily release additional maps in future after game release, and allow modders to create new maps to their heart's content. However, I really wouldn't expect a "generate new map" button in the options menu. If that were the case, then it likely would have completely changed the main selling point, completely changed the focus, purpose and vision of Sui Generis... and it would have been a much shallower game, and ultimately worse for it.

That said, I've got no problem with a "generate new map" button in the options menu for the people that really want that, so long as those people don't expect anything more than random enemies floating around on a random land mass, with no purpose, objectives or story.

Procedurally generated worlds are great in other contexts, but right now that's not going to be possible for an RPG as rich as Sui Generis. Sure, procedurally generated worlds can be great for space, hack 'n' slash, simulation and RTS games... e.g. Limit Theory, Path of Exile, Torchlight, to name a few recent examples... although perhaps RimWorld is the most innovative example of something along these sort of lines that I've seen recently, despite not featuring procedural generation in the conventional sense.

But procedural generation is just not right for a decent story-rich RPG that promises to be as awesome as Sui Generis. Not yet.

 

[Rob]

So why did I make this thread? Well, Sui Generis has the chance to be a game changer. With dynamic AI that have there own motivations, and a lack of scripted quests, the resulting stories and paths the game can take are almost like guided randomly generated ones. If I understand the proposed AI correctly, the main villain in the game likely has an evil motivation, and his starting conditions are favourable to allow him to pursue his ambitions. Whether he succeeds or not is determined by the player.

So, if the game does in fact operate like this, could it not be entirely randomly generated (in story, I mean). You could take the same map and world and all the same items, but make the characters motivations and their personalities random. This would create a new storyline, provided you kept a decent balance of evil doers and people trying to stop them.

Going back to Fluffy's original line of thought, I remember we talked about similar things a while back (almost a year ago - crazy!):
http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/my-hope-and-dreams.121/page-2#post-2922

It would be nice to know what BM have got up their sleeve regarding AI, character personalities and stochasticity, but I guess we'll have to wait for now...

 

[BrecMadak]

I see your point @Rob but what about to improve the replayability, and not lessen it with limiting decisions while its feasibility is not even laborsome ? I don't get that anxiety in regard to not having a rich world unless handcrafted sounds unrealistic to me honestly. You won't see absurd moments like finding a tree on top of rocks since the technology at their hands is advanced already ! This is just a simple example, I could even go beyond this and would want to discuss quest randomization (which was done in Diablo I eventhough was made basically, it made its point rather well) multi-dimensionally implemented ! (Which I'd tried to describe more detailed in here for some time ago.)

So what I think this is already a benefical feature that waits to be used; its not just the place of a tree how far spawned to you etc.

Memorable places are obligatory and probably will exist, but what I'm sure without any procedural generation its "more likely" that game's longevity will be run out much earlier than expected due to seeing everything in static places throughout every game would be felt dull and flat in time, despite SG's revolutionary features gonna stun us like no other.

It's like watching your favourite movie over and over, the movie is same albeit with each seeing you may discover new things but after discovering everything it would make no sense to you and now would start to bore you. Maybe not a a good example but since I'm a movie freak this came to my mind, so bear with me...

 

[Komuflage]

I see your point but what about to improve the replayability, and not lessen it with limiting decisions while its feasibility is not even laborsome ? I don't get that anxiety in regard to not having a rich world unless handcrafted sounds unrealistic to me honestly. There won't be stupid moments like finding a tree on top of rocks since the technology at their hands is advanced already ! This is just a simple example, I could even go beyond this and would want to discuss quest randomization (which was done in Diablo I eventhough was made basically, it made its point rather well) multi-dimensionally implemented ! So what I think this is already a benefical feature that waits to be used; its not just the place of a tree how far spawned to you etc.

Memorable places are obligatory and probably will exist, but what I'm sure without any procedural generation its "more likely" that game's longevity will be run out much earlier than expected due to seeing everything in static places throughout every game would be felt dull and flat in time, despite SG's revolutionary features gonna stun us like no other.

It's like watching your favourite movie over and over, the movie is same but with each seeing you may discover new things but after discovering everything it would make no sense to you and would start to bore you. Maybe not a a good example but since I'm a movie freak this came to my mind, so bear with me...

I honestly don't believe you can get fun, engaging and deep quest if they're randomized, I just see a glorified, Collect X Y or Walk from A to B.

Personally I think the world feel flat and dull when it's Procedural generated, since it all look the same. It kinda ruin the replayability for me, rather than enhance it. It fell so pointless trying to discover everything, when you know you'll never see it again.

 

[BrecMadak]

I honestly don't believe you can get fun, engaging and deep quest if they're randomized, I just see a glorified, Collect X Y or Walk from A to B.

Personally I think the world feel flat and dull when it's Procedural generated, since it all look the same. It kinda ruin the replayability for me, rather than enhance it. It fell so pointless trying to discover everything, when you know you'll never see it again.

You got to drop your prejudgement firstly to understand what I'm saying in the first place. How come you are so certain that you gonna feel flat and dull as if you have played the game already. It makes no sense.

And about your last sentence, I didn't get what you are trying to say but as far as what I understand, you already start to discover new things by procedural generation, without it you can't ever discover already discovered. Discovery is viable only for new things, and not their 2nd times.