The game looks great! The combat actually looks somewhat convincing. I had a thought that I think would perhaps improve combat slightly. That would be the ability to "train" techniques. For example: the player could have the ability to preset a combat response on a number of keys (1-9?). So say I want my character to step forward to the right, thrust, turn and slash, I can program a key to do this. This way, I can create more complex responses that can be used in combat, as I get more comfortable with the game. this would not come without cost though, because if something does not proceed according to plan, you can end up in a bad place. This would be very similar the way soldiers have trained for centuries to prepare for combat. It would also create a more intellectual aspect to combat as apposed to hack and slash. Great job so far and I can't wait to play!
Combat Thoughts
- Thread starter Sonyex
- Start date
Parco
Moderator
I think this wouldnt be such a good idea as i believe this would ruin the fluidness of the combat, this would also ruin a bit of the fun of the combat as it wasnt you yourself that killed the enemy with your own fighting skills.
But this could be fun having as a mod, making crazy combos and unleashing them with a single button, we discussed something similar a while back (link)
But this could be fun having as a mod, making crazy combos and unleashing them with a single button, we discussed something similar a while back (link)
Rob
Moderator
And here, a long while back:
http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/macro-based-combat.128/
At this stage, I'm looking forward to actually trying the combat out in the alpha - it's quite hard to say whether allowing combat macros would be a good thing or not without having hands-on experience of the combat system.
http://www.baremettle.com/sg/forums/index.php?threads/macro-based-combat.128/
At this stage, I'm looking forward to actually trying the combat out in the alpha - it's quite hard to say whether allowing combat macros would be a good thing or not without having hands-on experience of the combat system.
tiny lampe
Insider
Considering that a big part of what makes combat skillful in Sui Generis is precisely the ability to coordinate turns and steps with attack animations, I'd say that automatizing this process would make the combat less enjoyable.
The funny thing is that this suggestion was proposed to 'créate a more intellectual aspect to combat as opposed to hack and slash'. This suggests that combat in Sui Generis is still very misunderstood. It's VERY far from hack and slash but apparently videos have a hard time communicating that. Conclusion: people need to test the alpha ASAP to see how engaging the combat system really is.
The funny thing is that this suggestion was proposed to 'créate a more intellectual aspect to combat as opposed to hack and slash'. This suggests that combat in Sui Generis is still very misunderstood. It's VERY far from hack and slash but apparently videos have a hard time communicating that. Conclusion: people need to test the alpha ASAP to see how engaging the combat system really is.
I don't think combat is misunderstood at all. While SG is will definitely not be a mindless "hack at your enemies as if they are a wooden pole" or even a more complex "block with one button/attack with the other" it can still have a tedious tendency that "hack and slash" would have.Considering that a big part of what makes combat skillful in Sui Generis is precisely the ability to coordinate turns and steps with attack animations, I'd say that automatizing this process would make the combat less enjoyable.
The funny thing is that this suggestion was proposed to 'créate a more intellectual aspect to combat as opposed to hack and slash'. This suggests that combat in Sui Generis is still very misunderstood. It's VERY far from hack and slash but apparently videos have a hard time communicating that. Conclusion: people need to test the alpha ASAP to see how engaging the combat system really is.
The game combat system looks wonderful, far superior to anything I've seen before, but it might be improved if you had the ability, as a player, to "program/train" a combo. Maybe take away some of the inevitable tedium. This might also allow for more complex combat and planning.
Another potential this would create would be group tactics, i.e. a shield wall or the like.
It would obviously be critical that this be implemented in a way that would be congruent with the style and theme we've seen so far. If you start a preset combo but miscalculate and get interrupted, perhaps there would be a penalty "stun factor".
Ultimately, I agree with Rob, lets see the alpha and take it from there. All this should be relatively simple to adapt if necessary.
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Komuflage
Insider
Frankly I don't really see the point of a combo; using your example above.
"So say I want my character to step forward to the right, thrust, turn and slash"
That would simply be, W-D - LMB - Rotate with mouse, LMB.
A combo would just lock you into a predetermined manoeuvre, which can be tedious if you miss the thrust, and then have to do the slash as well.
And I kind of think it just remove some of the skill if I can make a serie of button presses and mouse moments, into a single button
Rob
Moderator
You're quite right. I do definitely agree that there's no point being able to press a button that executes a series of moves that you could have done equally-well manually.
However, I've always had in mind that macros might become relevant in order to enable things that *can't* be done using the default system (i.e. can't be done using a series of simple button presses and mouse movements). A couple of such scenarios:
(1) unlockable special moves - assign move to a key;
(2) combining moves for simultaneous execution, e.g. thaumaturgical powers. Providing the char has attained the skill to combine such powers.
(3) fluid combos. Speculatively, it could be that there is a certain amount of delay/detachment between moves when you have to execute them manually. However, telling the engine that you will be performing 2 moves one directly after the other could enable the engine to do something clever, resulting in a more fluid thus deadly manoeuvre that would not have been possible manually. Speculatively, this could be as simple as a shift in footing at the end of the first move in order to optimise starting position for the second move, resulting in a naturally quicker and more powerful second attack...
I'm sure there are other scenarios. I don't know whether such ideas would be good or bad in practice. But I do think it's valid to consider such key bindings / macros / combos / whatever you want to call it. Just looking at the 3 points I've listed above, I can see that such things could have the potential to add a whole other layer to the combat system, giving it even more depth and thus longevity. But I could be wrong.
Exactly, it wouldn't necessarily create anything new but it would allow you to "shortcut" your favorite techniques at the cost of the chance of being interrupted. Aside for that it would allow you to perfect moves in a way that would be difficult to replicate consistently. The little combat we've seen looks quite difficult, and while it's all good and exciting now, I can see it getting very frustrating after the 1029th time you are facing a skeleton.
Additionally, there has been some footage of AI follower/s, instead of just having the AI fight as it best sees fit, or the traditional "dumb" commands, you would be able to train more sophisticated maneuvers.
Lastly, and best of all, you wouldn't have to use it! You wouldn't be creating any stupid animations that take away from the players control of the game. Instead it would allow players to customize their experience to their style.
Madoc
Project Lead
The controls are much more analogue feeling than you might think, your character is interacting with physical forces and subject to dynamic animations, you need to make constant adjustments. Pressing a key won't always do the same thing, you need to be constantly aware of what your character is doing to control them. Something like this would be equivalent to driving a car with macros, turn steering like so, apply this much gas etc. and then expect to be able to go round any corner by pressing a button. Not going to work.
It seems impossible to describe what makes the combat so engaging, it's just always intense and amusing. There will be plenty to do besides swinging weapons at people but it's hard to imagine it ever getting boring.
It seems impossible to describe what makes the combat so engaging, it's just always intense and amusing. There will be plenty to do besides swinging weapons at people but it's hard to imagine it ever getting boring.
Komuflage
Insider
But then it would just make combat easier, and removing some of the complexity, rather than ad to it?
Also as @Rob mentions in point 3) The idea of more fluid combat.
If it would be so, wouldn't that kind of ruin the point of "You wouldn't have to use it!"?
Example: I could create small double swing/slash macro. (Swing from right to left, then left to right) If this would go faster than me manually doing it, and I know that after a certain enemy does a certain attack, I've got the time to do a double swing/slash, then I would cripple myself by not using the macro.
Personally I don't like the idea, but if the devs fell they think it would be viable, and that you wouldn't be sub par by not using it, then, why not, no harm done.
You guys have done a awesome job so far as I can tell so I will not challenge or argue with you, especially before trying the game. That would just be silly. I'm not worried about the game being boring, it looks light-years ahead of any alpha I've tried, and more advanced and fluid than any other released or announced. But something to keep in mind is how tedious basic combat might become after the 300th hour of gameplay. There is a limit to the "muscle memory" you can teach your fingers.
All said, can't wait to try it out!
Pancakez54
Insider
Edit: Nothing was ever here.
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XxBoDxX
Insider
You haven't even played one minute and you're already thinking about how boring its gonna be for you at your 300th hour? I don't know about you but any game that I play for 300 hours in doesn't get boring to me. (That's why you'd be in your 300th hour) I seriously doubt there's a limit to your muscle memory. Your brain pretty much has a limitless capacity for such things man you won't ever run out of shit to learn or teach yourself to do. Especially in this game.
Octo
Insider
I didn't know where to post this and I don't think it deserves it's own thread so here goes.
Am I alone in thinking that the long two-handed weapons (long hammer, halberd) swings much slower from the left compared to a right swing? It's very annoying and it's hard to get any force into the left swings.
I'm talking about the combat demo of course since those weapons aren't available in Exanima.
Am I alone in thinking that the long two-handed weapons (long hammer, halberd) swings much slower from the left compared to a right swing? It's very annoying and it's hard to get any force into the left swings.
I'm talking about the combat demo of course since those weapons aren't available in Exanima.
burgzaza
Insider
There are several long two handed weapons in Exanima ( mauls, axes, swords, polearms/hallberds ). In my experience, yeah, left>right swings aren't slower, but take a bit longer to aim. And I feel these wings mutch more powerful than the right>left ones. Maybe it's just me, but it's mostly with thee alternate swing that I do the fastest ( after aiming ) and deadliest moves.
ZaratanCho
Insider
I don't think it is slower, but something does feel a little off.
Still works well usually.
Still works well usually.
Erian
Insider
Gone trough the dungeon without any actual fight occuring, the mobs did try to reach, but, doors
That way, with some waiting (for it to work right, locate small rooms, open door, let them get in (check before that if they stop in front of that door, of course), close said door.
rinse + repeat, guess level is completed alright.
Here = spoiler, even if minimal I guess, be warned
That way, with some waiting (for it to work right, locate small rooms, open door, let them get in (check before that if they stop in front of that door, of course), close said door.
rinse + repeat, guess level is completed alright.
Here = spoiler, even if minimal I guess, be warned
So, Exanima, single level dungeon it is ?
No dual wielding ?
(not that bad, as I play mage more than actual melee, wondering how magic will be handled given melee combat that said).
No dual wielding ?
(not that bad, as I play mage more than actual melee, wondering how magic will be handled given melee combat that said).
Blodetsprutar
Insider
To me it seems very unlikely that creating macros would benefit at all to this game, the more complex this macro is the more likely it will fail at that specific moment, and simpler the macro is the more unnecessary it is to assign a macro too it in the first place because you could easily do it yourself. In the extremes: You dont need to assign a macro to a left right swing because you can just hold the button for 1 second longer and be in exact control, you dont need to assign a macro to a "left>left>up>left attack taunt>right attack>left>attack>step back" macro, the ai and circumstances and physics makes use of long combos probably very unlikely. Its almost like chaos, a small change in initial condition produce exponential growth of uncertainty, and assigning a complex macro and thinking it will produce consistent results in any situation seems wrong, considering the timing, stepping and wogglyness of physics will abrupt any centimetrical precision you would had if you just act by skill in the moment.?
I thing adding thrust will change combat a lot, especially for one handed swords (daggers?).
Macro based combat looks interesting on paper and probably cool without enemies, but after experimenting with combat I have to say it would be very hard to implement properly, plus I cant say that it would affect immerse positively.
I am already bit spoiled with OP left-to-right swing with well timed forward-right dash (plus crouch midstrike if you aiming for knees), it became my "I win" strategy. If such thing will be possible by one key macro game will lose much.
Macro based combat looks interesting on paper and probably cool without enemies, but after experimenting with combat I have to say it would be very hard to implement properly, plus I cant say that it would affect immerse positively.
I am already bit spoiled with OP left-to-right swing with well timed forward-right dash (plus crouch midstrike if you aiming for knees), it became my "I win" strategy. If such thing will be possible by one key macro game will lose much.
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