Jumping, and the like

[Green]

Not sure if this has been answered, or even asked, but I couldn't find much through the search bar. I would just like to know, and discuss whether there is or even should be jumping in SG. I think jumping, and diving, could lead to some interesting combat mechanics. You could be running around a skeleton, with no available weapon and just tackle it. This could make it shatter, and you would have time to run while its rejoining itself. I just think it would be cool to see, but might be hard to implement. Jumping I can't see as being much of a problem, but diving is completely different, and way more contextual. You can't have space bar act as a diving mechanic and a jumping one, it just wouldn't work, unless heavily worked on so it would recognize which you meant to do. But you could use context to switch it to diving mode, as in during combat space bar would make you dive, but outside of combat it would make you jump. This could also be true for rolling, although I much prefer having a separate key for roll/dodge.

 

[Komuflage]

With Diving, do you mean diving in water or diving to the ground to avoid a hit?

Anyway, I definitely would like if jumping was included in the game, it's something I can live without, but it's always nice. Also, not being able to jump over small obstacles just fells lame. (looking at you GW1)
Things like tackling attacks would also be neat, great way to make some1 loose balance, although quite risky.

 

[Parco]

and with the same mechanics, wielding a shield in front of you and bash into an enemy to knock him down. might work and would be fun.

 

[ZaratanCho]

I think there will be jumping, it would add alot. Also i think rolling was discussed too and probably will be added. I'm wondering about the skill system. I mean will you have to learn to roll first, or will you be able to train your jump, make it better(if they are implemented).With rolling, jumping, footwork and using the environment you will have more than enough. Shields, parrying too. Anything else will be a good bonus. ;D

 

[Mello]

Rolling in combat is pretty unrealistic.

 

[Komuflage]

Rolling in combat is pretty unrealistic.

So are ogres
This has already been discussed to a extend so other than that, I'll stay out of it

 

[Scarecrow]

Dunno, altough i like to have jumping in games, i can imagine it to get messy with the physics and all. In an isometric, its kinda hard to determine how high objects are, and how high you can jump. If you try to jump over a fence, chances are that your foot will hit the fence, you fall over, and stab yourself in the throat (wich would be amazingly funny). I'd like to see jumping, but think it will be hard to do properly, without you falling around like a clown.

 

[ZaratanCho]

It is not unrealistic, just not common. I see this all the time, how people judge what is realistic and what not. Everyone(most) is strongly biased and subjective. Open up. ;D

I aggree, Scarecrow. That will be fun because very cool things can happen, ridiculous things. Just some kind of jump, but i don't know, devs would know better. ;D

 

[tiny lampe]

So are ogres

I don't believe this to be a good argument.

Tu elaborate, let me use Superman as an example. Superman is a guy with plenty of unrealistic powers: he can fly, shoot fire from his eyes etc. When people read the comics, they don't normally complaint about how unrealistic all these feats are. They simply accept them as part of the story. Superman can do this. Period. Now, what makes people raise an eyebrow is how Superman can conceal his true identity by simply putting on some glasses. See the difference? Imaging than an alien can fly is assumable (after all, who knows right?) but imaging that normal people would not notice that Superman and Clark Kent are the same person just because one wears clases and the other doesn't...well, that's harder to swallow.

The same happens with rolling and Ogres. If Sui Generis world features Ogres, undead skeletons and magic, well, so be it. This is not defying common sense because Sui Generis world is not Earth. However, the rolling mechanic is a different beast. Any martial artist would tell you that rolling is the worse way to evade a hit because it involves throwing yourself at the ground, losing eye contact with the opponent etc. There is no reason to believe that rolling is any less of a terrible idea in Sui Generis world. That's what makes it unrealistic.

 

[Komuflage]

I don't believe this to be a good argument.

Tu elaborate, let me use Superman as an example. Superman is a guy with plenty of unrealistic powers: he can fly, shoot fire from his eyes etc. When people read the comics, they don't normally complaint about how unrealistic all these feats are. They simply accept them as part of the story. Superman can do this. Period. Now, what makes people raise an eyebrow is how Superman can conceal his true identity by simply putting on some glasses. See the difference? Imaging than an alien can fly is assumable (after all, who knows right?) but imaging that normal people would not notice that Superman and Clark Kent are the same person just because one wears clases and the other doesn't...well, that's harder to swallow.

The same happens with rolling and Ogres. If Sui Generis world features Ogres, undead skeletons and magic, well, so be it. This is not defying common sense because Sui Generis world is not Earth. However, the rolling mechanic is a different beast. Any martial artist would tell you that rolling is the worse way to evade a hit because it involves throwing yourself at the ground, losing eye contact with the opponent etc. There is no reason to believe that rolling is any less of a terrible idea in Sui Generis world. That's what makes it unrealistic.

Well our world dont have giant ogres and dragons etc, so rolling might not be viable in our world, but in a world where there is a giant ogre three times your size, u might not be able to just take an evasive step to avoid his giant flail, a roll might be the only chance u got.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Anything can be useful in the right conditions, a real fighter is not restricted by styles or rules and will not tell you, never to do something. Martial arts are different from the combat in the game, in martial arts you shouldn't judge a roll type of move just by itself. There is not much of a limit there. I do understand pefectly how you see the whole roll thing, but this is not always true. For the rest I mostly aggree. ;D

 

[Parco]

a roll, dive or completely toss yourself down to the ground might be the only safe way to avoid those huge weapons, as kamuflage said just taking a step to the side or backwards might not be enough. by tossing yourself on the ground/laying down to avoid a sideswing youll avoid the whole hit and will basically be defenseless as you will have to get on your feets again, diving away can create a distance(probably around 1,5meter) but you will end up with the same problem as laying down would. with a roll you would create about the same distance as a dive but you would still be at your feets so you would be able to move immediately after, but the cons about roll would be you wouldnt get as low as you would by diving or laying down. i would vote for a possibility to be able to do any of these moves, depending on the situation they all might be useful.

 

[Scarecrow]

I agree with both Komuflage and Tiny. Rolling in combat against a human is a stupid thing to do indeed. But as komuflage said, against a giant freaking ogre, that might be your only chance (to roll that is).

To put it like this. If a car is coming at you, it wont help much with an evasive step. This is because the car is so big that you need to cover more ground. With a roll or dive however, you will cover more ground, whilst making yourself smaller.

At that point, you cant really take into consideration that you need eyes at your opponent and your surroundings, you just need to get the f*ck out of there.
However rolling against a human/humanoid is just a stupid thing to do. You lose eyes on your opponent and surroundings, you expose yourself, and it takes much longer to recover. As someone who has trained a lot of martial arts, i know this. Hell, you don't even need to have any martial art experience to understand that. Just common sense

 

[ZaratanCho]

You can do it without losing sight/track of your opponent, and without exposing yourself. It can even be of advantage, even against a human. Situations are different, opponents are different, skill level is different. Don't be so absolute in your opinion. I also have a high interest in martial arts, but it doesn't mean all that much only by itself. I will stop derailing the thread, though. ;D

 

[tiny lampe]

I agree with the idea that rolling can be a last resort maneuver for when you need to move out of the way because else you are dead. What I'm not so sure about is if such move would be necessary to fight large opponents.

Of course it all boils down to how big opponents can be in Sui Generis but let's look at what we know: the Ogre. Judging by the video 'there will be blood', the Ogre is about twice the size of a normal human. He also uses a flail, which gives him extra range. Even in those conditions in no point while I watching the video did I have the impression that rolling would have made the fight considerably easier. On the contrary: despite his size, that Ogre was fast so maybe he could punish a roll by hitting the character as he is recovering from it.

For me, the best way to deal with an opponent like de Ogre would be to keep my distance and use a weapon with good reach like a spear. Keeping a good distance is a extremely important notion; if you can remain at that sweet spot where one step back is enough to avoid a hit and one step forward is enough to land your blows, you've won half the fight already. Against the Ogre, this strategy seems viable because he is not so big. Now, if Sui Generis is going to feature much larger enemies then rolling or simply a running jump would provide useful. Also the idea of ducking that I mentioned in another thread.

 

[Scarecrow]

Ok, i guess there are situations even against humans where rolling might prove usefull, and as you said, everything is circumstansial. However, in almot every fight, you wont have need for a roll, and more often that not, it will put you in a bad spot. When you roll, i wonder have are you going to keep accurate track of your opponent and his moves? You are, in fact, rolling around. The world spins, and you will also lose sight of him, for atleast a little while. When you are recovering from the roll, thats when you're exposed, because you end up disoriented with a low stature.

If you've ever tried rolling, and if you've ever tried fighting, you will know that very often it will result in a bad posistion.

Again, in some situations it might prove usefull, but i serriously cant think of a situation against a human where this is a smart move. Much less being able to do it without losing any track of your opponent, without exposing yourself, and putting yourself at an advantage.

 

[Komuflage]

You forget this is a isometric game, just because your character rolls, doesn't mean you loose track of him.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Yes I aggree, that is a good strategy. It would be cool if you can get very close to him and bypass his reach and use speed. Also when discussing this we should also consider that we will be fighting more than one enemy at a time too. You can try and take advantage of the physics in avoiding the blows and attacking at the right time, if you are fast enough. The physics elevate the game so much. ;D At the end how viable rolling or similar dodge mechanics will be in the game, I can't say for sure, maybe not too viable, but it will still be good to have them unless it is considered not worth the time to implement them, which can be the case. Other better mechanics can be put instead. ;D

Yeah it is very hard to keep track of someone when rolling and moving, especially if that someone is skilled, also depends on your skill. I aggree that in most cases it may not work out and it is quite rare for someone to pull it of in a fight. And we come back at one thing, which is that it all depends very much on the whole situation and the details, and possibilities. What is the purpose of the roll, it can be anything depending ot the moment. It may even work out simply because it is considered a very bad idea and it is unexpected. But discussing this in depth.. ;D

Anyway it is nice discussing with you. ;D

 

[nox]

About jumping, I would like it if it were automatic. No button you can spam to have your character bunny jump around town. But when you come across an obstacle you could perhaps double tap the forward key to make the character jump/climb/vault over that obstacle. I think this could work well in an isometric game like this.

 

[Komuflage]

About jumping, I would like it if it were automatic. No button you can spam to have your character bunny jump around town. But when you come across an obstacle you could perhaps double tap the forward key to make the character jump/climb/vault over that obstacle. I think this could work well in an isometric game like this.

But that would really limit the player, let me have control over my character.
Just make it consume a lot of stamina, so you can't bunny jump and I think it would be good.

On another note though, if jumping is included I hope it takes in mind your armour. So if you got some heavy armour equipped you can't really jump. (This should take your inventory in account as well, so you cant just put it all in your inventory, jump over the obstacle, and then equip it again.)