Interaction and other things

[Psychomorph]

Hello,

your project intrigued me the first time I saw a screenshot. I'm not the only one saying that this is more how Diablo 3 should have looked like, but of course, there is more to Sui Generis than the looks.

I don't know what your vision for your game really is, but there have always been things I wanted to see in this kind of a game. This thread is not much of a suiggestion, but more of a food for thought thing.


I am honestly not big into RPG's, but the game that was influential for me as a gamer was Thief - The Dark Project. The level of interaction with the world was good in Thief and watching your great tech in the pitch video made me think of some features that would be unique.

Let's take the lighting. It looks realistic and thus also functional! What if you could hide in it? Let's say a skeleton in patrolling the dungeon, what if you keep standing in a deep dark corner and the creature would not see you? Stealth elements in an isometric RPG, now that's something.
In relation to the stealth argument and speaking about Thief earlier, one of my favorite features about Thief is the movement system - walking rather slowly (incl. creep) is not just a realistic feature, but a gameplay element, as you do not draw attention toward yourself, you are silent enough to hear everything and you do not run into traps that easily and generally make less mistakes. This I always wanted to see in an oldschool styled RPG, which often tend to be rather simplistic on the movement and interaction level. I'm not sure what would be the best way, I thought of an original Splinter Cell way of using the scroll wheel to accelerate and decelerate the characters pace. Or the further away from the character you move the pointer the faster he moves, but this might be tricky in some ways. I think you don't need more than three speeds in general.
WALK: Slow and silent. Can sneak past unaware characters, especially effective with the aid of shadows. Good way to explore dangerous places as you will likely not run into traps that easily. Walking may make distant characters not spot you from afar, because a faster moving person is more noticeable and obviously can be more louder to begin with.
JOG: The default movement that you already see in SG and in most RPG's. You can move relatively fast and constantly.
SPRINT: Slightly faster movement than the jog that can be used temporarily to escape danger or pass short distances quicker. Disadvantage may be that overusing it (total fatigue) may affect your combat efficiency. Heavy armored warriors may not be able to sprint, or shorter with more fatigue.
The walk pace would definitely be an interesting gameplay element, if the game is build around that feature.

The physics made me think of how nice it would be if you could push, pull, throw and kick things. Imagine the mechanics as such; You put the pointer on an object. If you can interact with it, the pointer will change into an appropriate icon. Clicking into the object and moving the pointer away from the character will make him push the object. Moving the pointer toward the character will make him pull it. The faster you move the pointer, the faster and careless the character interacts with the object. You can also pull chains and ropes like that.
To throw (small) things you click on an item and wait until the character picks it up, then you click somewhere and the character throws the object there, of course he throws it where you click.
To kick things you click on an object and make a fast swiping movement with the mouse, releasing the mouse button in the process. Making a swiping movement away from the character will make him kick things, moving the mouse toward the character could make him tear things down with force (where pulling doesn't have enough force). Imagine you have a broken door, you could kick it a couple of times until it falls off its hinges.

Hearing you say how the objects aren't just boxes, but are what they look like made me think of another thing I'd love to see in such a game, which is also my favorite feature in Thief - the climbing.
Imagine you put the pointer on a short wall or fence, the pointer changes into a "mantle" icon and you will mantle over the obstacle. Putting the pointer on a bed or table will let you see a "climb on" icon, and you can climb on the object.


This stuff would require the entire level design and opponents to be designed around this, it's complicated so I don't expect any of this to happen, but it is a nice and calming thought in any case.

However, I hope the Kickstarter will be a success for you and I cannot wait to test the Alpha. Good luck.

 

[Orisoll]

While I agree with you for the most part, I think the game should be less 'click-to-move' and instead focus on a fluid and open movement system(or at least an option for constant wsad movement). Nonetheless I love the idea of scalable environments because it opens up huge gameplay opportunities and would fit well with the highly dynamic world of SG.

 

[MrIdontKnow]

While I agree with you for the most part, I think the game should be less 'click-to-move' and instead focus on a fluid and open movement system(or at least an option for constant wsad movement). Nonetheless I love the idea of scalable environments because it opens up huge gameplay opportunities and would fit well with the highly dynamic world of SG.

It's different for many people, I used to love RuneScape, that was click to move and while it was great, you couldn't really get away from enemies fast enough or it would run back and forth.

 

[Tony]

I'm glad they have WASD keys to move in combat. Nothing would be worse than playing a game with real-time combat and trying to click all over the place to move your character while at the same time attempting to aim your attacks. Would be rather silly!

 

[Psychomorph]

I agree, I usually dislike too much mouse clicking.
So I read all of the developer posts on this forum and with the last combat video I have a better picture of how things are supposed to work in SG now. Basically you hold the left mouse button (LMB) to perform rows of attacks and use the right mouse button (RMB) to perform thaumaturgic actions. Block is performed automatically as a response to enemy attacks. I like all that.
Movement is done with the WASD keys and while as a 1st person gamer I agree with that, I see a bit of a problem there. You can turn the character in any direction by using the mouse pointer, so if you make him face the screen bottom, you still press W to move him forward and it gets tricky if you want to side strafe, because to make him strafe to his left, which is the right screen corner from your view, you need to use the A key (left direction). It's not even like you always have reversed controls like that, but only if you make him facing south. I know this is not going to work for me and I am not going to get used to it, many others will not either.

I consider myself a console and gamepad hater, but this is the only time I admit, that the analogue thumb-stick would be much better for this, as you could make the character move in any direction regardless of where you make him look to. You could technically do the same thing with the
WASD keys, but you'd be limited to only eight directions (you can move diagonally by pressing the W and A keys for example), which is very limiting. A thumb-stick is not an option though, so I think there needs to be a better way to do this on the keyboard.


*Edit* That's one hell of a text wall below. I'm not sure why I am doing this, it is probably because I sincerely would like to see these features in such a game and if you wont do this, likely nobody else will, because it seems you understand realism. I know it is not at all about realism for you, but realism is a great path to immersion. There is little immersion in moving through the world like a wooden log, but if you can push, pull, climb, hide, sprint and jump than you feel physically connected to the world and a high level of interaction makes for a good experience. At least I feel like that.


So I gave the interaction subject some more thought and based on the new information I made some adjustments.
I took the freedom to use a SG screenshot for an example (See end of post).

The idea is that you can click, double-click and drag & drop. What action is performed depends on where and on what you click.


1) The dot (green, within the green area, which is not visible) marks the direct priximity around the character, which basically indicates that you are in range to physically manipulate objects (pick things up, operate leavers, etc) by using the left mouse button (LMB).

SINGLE-CLICK: Buttons would be activated by single-clicking, picking things up would also be done by single-clicking, and throwing them would be done by moving the pointer where you want to throw it to and single-click once more. Additionally, you could click on an object to pick it up, hold the LMB and move the pointer to where you want it to be thrown and release the LMB to throw. That would be a faster and less clicky way to do the same thing.

DRAG&DROP: I still like the idea to drag & drop movable things with the mouse. To pull chains/ropes, or to pull/push leavers and similar objects, and maybe even open close doors/windows you would need to hold the LMB and move the mouse. To pull or push heavier objects you would do the same, but to keep them pulling/pushing continually, you would need to start moving and this is where you can release the LMB and merely use the pointer to keep the direction.

DOUBLE-CLICK: The double-click is the realm of physical actions and interaction. Double-click on a larger object will make you climb on top of it (to get off it you need to just move). If the obstacle is too thin to stand on (fence, tiny plank) you climb over it (not yet mantling at this point).
You can also double-click on a chain and hang on it to climb up or down, maybe even to swing across a gap.

We are talking about the green area of course, so to do all that you need to be in range. It looks like over complicated, but I think it a more intuitive way to do things which also gives you a variety of ways to manipulate things and will at the end be the easiest way to do things. The simpler and more common things would be done by a single-click, grabbing and moving things would be done just like that, but grabbing it with the pointer and moving the mouse, that way you would also move the things into the direction you want to. Double-click would perform rather rare and advanced physical actions and since chances are small to accidentally double-click, you would not unwillingly throw yourself off a balcony. In short, the double-click is a more conscious action, which it needs to be in relation to what it does.


2) If you move the pointer further away into the red area, the pointer changes into a small arrow, the red area. This is the jumping/mantling/rolling/dodging area.

SINGLE-CLICK: Might not do anything, maybe work as a scouting/estimating feature to gather more information about things.

DRAG&DROP: No function.

DOUBLE-CLICK: Physical action and since we deal with distance here (red area) you would perform actions such as jumping over a gap, or mantling over an obstacle (to be precise, double-clicking on an obstacle within the green area would make you climb on or over it, moving back to gain some distance to the obstacle and have it in the red area and double-clicking on or behind it, would make the character take a short run up, just a few steps, and mantle over it like a boss).
What if you also could double-click near your character and would perform a dodge and roll maneuver?

The thing about the pointer to change to an arrow is that it serves as the characters estimation of his abilities. It means he can jump there, if you move the mouse further and the arrow changes back to a dot, it means it's too far and double clicking wont have any effect.
That also means that the red area is affected by your pace and condition. If you're tired, you know you can't jump far enough and the red area shrinks. Now you will never see the red area, but the pointer changes to the arrow only within it and you see that. Running and sprinting on the other hand will expand the red area slightly.


3) Ranged weapons. The area beyond the red area is too far for anything, but not ranged weapons. I have to say I like the generic way of holding the LMB to knock an arrow and draw the string, and release LMB to launch it works in many games. I'd like it to be the same way in SG. It is a realistic way which is effective, because you can draw the string while still moving the pointer on the target and if the target is moving you can lead it and launch the arrow precisely when you need it to be launched.
Spears and knives would works similarly. To throw a spear you do need to raise the arm and move it back, during that split second you can still adjust where to throw and eventually hold the spear that way to find the right moment (best results if you do it fast though).


4) One thing I always wanted to see is non lethal use of lethal weapons. Let's say you get in a fight with a drunken animation... I mean guy. He is armed so you need to defend yourself with your arms, but you need to end this to not be accidentally killed. You are not going to go boxing on him, but in the right moment you can smack him with the grip of your sword/dagger, or even beat him with the flat side of your swords blade. In case of a spear you don't need to stab him, but can just beat him up with the wooden stick, can also wipe him with a bow, or beat him with your shield.
Not sure how to do this, either by holding a special key, or you could single-click to do this while in turn hold the LMB to launch a row of lethal attacks as described in the combat video.


5) Thaumaturgy. Nice thing about it is that you don't need to ready it like a weapon, so even if you have your weapons deselected and use the LMB to interact with the world, the RMB can still be used to cast magic. Some magic need a little charge-up time, so you hold down the RMB, aim at target and unleash it. A bit like with the bows. Single-cllicking can give you an alternative, perhaps close range variation of the power.
Psychokinesis. Remember I was talking about green and red zone and being in range? With this skill you can perform the same interactions (single-click and drag&drop) as like within the green zone, only at any range. Moving heavy objects can still cause physical fatigue for you, while you were just standing in place. On a side note, I like magic that is more intimate. You do not just drink a blue liquor and do stuff, it affects your force and fatigues you, because it uses your very own life force, but you have to find ways to be able to handle it.


6) Something rather cosmetic. Thing about the sword is, you are not going to hold it up all the time, but will if dealing with an attacking enemy within a proximity. This could be reflected by the animation. You carry the sword low (relaxed), but if an armed enemy enters your "red area" the character automatically raises the sword and assumes a combat stance, only if you are facing the opponent. Most realistic.
*Edit* Watched the combat video again, the automatic combat stance is already there, thumbs up. The non combat stance could be a bit more relaxed though, I think. I know it's work in progress, but looks good already.


I probably forgot the second half of the wall of text already, so I make a cut here.
The picture that was promised:

 

[sunburnedpenguin]

Great ideas.

I'm definitely not normally an action gamer. How feasible/usable would holding shift or control or something while moving the mouse around (in a gesture type fashion) be for variable attack techniques (thrust, lunge, etc)?

 

[fluffydino2000]

It isn't unfeasible, it's just whether it'd be fun or not. With an isometric view, you would struggle to control the character effectively while fighting in such a manner. In a third-person game, that would work great, especially if the game used height in a limited fashion. This is because, if you are using an over the shoulder view, it is acceptable to use A/D to rotate left and right, respectively, so the mouse is free to be used in combat. Also, the angle of an isometric view makes the obvious gestures for things like over head swings counter-intuitive. It would mean to achieve such attacks, one would have to utilize the mouse wheel or another input, which still isn't intuitive. This method of gesture based combat works best with a 4-way attacking system, like M&B/WOTR, both are rather limited in this sense however, as neither allow for angled jabs or effective parrying. I would much prefer the use of a button to (Shift/CTRL) make a stronger attack where the character follows their weapon. For example, you would parry your enemy then thrust and step past your enemy, then attack again. This is more effective than a stab because that is essentially just a normal attack, this allows for more effective movement and attack stringing, but also allows for risk. If timed wrong, you'll be stepping into a poised dagger or swinging down into the floor to be followed by a mace.

 

[hredthel]

I would much prefer the use of a button to (Shift/CTRL) make a stronger attack where the character follows their weapon. For example, you would parry your enemy then thrust and step past your enemy, then attack again. This is more effective than a stab because that is essentially just a normal attack, this allows for more effective movement and attack stringing, but also allows for risk. If timed wrong, you'll be stepping into a poised dagger or swinging down into the floor to be followed by a mace.

In the combat video the Devs talk about the character automatically parrying, with the player controlling the attack timing, so I bet the 'strong attack' idea would be an awesome function. A forceful attack could be the death of your character or the only reason you survived. I love game aspects like that.

 

[Psychomorph]

We would also like to include double-tap behaviours for dodging.

You can move in 8 directions relative to the cursor with WASD and this is a huge component of combat already.

Okay, seems I did not read all the developer posts carefully. So double-click for dodging is something they look into. WASD is relative to the cursor indeed and as I feared the eight directions are limiting, but I guess there is no other way with a keyboard. Wont be that bad I guess.

6) Something rather cosmetic. Thing about the sword is, you are not going to hold it up all the time, but will if dealing with an attacking enemy within a proximity. This could be reflected by the animation. You carry the sword low (relaxed), but if an armed enemy enters your "red area" the character automatically raises the sword and assumes a combat stance, only if you are facing the opponent. Most realistic.
*Edit* Watched the combat video again, the automatic combat stance is already there, thumbs up. The non combat stance could be a bit more relaxed though, I think. I know it's work in progress, but looks good already.

Or better this way: Holding weapons in hands while no enemy is within view (screen) and the enemy is not seen by the character (behind wall), than the body posture is very relaxed. If an enemy appears and is visible to the character, the character assumes a more tense posture (like it is in SG), basically that means feet spread, knees and elbows slightly bent. If the enemy is visible and close within a specific proximity, the character takes the combat posture.
Combat posture means: An archer grabs an arrow and hold the bow ready to draw (kind of like this). A bastard sword will be grabbed with two hands and held in front of the body. A one hand sword will be just held a bit higher, ready to strike. A shield will be put in front of the body and the sword in the other hand kind of held higher and the tip pointed toward the enemy. A staff or spear will also be held with both hands and ready to use. Etc.

Great ideas.

I'm definitely not normally an action gamer. How feasible/usable would holding shift or control or something while moving the mouse around (in a gesture type fashion) be for variable attack techniques (thrust, lunge, etc)?

Why not? The problem I see is, that real sword fighting is quite fast and somewhat random looking, because the fighter has split seconds to decide how to attack, these things are quite hard to do in a game, or you end up with simplistic sword fighting like seen in many games.
Basically an automated system is what needs to be there, but the player should have control over movement and the timing. Personally I completely agree with what the developers have shown and told about combat in SG so far.
So I guess holding a key might be a good way to alter the general combat style, but probably less to make specific alternate strikes.

This video is interesting and by the end they go fast:

 

[Psychomorph]

This stuff would require the entire level design and opponents to be designed around this, it's complicated so I don't expect any of this to happen, but it is a nice and calming thought in any case.

So I've catched up and read all the developer comments on the Kickstarter begining with the first day of campaign. When I made the initial post in this thread, I was like trying to convey a certain idea of a game design, based on realism and natural orders (though I went not too much into detail, it was just about few mechanics), things I've always craved to have in games and I thought Sui Generis was a sophisticated idea, but probably just another RPG. I had no idea that Bare Mettle was way ahead of this, they already explained to have an interest in stealth mechanics right from the start (after someone asked for it) and some details that I saw in the pitch video looked to me like random byproducts coming from animations and such, but later I realized these were probably conscious mechanics.

When I read the developer comments on this forum I feel understood. I always wanted to make a game in a similar spirit, but I'm no game developer and will probably never be, so it's cool to see there are some folks actually doing this. I feel like I have not much to say now, I'll do my thing as always and express ideas whenever I have something relevant to say, but I think that you got it all figured out.

I've been playing the oldschool tactical shooters most of the time since I began PC gaming, because the first time I tried realistic features in a game, it blew my mind, because it was a thrill and the most immersive thing (immersion is a fashion word that became popular in the past years with the console game developers), but I also like fantasy and science fiction and realistic mechanics has been absent from these games way to often (even if they looked nice). Thief was kind of a bit of a revolution for me. A fantasy game with the same movement and interaction mechanics like the good old tactical games, but with totally crazy stuff like monsters, surealism and paganism, wow. On top of that it was a stealth game. The little details like leaning forward to look down railings to see if a guard is aproaching down below, to lean into a door to eavesdrop, to climb almost the way I did in real life as a kid and much more is just incredibly immersive.

So I guess I just want to say that I appreciate that you guys stepped up to do your thing in such a harsh environment like the gaming industry (now more than ever), but beware, you have a very bumpy road ahead of you. I hope you know what you got yourself involved into.

Anyway, this post has way to many "I's", which sucks, but lets move on...

 

[Psychomorph]

Ok regarding enchanted objects/items (never been much fan of these). I think about some variations and try to make it short:

Active Enchantment: The enchanted item possesses incorporated magical attributes (can be removed with magic only). In simple terms, it carries its own battery. The user doesn't need to be a Thaumaturge to use it. Even magic costs energy, which the item in question basically gathers from the environment/surrounding, including the user, but never in a way that it harms anything, which is also the limit of the item, because after much use it needs to regain its powers (recharging time). I hate to make it sound like technology, but it is for easier understanding.

Passive Enchantment: The enchanted item requires a Thaumaturge to use. Basically, the item has the potential innate, but it takes a Thaumaturge to fuel it. How powerful and extensive the effect of the enchantment is is only limited by the Thaumaturge's own ability. Sometimes the enchantment is limited though, so even the Thaumaturge cannot go beyond.
Danger of this enchantment style is that if it is very aggressive (black magic) it can suck the life out of the user and kill him/her (but you go down in a blast!)

Floating Enchantment (needs better term): Takes an experienced Thaumaturge. The Thaumaturge can enchant an item on the fly. An arrow for instance. You select this special enchantment ability, and the item/weapon to enchant. For example, you hold down the right mouse button to charge/enchant the arrow you are going to shoot, then you hold down the left mouse button to draw the bow and release it to launch the arrow. The arrow innates the potential of the enchantment and manifestates it on impact with any surface. You could make the arrow explode, or turn the target that you killed with it into dust. Or whatever you want/can.


Some stealth related thaumaturgy. I suggested to use telekinesis by grabbing any item as long as in view (screen and/or in view of the character) with the mouse cursor and let it float around. It would be awesome to have some deceptive abilities also. That means you select the ability and click in a distant opposing corner of the room you're in to produce some odd sound there. Might draw someone suspicious and go check it out allowing you to move. Advanced ability would allow you to create an illusion there (ghost or image of yourself). You need to hold the mouse button for the sound/ghost to prevail, releasing the mouse button will make them disappear. Holding the mouse button and moving the cursor would make the ghost or sound walk/move where you lead it to.
Infinite ways of gameplay.