NPC regular behavior

[Bryn]

This is annoying me in almost every RPG, even more in MMORPGs.
What are NPCs doing before they charge at you like crazy?

Is it regular beast behavior to stand there, in the middle of the room, staring at the wall until they notice the opponent?
Similar with the undead. Sure, they have less things to do, since their only purpose (usually) is to kill the living. But that Skeleton waiting for you in the dungon... how long has it been there? What was it doing the last few dozen-hundred years?
But especially humans waiting like sentry drones for someone hostile to appear are a major destroyer of every bit of immersion the game tryed to accomplish.

But there are more and less simple ways around that to make the world look more alive.

Beasts of example, could scavange the area in packs for prey, lurking somewhere because they noticed you, eating prey, dragging it somewhere, fight/play with each other etc., but since they are alive, they have even more to do than kill. They could clean themselves in water, feed offspring in a nest, they could be owned by beings of higher strength or intelligence and so on.

Undead have less to do obviosly, but while they aren't alive, they have something else: history. They could be awoken for a certain purpose. Be it to haunt a place, to maintain machines, maybe even to clean the floors. Their original purpose could be long-forgotten, so they just are there, waiting. If they haunt the place, they could be doing that for quite a while, so being in the same position for a very long time could make them grow to a wall or something, so when they see you, they rip themselves off the wall with flying rags and dust. Also, I think it could take em a short time to get to speed again.

Human fighters.. well they do what human soldiers do. Patrol areas, sweeping through foreign areas, stand guard, make a camp for the night, protecting an expedition, ambush, hunt for a meal, duel for training, talk(or whisper), eat, maintain their weapons etc. or they could tourn around on a chair and smirk "I've been waiting for you Mr. Bond"
What they don't do is looking at the wall, waiting for someone to kill(except for guards maybe lol).

So basically, I want to see creatures being there for their own reasons, not just for me to give me a challenge and some loot.

 

[JamesButlin]

I have to say, you have a point mate Would love to see this behavior implemented

 

[Zodeak]

I definitely agree with this. All too often characters run into pubs or bars or "busy streets" and the NPCs just stand about without gorm. The Fallout games spring to mind.

 

[Mimel]

Yes, when I first started Skyrim, I was excited that many NPCs had a routine that matched the time, at least in the cities. They were at work during the day, early evening in the pub, and sleeping or home at night. They even walked to those places in between those times. However, even this became too routine for me after a few hours of play. Overall, the monster NPCs also had a great interaction compared to games before.

I hope to see this taken to a higher level in this world. The more realistic the inhabitants, the more playable the game. I think that is one reason for the MMRPGs, at least then you get some interaction that is not routine. I just want the interactions to have logic.

 

[Bryn]

Yes, but I doubt this game will be open world enough to make the devs worry about human NPC routine
(like work at the fields- buy - socialize -eat -sleep)
Since we're more likely to see mercenaries, it'll be much easier, because they should combine all these depending on the situation. Their work is killing, waiting or guarding. When they do this, they eat, socialize and sleep when it fits.

 

[Mimel]

Bryn, I understand your point. I know it would be hard to make such routine, mundane actions look more varied. I'm just thinking if there are so many people, then each person would have a different routine and perhaps once or week it changes, or for the market days or festivals we see a different routine.

I'm throwing out suggestions. The more the DEVs have the more they can see the big picture.

 

[BigT2themax]

or they could tourn around on a chair and smirk "I've been waiting for you Mr. Bond"

"Do you expect me to talk?"
"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to shoot me and wait up on top of those boxes until I declare out loud that it must have been my imagination! AND THEN I EXPECT YOU TO DO IT AGAIN! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

More on topic, I think this is a nice idea. I like the idea that enemies do stuff like just chat and walk around, or hunt (or do whatever it is they did while alive again and again) until the player comes along.

Actually, another thing I would like to see is enemies that STAY on alert if they see the player and the player eludes them. It's very immersion breaking to be spotted sneaking around some bandit camp, only to duck around some corners and evade the enemies, and just sit there and wait a few seconds, when they decide I must have dissapeared from existance and then they go back to what they were doing. It'd be a much better idea to have them stay alert for quite some time, actively searching for the player and whatnot, until they believe you to be dead or are fairly certain you've buggered off. Same for other types of enemies.

 

[Caiphas Cain]

^ Definitely. Skyrim anyone?

*shink*
Guard 1 "Argh! I've been shot in the arm with an arrow!"
Guard 2 "I think it came from over there!"
*guards search for ten seconds*
Guard 1 "Never mind, it must have been my imagination."
Guard 2 "OK, let's go sit down again,"

 

[walltar]

I think that system like skyrim could be used. But it needs more randomnes. People should have routine but it should not be absolutely set in stone, like whole town getting up at 6 oclock droning to work and then droning back to sleep. Also it should be affected by extrernal events, like caravan of traders arriving into the town. Then every npc should go to the town square and shop or walk around.

About undead ... it could be interesting if they are doing something. Like skeleton walking in circles or attacing something with it's sword, zombie beating against the wall. They have been ressurected for some purpose and they lost it long time ago, now there is only madnes for them. And what could be more frightening than rythmic sound you hear from dark room.

For beasts .. there is nothing more i could add.

 

[SergeDavid]

Well let me just spit out some ideas for npc behavior.
For a farmer of course he'll wander the fields, feed the animals, eat dinner at the table, and go to bed. However also... Loading up all his cabbages from the field (oh my god physically removing them from the field and placing them in a cart) and then hook up a steed to the cart and drive it to town to trade with a merchant or two that he's been trading with for years. In return he gets some things like cloth, food stuff he doesn't grow, etc. When he returns home he shows off the trades to his wife who starts to make clothing with the bolts of cloth and other stuff. Then a few weeks later the whole family goes into town for the Festival where they dress up in their new clothing and have fun, meet each other, and change news and songs.

Now for that new npc that has just been born into the world as a full adult wanders into the capital city looking for his lot in life, a recent vacancy in the neighborhood [because you killed someone]. Most of her time might be as an apprentice to another shop keeper until finally she opens up the abandoned shop that you killed the owner of. Anyway food is ready so there is my paragraph of the hour.

 

[Vincent101]

Well let me just spit out some ideas for npc behavior.
For a farmer of course he'll wander the fields, feed the animals, eat dinner at the table, and go to bed. However also... Loading up all his cabbages from the field (oh my god physically removing them from the field and placing them in a cart) and then hook up a steed to the cart and drive it to town to trade with a merchant or two that he's been trading with for years. In return he gets some things like cloth, food stuff he doesn't grow, etc. When he returns home he shows off the trades to his wife who starts to make clothing with the bolts of cloth and other stuff. Then a few weeks later the whole family goes into town for the Festival where they dress up in their new clothing and have fun, meet each other, and change news and songs.

Now for that new npc that has just been born into the world as a full adult wanders into the capital city looking for his lot in life, a recent vacancy in the neighborhood [because you killed someone]. Most of her time might be as an apprentice to another shop keeper until finally she opens up the abandoned shop that you killed the owner of. Anyway food is ready so there is my paragraph of the hour.

Wow, Serge. I really like it. You've described characters with a lot of life. I'd love to see that in this game.

 

[Mimel]

Yes, what Serge describes is what we've been talking about in this thread. I completely agree. As others have pointed out such details may be hard to implement from a DEV point of view. However, I'm all in favor of it. I'm not happy with NPCs that just do the same boring, standing around routine, just in different places at different times.

What I like about such detail is that I will feel more likely to stop and interact, ask questions about what they're doing or where they're going. It could lead to me attended a festival, which in turn leads to a better chance to meet new and interesting people. It would be a possibility to find new items that I normally couldn't buy as well.

Perhaps I need a better cloak or armor or a craftsman to mend my weapons, all of these are far more likely to be at a large market/festival. ALL of this because I noticed one NPC acting in a certain way. That's immersion.

 

[SergeDavid]

Please note however that in most npc's average day it will get pretty repetitive but there are chances for different behavior such as a festival where many npcs make a trip to a single location causing a ripple effect from other npcs with foreknowledge of events. I can picture a farmers every day life would be rather boring to watch until he starts being creeped out by this guy in full armor stalking and watching him all day and night. However those basic needs that npcs have that their every day routine drain such as clothes being worn out so they have to trade for it do occur and cause them to do things against the norm.

Imagine that there is an annual blacksmith guide meeting where all the masters and more experienced journeymen gather together at the Blacksmith hall to appoint new masters and change posts. They leave their less experienced guild members in charge causing a drop in more finished goods so you'll see cheaper things and in some cases jacked up prices as the apprentices and newer journeymen make bad decisions. Knowing about this other npcs might visit the blacksmiths a lot more in the coming week as they know they want the best for a fair price. Others on the other hand will try to take advantage of the apprentices and so forth. After the meeting you'll also see a lot of Black smiths journeying around as they change posts and are assigned to new ones.

It all has to work off those goals and how they implement them.
If farmer needs a new Scythe for wheat farming does the quality goal beat out the price goal and the days he'll spend traveling compared to the lose in profit from using an old or broken one? Then as he goes to town to maximize profit he will of course add goods to trade with and buy other needed objects.

This also effects monsters and how they behave. Lets take wild dogs, if one is hungry enough it might attack a wandering villager who goes into the forest for kindling or barries or might also sneak into a farm to kill a riding sheep. Add in another dog and they don't kill each other for food and they'll get bolder. Give them enough food sources in the wild like rabbits and they won't even bother humans.

 

[BigT2themax]

That is ABSOLUTELY what I would love for the AI in this, Serge. For the AI to act on things at a local and global level, based on what they primarily want to do (goals) and what objectives (objectives as in, immediate or short-term local things they need to deal with currently) they have to follow to do so, and the things they have to overcome (like, not having enough money or some other restriction).

I was thinking maybe goals would be some basic rules of life for the NPC that are set in stone based on the NPC type (maybe they're chosen from a list), and some basic objectives can be given to the NPC based on these goals. Obviously, most every NPC would have goals like "don't die", "don't get hurt", "don't work and do stuff if you don't have to", "eat as much bacon as possible", as well as other things necessary for their survival.

Objectives can be things the NPC actively does, like hunt around for rabbits to eat, or do their best to sell stuff at their merchant stand. Some objectives might be immediate, like "run away from the crazy immortal thaumaturge with the greataxe!", or they could be continuous things that they try and do all the time so long as nothing is stopping them (like eat food).

Restrictions, on the other hand, are things that stop the NPC from completing their goals. This could include things like inventory or status-based shortcomings ("I don't have enough coins to buy this thing I need", or "I'm too weak and tired to go work right now"), to maybe environmental or situational problems ("it's too cold to travel to town, and it's night and it's dangerous, I'd die as I currently am", or "I'm trapped in this cellar or whatever, and my pathfinding algorithms can't find any path that could get me to my objective, because the door isn't opening or it's locked or something"), and new objectives are created for the NPC to fix these problems ("go earn more money", "go and get some rest until you're better", "wait until daytime and then put on some warm outdoor clothing", "check every reachable area in the area for actions that might get you out of here. as in, they have something to do with doors or opening or something"). Objective may actually lead to more objectives, for instance, one could earn money by doing whatever work they have the skill to do, or they could steal something if desperate, or just go and beg someone for a few coins. In the case of the locked cellar, maybe the NPC sees he can reach a key, in which case two new objectives are added, "get the key" and "try unlocking the door using said key".

The farmer would want the new scythe (to take your example) as an objective, because his goal is to grow lots of food and such efficiently and fairly easily, and his broken old scythe is a restriction stopping him from completing his objective of harvesting his crops. Again, he'd be set an objective to go to town and sell some of his goods and earn more coin, because another restriction has shown up in the form of not having enough money to buy a new scythe. Things like that could do very well to create lifelike NPCs that go about their daily routines and also go to festivals and other events that come up.

I can picture a farmers every day life would be rather boring to watch until he starts being creeped out by this guy in full armor stalking and watching him all day and night.

As hilariously silly as this sounds, this made me think of another thing. Instead of just purely acting on goals and objectives and such, maybe also implement reactions to certain stimuli or prescences? For instance, the farmer would react to the player watching them by adding an objective (asking "can I help you?" or saying something else like "oi! wut are YOO doin' here?") after they notice the player character loitering around or staring at them. Same for approaching a merchant stand, or coming across a wolf in the wilds.
little things like that would make NPCs really come to life.

Okay, I'm done talking, you can wake up now.

 

[SergeDavid]

(asking "can I help you?" or saying something else like "oi! wut are YOO doin' here?")

No lollygagging.

 

[Bibidibop]

I like the OP's ideas. To Beasts, I would add the tendency for wild animals to pace uncontrollable if confined to too small a space. It's a real thing.