Exanima Feedback

[Abyss_Walker]

Hi,

Hoping this reaches some of the Bare Mettle devs. Been a backer since 2012 kickstarter, so really pleased to finally get my hands on the game. Just some initial feedback/thoughts I have from my play time so far (I'll update as I play more):

Pros
- Physics driven unpredictability: A rogue swing of an axe hitting a door, causing it to slam shut? Love it - very organic.
- Lighting, atmosphere, sense of dread are great. The game is hard and that's great. You genuinely feel apprehensive when easing open a door for fear of what's inside.
- I was skeptical about the idea of picking up items by clicking and dragging with the mouse, but seems to work well. Like all parts of the game, the inventory feels organic. Kudos for trying something different there.
- I love that weapons/armour are given very vague ratings and that potentially any item can be useful in the right hands. Nothing worse in RPG games than everyone ending up with the same "super weapon" - so boring. Nice that you've bucked that trend.

Cons
- Animations are unconvincing. This is the biggest issue for me at the moment. The character moves more like a marionette than a person, as if they're on an elastic band attached to the "ceiling". Additionally, I love how physics driven the game is, but at the same time I shouldn't trip/stumble over every little thing I walk over/past - maybe tone it down a bit unless you're running full pelt? Managed to get the characters feet stuck in the wall a few times too, leaving me unable to move in the arena.
- Lack of moves in combat. Need more variety in the techniques used. Games like Chivalry did a great job on this, giving you overhand, left, right and thrust options. It's frustrating that there are weapons which would clearly be better at dealing pierce damage, but there is no thrust option to utilise. As many other people seem to have suggested, kicks/shoulder barges etc. would be effective techniques too.
- Encountered a glitch whereby on loading the game, I chose arena. On the character creation screen, no hair options were shown in the RHS scroll view, just one empty square. When navigated to the equipment screen, no weapons or armour were shown in either the right or left panel. When I chose "next" and went into combat, my character started with a morning star/mace (non-spiked one). No red cursor was shown when in combat. Quitting the game and re-launching restored things to normal.
- Multiple control schemes. About 50% of the time, I can't get my head around which direction to press to move my character. I guess my brain isn't wired too well to control the character movement relative to *his* position rather than the camera's. For dopes like me, it would be great if you could have 2 control schemes - 1 relative to the camera and 1 relative to the player.
- One very minor, but annoying thing - add a "Resume" button to the in-game menu. So many times, I've pressed "exit", thinking that will take me back to the game and it kicks me out to the main menu
- An option to turn 180 degrees quickly would be welcome. Feels a bit clunky when trying to turn outside of combat mode.

 

[Murf]

Out of combat mode use RMB and hold in the direction you want to go, if you are turned the other way, you turn right around and go in that direction. Not very clunky.

 

[Downstairs Eddie]

Just to clarify, there are already left, right, and overhead swings (double-click to do an overhead), and thrusts will come in the future. Remember you can combine your swings with your character's momentum and the cursor position for extra force too, so there's more complexity there than you find in other games where swings are always the same.

 

[ShaolinG]

"For dopes like me, it would be great if you could have 2 control schemes - 1 relative to the camera and 1 relative to the player." - I hope devs will hear us

 

[nrage]

"For dopes like me, it would be great if you could have 2 control schemes - 1 relative to the camera and 1 relative to the player." - I hope devs will hear us

You realise that the character faces the cursor, right? So, lets imagine you want to strafe around an enemy. With the current system you keep the cursor on the enemy, and tap either A or D, and you will do a complete circle around them.

What you're suggesting instead is to do what? Press A, then W then D then S? Or, would you have to swap from A to D then D to A on either 'side'?

The huge downside to camera relative motion is that it only lets you move in a total of 4 directions.

Whereas character relative motion where the character always faces the cursor lets you have complete freedom of motion, you can strafe not only to the side, but also slightly toward or away from the enemy just by moving the cursor a little.

It is better in every measurable way.. except that it's not as immediately familiar to people, or easy to master. All it takes however is a bit of practice. I'll admit, after 2 hours practice I still press the wrong strafe key sometimes, but the benefits of the current system vastly out weigh this problem, which with practice will vanish entirely.

Don't take my word for it, watch someone who has been playing a while.

 

[ShaolinG]

You realise that the character faces the cursor, right? So, lets imagine you want to strafe around an enemy. With the current system you keep the cursor on the enemy, and tap either A or D, and you will do a complete circle around them.
What you're suggesting instead is to do what? Press A, then W then D then S? Or, would you have to swap from A to D then D to A on either 'side'?

Yes, it's more simple way. I think, why people are so conservative in this? When I saw gameplay on youtube, I don't even thought that it isn't like this. Also I don't understand why people are against this, if it will be just 2nd version of controls in options. Well, you know, for uninitiated people who don't understand this perversed pleasures.

 

[Madoc]

The reason why we're reluctant to add such an option is because you really won't be able to play properly with those controls and the game absolutely needs proper controls. It might even be easier when you've just started playing and against the easiest opponents but you will never learn and you will never be able to do the actually hard stuff that is in the game.

 

[tiny lampe]

The reason why we're reluctant to add such an option is because you really won't be able to play properly with those controls and the game absolutely needs proper controls. It might even be easier when you've just started playing and against the easiest opponents but you will never learn and you will never be able to do the actually hard stuff that is in the game.

I was wondering if it would be feasible to show, through a video, the limitations of the simplified control system that people are proposing. For example, you could show some of this advanced moves that are not possible with the simplified system but that can be done with the current one. Then you could explain why they wouldn't work with the simplified controls.

I have the impression that people need to see specific cases in order to be convinced. And I have the impression that this requests for simplified controls will pop up often enough to justify the time investment that creating such a video would require.

 

[Tony]

I was wondering if it would be feasible to show, through a video, the limitations of the simplified control system that people are proposing. For example, you could show some of this advanced moves that are not possible with the simplified system but that can be done with the current one. Then you could explain why they wouldn't work with the simplified controls.

I have the impression that people need to see specific cases in order to be convinced. And I have the impression that this requests for simplified controls will pop up often enough to justify the time investment that creating such a video would require.

I like this idea but I'm thinking it would be hard to do without spoiling the difficult content (new monsters/creatures/multiple opponents, end-game content like powerful thaumaturges, etc.) since in these situations the precise control would be of utmost importance. EDIT: I suppose a reasonable way to do it would be to add a bunch of intelligent opponents into a room with objects scattered about and attempt to fight them all simultaneously while also navigating around the clutter.

Even if they did clearly demonstrate it people could still argue that the devs "just weren't trying very hard in order to do poorly on purpose" or "they just got lucky when using the more precise control scheme" etc.

 

[ShaolinG]

Ok, guys, you convince me. Now I'm just waiting checkpoint or save\load system and god help us.

 

[Faelivrin]

Ok, guys, you convince me. Now I'm just waiting checkpoint or save\load system and god help us.

Does a single checkpoint works for you? because otherwise i fear you will beat another dead horse ^^'

 

[Downstairs Eddie]

It shouldn't be that hard to understand the issues with the camera.

The character can face in any direction, so let's say you're facing 102 degrees from the top of the screen. If you press A to move left, you move at an angle of 12 degrees (or close to it). If controls were relative to the screen, there's simply no way you could move at 12 degrees. It couldn't be done. You could move at 0 degrees, or 90 degrees, maybe 45 degrees with W+D, but to move in that 12 degree direction, you'd have to shuffle with W+D+W+D+W+D.

Like nrage said, the combination of WASD and the character turning to face the cursor means you can move in any direction you want. If you make movement relative to the screen, you totally override that fine control.

 

[Pilluminati]

To be fair, all the movements would still be possible with the camera relative movement, you'd just have to be rotating the camera like a maniac to be able to do the same things.

 

[Tony]

To be fair, all the movements would still be possible with the camera relative movement, you'd just have to be rotating the camera like a maniac to be able to do the same things.

Which would definitely negatively impact gameplay and make combat nearly unplayable (as I'm sure you're aware of already) . Imagine trying to rapidly adjust the camera, precisely move the mouse cursor to aim where you want while the camera is rotating, all while spamming the movement keys in an attempt to move at the intended angle before the enemy chops you in the face... sounds like a total nightmare haha.

 

[Pilluminati]

Which would definitely negatively impact gameplay and make combat nearly unplayable (as I'm sure you're aware of already) . Imagine trying to rapidly adjust the camera, precisely move the mouse cursor to aim where you want while the camera is rotating, all while spamming the movement keys in an attempt to move at the intended angle before the enemy chops you in the face... sounds like a total nightmare haha.

Yeah totally get that just sayin...

 

[Abyss_Walker]

@Madoc Thanks for chiming in, nice to hear a response from the big man himself Totally get everyone's points with the camera control - nice to see in depth discussion on it. I didn't really appreciate the fact that you'd only have 4 degrees of movement with a relative system - I get that now and can understand why this works the way it is. My worry is that the control scheme might be a bit of a blocker for some people to get into the game. Many people may be put off my reading lots of text & spending ~2hrs getting the hang of the control scheme. Perhaps an interactive tutorial might be better? I'd go back to Chivalry as a good example. I feel like the interactive tutorial at the start was a good addition for people to get a hang of the control scheme. Something to think about...

 

[Normalcey]

Hmmm... I've been watching the combat, and I feel that it could benefit from a fixed camera toggle, which would follow your characters movements. it would suck for narrow corridors, but in open areas it could alleviate some of the control issues people are having.

 

[Tony]

Hmmm... I've been watching the combat, and I feel that it could benefit from a fixed camera toggle, which would follow your characters movements. it would suck for narrow corridors, but in open areas it could alleviate some of the control issues people are having.

Already been discussed numerous times and explanations have been given why this wouldn't work well (by both the devs and the community).

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Already been discussed numerous times and explanations have been given why this wouldn't work well (by both the devs and the community).

Tony it's like they read our responses and their brain simply cannot register what we told them, everyday we all post the same things to the same and new people. I am on the forums almost all day hoping for new info but instead I'm having to read through the same thing. A new person comes with his miracle answer to the combat movement and camera "problems". There are no problems, you simply need to play the game differently! For Christ sake you pa for an I SOMETHING game. Bare mettle didn't deceive you, and they have done their tests to find the best choice of camera and controls for the game, what do you think alpha was for? This is beta!

Ignorant people with no concept of what game design pertains and just throwing their wants at Devs

 

[Tony]

@Anthony Obilor: I agree that it can be frustrating having to repeat the same thing non-stop; also when new threads are created to ask the same questions time and time again. However, even if I disagree with someone or become frustrated I try to not be rude or insult people simply because the general atmosphere and community on this forum is great . There are a lot of intelligent, friendly and fun people in this community and these forums are one of the few where I believe that being an active member is worth my time.

An influx of new members is to be expected when a game is first released, many of which have never heard of Exanima or Sui Generis before so everything is new to them. It would be nice if people would give the developers some credit, though, instead of just assuming that the devs have no idea what they're doing. Constructive criticism is great; suggesting things just for the sake of it without researching first is not so helpful since the devs have likely already thought about it, tested it, and moved 10 steps beyond.