Suggestion for camera

[SabbyNeko]

Since you added the Align key, I've had it mapped to Spacebar. When I enter a fight, I put my attack cursor on the enemy and then hold down Spacebar. Now it controls somewhat like a WASD configuration. I use the mouse to turn left and right and I can strafe side to side.

Doing this, I find the fighting far smoother and I just have more control in general. This is the only way that the gameplay ever 'clicked' for me, and I don't really want to play with tank controls any more.

Would you consider some sort of action camera option?

 

[Madoc]

The issue is that character/cursor aligned WASD is counter-intuitive, especially when you are used to playing games where W is always "up". The character relative WASD may take some time to get used to but it is vastly superior in every single way. The game specifically uses a fixed camera from above over an OTS or first person camera because it relies on precise and complex cursor inputs. A moving camera and cursor inputs are fundametally incompatible, you can only have one or the other.

The cursor gives precise control over your character's movements and swings, it gives greater freedom and control and allows for inputs to behave consistently relative to your character and opponent rather than an arbitrary or fixed direction. This means for example that pressing W+D and performing a certain motion with the cursor will reliably reproduce a dash combined with a specific wide swing that can hit your opponent's back and simultatenously dodge their attack. It also generally allows for accurate targeting.

You may be able to crudely get by in the arena with only very basic control of your character, however in the actual game when facing multiple opponents and features of the environment such limited control quickly becomes completely inadequate and also leads to serious visibility problems.

This camera and control scheme is what lends the combat its depth and fine grained control. A camera fixed from behind would reduce the combat to something extremely simplistic where it's only really possible to attack in the forward direction and truly skillful play is impossible.

 

[SabbyNeko]

Then could we just have proper WASD? As in, D will go to the right of the screen, rather then the characters right. I don't see that changing anything, it just makes the learning curve a bit more reasonable.

 

[Tony]

Then could we just have proper WASD? As in, D will go to the right of the screen, rather then the characters right. I don't see that changing anything, it just makes the learning curve a bit more reasonable.

That wouldn't work though. W,A,S,D being character relative and not screen relative is what the entire control system is based off of. Changing it would make it so you could only move in eight directions instead of a full 360 degrees like you currently can.

 

[SabbyNeko]

8 directions would be preferable, to be honest. The current controls give me sea sickness. I just can't orient myself like that. I've tried, really I have, but I guess my brain just is not wired that way. I backed the game because I really believe in it, but I'm guna be blunt, unless there's an alternative control option, I cannot play this game.

 

[Madoc]

Well, I was trying to cover the reason why that wouldn't work either. WASD are relative to your cursor and the combination of the two is what allows movement in any direction with fine grained control and a consistent behaviour from your inputs. If W is up instead of a forward dash with a specific direction that you control relative to your opponent then repeating certain manouevres becomes impossible. The physics based motion and accurate physical interactions also make this kind of control necessary to land effective attacks. Besides this more advanced level of play, once you're past the initial confusion you start to appreciate basic things like "S is always dodge back".

Also, the game doesn't exactly feature tank controls, I think you'll find actually navigating the environment with WASD almost impossible as it's not designed to do this. The mouse is the intended input method for movement (RMB) but WASD controls are introduced for when you want to interact with objects or do other things with the mouse and still be able to perform basic locomotion.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like a lecture but as you can imagine this topic has been discussed many times because almost everyone is initially uncomfortable with WASD not behaving as they might expect. It's a different game and as such requires different controls.

 

[SabbyNeko]

I understand, really, but some of us just can't adjust. This doesn't feel intuitive to me. It's stopping me from playing.

 

[Tony]

I understand, really, but some of us just can't adjust. This doesn't feel intuitive to me. It's stopping me from playing.

Question: how long have you practiced? It may take a while to break old habits but with enough practice anyone can learn. I've been playing with screen relative movements for nearly 30 years; while it was a bit frustrating at first learning a new system, eventually it just clicked and became natural. If I can do it then so can anyone .

 

[SabbyNeko]

Question: how long have you practiced? It may take a while to break old habits but with enough practice anyone can learn. I've been playing with screen relative movements for nearly 30 years and while it was a bit frustrating at first learning a new system eventually it just clicked and became natural. If I can do it then so can anyone .

I have practiced, and I had to stop, because as I've already said, it makes me ill. I physically cannot adjust. What your asking is similar to someone who gets motion sickness from a narrow FOV to just 'get used to it'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way, I can't just stop myself feeling queasy when my brain is a step behind my orientation. IF I could, I would just adjust to the controls like everyone else.

 

[Tony]

I have practiced, and I had to stop, because as I've already said, it makes me ill. I physically cannot adjust. What your asking is similar to someone who gets motion sickness from a narrow FOV to just 'get used to it'. Sorry, it doesn't work that way, I can't just stop myself feeling queasy when my brain is a step behind my orientation. IF I could, I would just adjust to the controls like everyone else.

Hmm, strange. I'm just the opposite as you: if I played with spacebar held down I'd get motion sickness from the constant camera movement. I'm not saying you're lying but this is the first time I've heard of someone getting sick from a stationary camera. I'm not sure what to suggest that would help with your condition.

 

[SabbyNeko]

Think of it like this. Imagine your feet move a second after you want them to. Now try to dance. You're constantly having to think about this little rule, and compensate for it when ya screw up. It can actually make you feel queasy.

I actually just went back into the game to try it the proper way, and it's still just not working for me. Having to constantly keep a mental compass is nauseating enough, but having to swing with the mouse at the same time is impossible for me. I'm actually popping some of my migraine pills because of it.

Please guys, just consider a controller option, or optional WASD. I know you spent a lot of time on this and I don't like asking you to downgrade this system you clearly worked so hard on just because my brain works a bit differently, but I really don't think I can play your game the exact way you intended me to.

 

[Orlacktherof]

Meanwhile, here I am with top-down or my camera pointed at the wall to my left most of the time... Perhaps try top-down camera?

 

[SabbyNeko]

Actually, I took a few long reads of this thread, trying to get a better understanding of the games design, and I tested some Xpadder with it. Using the right control stick, I had precision swinging working just fine, so if I could use the left stick for character movement, I'd have the precision and control I need.

 

[Madoc]

@SabbyNeko We did experiment with a soft "follow" camera once though we considered a failed experiment. You should still be able to turn it on by adding CamFollow = 1 to the ini file.

 

[SabbyNeko]

I'll give that a try By the way, I used lookspring to get the sword swinging on Xpadder. It keeps the mouse in the center of the screen, so when you release the right stick it will move back there. I was able to direct my attack in all directions. It felt a lot better then having to draw lines with the mouse.

 

[SabbyNeko]

Strange, the ini edit doesn't seem to change anything.