Concerning Combat Recovery

[Smileyface97]

After watching all of the videos, and understanding that animations and many other things are placeholders and/or incomplete, I found myself curious about one thing in particular; the recovery. When the characters get knocked down, they fall into a ragdoll (sort of) effect and then immediately try to stand up, even if they’re about to be struck again. This looks rather stressful to play as being knocked down basically forces you to try and stand vertically. What I’m curious about, is if there are any plans to implement a fallen movement system; if not may I take this time to suggest it. To make an example, perhaps the player character would roll using “A” and “D” and crawl for the “W” and “S” keys. Now seeing how the animations will need to be fluid, these mappings and actions would probably need to be dynamic based on how the player has fallen. This would do a lot for the immersion and tension of combat.

So what does anybody think, and do the developers want to weigh in?


Thanks for your time!

 

[Komuflage]

I think this has been mentioned a little bit before, but it's worth discussing. (unless we've already been given an official answer, in which case this post will be pointless )
I don't see any point in crawling, since by the time you actually managed to get just 1meter/3foot way, the enemy will be able to take another swing at you.

However rolling is definitely something I would like to see included. Since I'm quite sure some people will just stunlock (in this case knockdown-lock) you otherwise, and nothing is more tedious than seing your character helplessly get stuned over and over and over, without you being able to do anything.

However, trying to roll in heavy armour should be quite cumbersome and most likely it will just but you at a worse disadvantage, since perhaps the enemy can take another swing at you while you're rolling.

However, I'm imagining that if you got a rouge-like character with light armour, you would be able to roll quite some distance and get up on your feat fast.
Hence if a knight take a swing at you once you're knocked down, you could roll away, hence the knight hit the ground, and before he can recover, you're up on your feat kicking him down on the ground.

 

[tiny lampe]

I'm one of those who is not fond of the idea of rolling as seen in games like Dark Souls (DS) . In fact, it only works in DS because 1) rolling has invencibility frames and 2) physics are very forgiving (you can for example chain a couple of backward rolls in order to climb some stairs without losing your balance in the process). Sui Generis will not feature invencibility frames and, as for physics, everybody saw what happens if you bump into a chair while running. So if rolling was to be implemented, I'm afraid it would be either useless or highly unreliable and infuriating.

While I don't think that rolling as in 'dodging by throwing yourself to the ground' would work, things are pretty different if you are already on the ground because you've been knocked down. If you get knocked down, and as SmileyFace pointed, immediately raising up may not always be the best option. If your opponent is a big ogre (hard-hitter but slow) perhaps you want to roll left or right to create some distance before you actually attempt to stand up. If your opponent is human-sized (and therefore quicker than an ogre) perhaps you would like to perform some quick attack from the ground like a kick or a thaumaturgic force push to give you enough time to stand up. So, to reitierate, if being knocked down is a relatively easy occurance, I do think that ground fighting maneuvers would be a good thing to include. Of course adding animations is not easy in Sui Generis so things like rolling left/right when on the ground may be complicating and time-consuming to pull off. If anything, the ability to use thamaturgy fom the ground could perhaps be easier and already a valid way out from getting stun-knocked-down.

 

[Smileyface97]

I think this has been mentioned a little bit before, but it's worth discussing. (unless we've already been given an official answer, in which case this post will be pointless )
I don't see any point in crawling, since by the time you actually managed to get just 1meter/3foot way, the enemy will be able to take another swing at you.

However rolling is definitely something I would like to see included. Since I'm quite sure some people will just stunlock (in this case knockdown-lock) you otherwise, and nothing is more tedious than seing your character helplessly get stuned over and over and over, without you being able to do anything.

However, trying to roll in heavy armour should be quite cumbersome and most likely it will just but you at a worse disadvantage, since perhaps the enemy can take another swing at you while you're rolling.

However, I'm imagining that if you got a rouge-like character with light armour, you would be able to roll quite some distance and get up on your feat fast.
Hence if a knight take a swing at you once you're knocked down, you could roll away, hence the knight hit the ground, and before he can recover, you're up on your feat kicking him down on the ground.

I don't know, I think that crawling may be more useful than that. For example if a large slow enemy knocks you down, then proceeds to attack again, the immediate standing action is only going to proceed to (as you mentioned) knock you down again. When crawling I'm not talking about hands and knees, more so, a sliding on your back. Where the character is pulling with his arms and pushing with his legs so as to desperately get out of the way when getting attacked. I do see how this could be hard pressed to help, particularly for the quicker enemies and slower characters but there could be ways to fix that. Consider if on the ground you could defend (not attack) allowing you more chance to find an opening to stand. Not only would this prevent stun-lock, but add a potent amount of urgency to the act of standing up, rather than just praying you don't get knocked down again.

I most definitely agree that these movements would be limited by armour and physical ability, but the option would be great for rouge types and would make getting knocked down a second time based more on skill than before.

 

[Smileyface97]

I'm one of those who is not fond of the idea of rolling as seen in games like Dark Souls (DS) . In fact, it only works in DS because 1) rolling has invencibility frames and 2) physics are very forgiving (you can for example chain a couple of backward rolls in order to climb some stairs without losing your balance in the process). Sui Generis will not feature invencibility frames and, as for physics, everybody saw what happens if you bump into a chair while running. So if rolling was to be implemented, I'm afraid it would be either useless or highly unreliable and infuriating.

While I don't think that rolling as in 'dodging by throwing yourself to the ground' would work, things are pretty different if you are already on the ground because you've been knocked down. If you get knocked down, and as SmileyFace pointed, immediately raising up may not always be the best option. If your opponent is a big ogre (hard-hitter but slow) perhaps you want to roll left or right to create some distance before you actually attempt to stand up. If your opponent is human-sized (and therefore quicker than an ogre) perhaps you would like to perform some quick attack from the ground like a kick or a thaumaturgic force push to give you enough time to stand up. So, to reitierate, if being knocked down is a relatively easy occurance, I do think that ground fighting maneuvers would be a good thing to include. Of course adding animations is not easy in Sui Generis so things like rolling left/right when on the ground may be complicating and time-consuming to pull off. If anything, the ability to use thamaturgy fom the ground could perhaps be easier and already a valid way out from getting stun-knocked-down.

Just to verify, I am only talking about the knocked down combat you discuss in your second paragraph and not when already standing. I agree that rolling around the field a-la Legend of Zelda or Dark Souls would be a little off in this game.

The idea of ground attacks is really interesting, however I'd think it would be severely limited, as swinging with your sword would have next to no force behind it. Thamaturgy should work, but I'd hope that it would also be limited based on your fallen position, perhaps the aim would be off or something to that sort.

I do agree that this could be difficult to program, but I think the mechanic would dramatically improve the otherwise stunned stance of falling. In dark souls I always hated watching my character slowly stand up while I sat back in my chair knowing there was nothing I could do, as an enemy's spear drove him through. This mechanic could prevent that annoyance and severely increase the sense of immersion in the character of this RPG.

 

[Smileyface97]

All I really want from the above suggestion is a since of skill and urgency to come into the otherwise stunned and set stance of falling down. I want to feel like I'm in control of my character. Instead of yelling at her for staggering to her feat while a sword is already half way to her neck, I want to tell her to raise her shield or at least to avoid an obvious attack. As mentioned in my reply to Tiny Lampe one of my greatest stresses in dark souls was watching my character die because he just stood up slowly even though rolling could have saved him. It wasn't fun and unlike most deaths in dark souls, I couldn't comprehend how it was my fault.