Thaumaturgy

[Cooper Holt]

This will be a very open thread and hopefully a go-to one, as well.

One of the things I made this thread for was to ask a question (that I hope hasn't already been answered).

Is the only way to advance in thaumatugy to be near a dying thaumaturge/mage?

The reason why I ask is because, if this is, in fact, the only way to advance in thaumaturgy, I have a serious problem.
However, I wouldn't object to this giving you power, as long as it's not the only way to obtain it. I would like to use trial and error (focusing and trying again and again on a dummy/tree/imp/sack-of-flour/etc.) to advance as well.
If I've tried to resurrect a dead chicken many times and finally have it perfect, I should be able to then resurrect weak beings of that size and power during combat.

Scenario:
Brace yourself, this is long...
You are at your shack. It is about 7:20 in the morning. You have gone outside. You are admiring the beautiful, red sunset. You look to the poultry-pen when suddenly - you find that one of your chickens was gored by a hungry chicken-hawk.
That lousy, savage chicken-hawk has been giving you trouble since you set up camp a month ago. You decide it's finally time to fight back. Chicken-hawks are easy to kill, but they're also quite fast.
You get to thinking. You remember that your father once revived a rabbit through thaumaturgy of the mind. Oh, how magnificent it was.
You were there when he died. A sad thought.
You go inside and dig through your belongings until you find your father's notebook. He was a traveler, and he kept most of his thoughts in this book.
You blow off the dust, and flip through the pages until you find the day he was at home, bringing a dead rabbit back to life. He went through a very lengthy process of what he did, what he thought, and what happened afterward.
You walk back outside, only to find that that dang chicken-hawk has been at it again! That's two times today. This means war. You lay out the two gored chickens on a stump, and tie a nail to each of their beaks. You apply tar to keep the nails on straight. They have nearly been hollowed out, so you wrap their torsos with some leather strips and stitch them up with a needle and thread.
You follow the steps and thought processes that your father had written down, constantly cheering yourself on. "You can do this. Revive some battle-chickens. After all, dad did it. How hard can it be?"
After a while, you began to get the hang of it. Hands upright, hold your ground, look directly at the chicken, imagine the chickens re-animating, and focus...
*sigh*, nothing.
It's all about trial and error. You know the steps. You have the mind set, you just need to truly focus. You go through the steps again, feeling yourself gaining power. You cheer yourself on in your head. Something's happening, but it doesn't deter you from your current state. The power is immense, you are almost shaking...
Bagawk! *pleh*, *wheeze*, reeahh... ge-gegawk! Bok, bok, bagawk!
It's.. alive? It's ALIVE! Yes, you've done it! It looks like a disgusting, bloody pin-cushion, but you've done it! It's alive, standing next to its dead brother. It slides down off of the stump. It waddles and shuffles shakily, but at least it can move.
Now for the other one. You go through the steps, still grinning wildly from your initial success. You can't help yourself from giggling like a little girl. This was probably the most impressing thing you've done in a while. You breathe deeply. All has been temporarily locked away. You've done it before, just do it one more time. Stand in a strong position. Hands upright, feet firmly planted upon the hard ground. You feel it happening again. A very interesting feeling. You see a glint of colour in the are in front of you... then, nothing...
Then BOOM! So much mental energy, it feels like the most amazing epiphany you've ever experienced. Power. It's ALIVE!
This one is less shaky. It runs down. You know what they say, you never realize just how fast a chicken is until you resurrect one.
Time to deal with that little bugger. No more Mr. Nice Guy.
They appear eager (and perhaps a bit tired). They want to defend you, but that is not their purpose. They must kill their killer. Time for business.
You remember that you father had mentioned getting the rabbit to run in circles. It was pretty much the same process, just a bit simpler. Focus, look directly at them for maximum telepathy, and think what you want them to do. "Go kill the chicken-hawk in the field. he killed you, now go kill him." They probably understood part of that, so they waddled off in to the field. They started running. Suddenly, a chicken-hawk flew up from the field and took refuge in a nearby tree. You realized this was going to be harder than you had initially thought.
Every night for the next while, you waited for the chicken-hawk to come to the pen. You always got just enough sleep to keep you alert during the day. You had to make new battle-chicken zombies every while, but you always had enough. One night, he came. A lot of failures had led up to this. You went through everything. The chicken-hawk hadn't gotten any morer smarterer, but you had.

After everything, you finally killed that chicken-hawk. And boy, did he ever look good in your oven.

There. The significance of the above scenario (novel) is simply that he needed little to no previous thaumaturgic power in order to achieve a small feat of thaumaturgy such as creating and reviving some chickensteins.

I will admit that I went a little (way) overboard with this, but I just got into it. Meh, no harm done.

 

[Komuflage]

Ok so I've read the whole thing, and It was a fun novel I give you that, but I fail to see how this would even work in the game.

From what I understand, you want to be able to learn "magic" by simply trying to perform it?
And sure that's a good Idea, but how will it work in-game? You have to be able to tell the game that you're trying to perform a specific spell. Since if you just go to a dead chicken and press the "Thaumaturgy button" how will the game know you're trying to animate it, instead of just shooting a fireball at it?

Also if this kind of system would be implemented I would guess the "only" way to make it work would be that you have the spell, but can't perform it. (Like if you press Shortcut 8, it's say you have Animate equipped, but it will be greyed out to indicate that you don't know the spell yet) and you would have to press the "Thaumaturgy button" on a dead chicken for 1 min until your character finally "learn" Animate.


Don't take me wrong here, I'm not trying to bash your suggestion, but I cant see how this would work in a "fun" way, since "grinding" the "Thaumaturgy button" for 1 min is not very fun.

 

[Wakko]

There are a few examples I can think of that made magic "fun" to use and experiment with.

Path of exile has the support gems. Basically a gem that improve/change how a spell works. If you have say a fireball, there is a multiple support gem that adds multiple projectiles. So instead of one fireball you shoot say 3. Basic example

Two worlds two have cards. I never played this game, but I thought this idea was really interesting. So its basically like the support gems, as I understood it. If you had a summon spell, you could use a fire element card on it and it would become a fire elemental summon. Again, basic example.

Legend of Grimrock had different "signs" you could mix up to perform magic. So you find these scrolls which says which signs to mix to perform a specific spell.

We also have Magicka, you combine elements and it creates more powerful spells and effects.

So I guess there has been attempts to "learn" and trial and error on spells in games to suit your playstyle. But the above examples doesnt quite feel like what you explained. I am trying to think of a system that would've be too complicated nor a royal pain to actually implement. Making spells and magic dynamic without preset spell effects, combinations and so on... I have a real headache right now, but I'll think about this as it is really interesting.

 

[666jet]

(a load of text and a novel)

i think your idea sounds really good and was a good read

 

[Cooper Holt]

Ok so I've read the whole thing, and It was a fun novel I give you that, but I fail to see how this would even work in the game.

From what I understand, you want to be able to learn "magic" by simply trying to perform it?
And sure that's a good Idea, but how will it work in-game? You have to be able to tell the game that you're trying to perform a specific spell. Since if you just go to a dead chicken and press the "Thaumaturgy button" how will the game know you're trying to animate it, instead of just shooting a fireball at it?

Also if this kind of system would be implemented I would guess the "only" way to make it work would be that you have the spell, but can't perform it. (Like if you press Shortcut 8, it's say you have Animate equipped, but it will be greyed out to indicate that you don't know the spell yet) and you would have to press the "Thaumaturgy button" on a dead chicken for 1 min until your character finally "learn" Animate.


Don't take me wrong here, I'm not trying to bash your suggestion, but I cant see how this would work in a "fun" way, since "grinding" the "Thaumaturgy button" for 1 min is not very fun.

That's not at all what I meant. You don't just mash the button. You just have to try a few times until you get it right. Occasionally your spell will reanimate the chicken, but only for a few seconds, or perhaps it will only reanimate part of the chicken. Like said before, power helps alot, but trial and error works as well.
If you kill a magical inn-keeper and steal his silver-birch body & mind staff, then you will be better with thaumaturgy right away. But mostly, it allows you to regenerate thaumaturgic stamina (perhaps this will be called mana) faster, and learn spells more quickly.

I appreciate that you enjoyed my story.

 

[Cooper Holt]

i think your idea sounds really good and was a good read

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I think that the magic should be diverse, and the slightest change in mind-set and imagination should change the spell. People who are good with displacement-thaumaturgy should be able to summon more powerful demons than someone with low displacement skills. One of the ways to become better at thaumaturgy is trial and error.

 

[Komuflage]

I still don't understand.

"That's not at all what I meant. You don't just mash the button. You just have to try a few times until you get it right."

How would it work in-game? Since in order to try a few times (in game) you would have to press the button, wait for the animation, then press the button again, and again.

Maybe my imagination have died from all casual games lately where I don't have to think. But can you explain how you think it would work in-game?

I understand that you want the spells to work "a bit" in the beginning, but after doing it a few times (or a lot of times) you'll "master" the spell.

So if I try to animate a chicken, at first it'll just move in a circle for 5 sec and then it dies again, when I try again, it'll walk for 7sec, then 10 sec, and after that I will even be able to give it a few commands. And the 5:th time the chicken will "live" until some1 kill it again.

But I still think people would just "grind" these spells until they master it.

Take Oblivion for an example, it had a similar system (thou it was much more simple) where you had to attack with a sword in order to advance the "blade" skill.

The thing was that the easiest way to level up your blade skill, was to just find 1 easy enemy, turn up the difficulty to max and just attack it, find another similar enemy and mash the attack button, rinse and repeat.


I think that in order for this system to work in a fun way, there have to be some other factors in order to increase a spells "level" (Need some RPG fanatic who can come up with some idea here)

 

[Tottel]

I think that there will always be some grinding involved with skill gain; it's only natural that you get better when you train more.

Personally, I would really like to see something like what Cooper Holt described. I can imagine going into battle as a young, arrogant necromancer and attempting to resurrect a corpse to defend me. And failing because I'm not experienced enough.
And I don't mean just a message popping up with "Skill too low"; but the body standing up for a second before tumbling back down in a hundred rotten pieces.

.. But yes, this obviously needs more thought before getting something in game.

 

[Gubbb]

Let's say you reanimate a corpse badly in a combat situation. The corpse draws fire so the player has gained some immediate advantage. The corpse is amusingly bad at attacking but has sufficient blocking skill to survive a couple of blows. You could leave it at that or you could allow the player to attempt to improve the reanimation with a chance of making it worse. This could be fun and I think the physics based character animations could be made to permanently or intermittently have the reanimated corpse off balance to simulate the varying degrees of success.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I still don't understand.

"That's not at all what I meant. You don't just mash the button. You just have to try a few times until you get it right."

How would it work in-game? Since in order to try a few times (in game) you would have to press the button, wait for the animation, then press the button again, and again.

Maybe my imagination have died from all casual games lately where I don't have to think. But can you explain how you think it would work in-game?

I understand that you want the spells to work "a bit" in the beginning, but after doing it a few times (or a lot of times) you'll "master" the spell.

So if I try to animate a chicken, at first it'll just move in a circle for 5 sec and then it dies again, when I try again, it'll walk for 7sec, then 10 sec, and after that I will even be able to give it a few commands. And the 5:th time the chicken will "live" until some1 kill it again.

But I still think people would just "grind" these spells until they master it.

Take Oblivion for an example, it had a similar system (thou it was much more simple) where you had to attack with a sword in order to advance the "blade" skill.

The thing was that the easiest way to level up your blade skill, was to just find 1 easy enemy, turn up the difficulty to max and just attack it, find another similar enemy and mash the attack button, rinse and repeat.


I think that in order for this system to work in a fun way, there have to be some other factors in order to increase a spells "level" (Need some RPG fanatic who can come up with some idea here)

Yes, you will have to press the button a few times. It will have mixed results, but you can't just mash it over and over again. It takes time for your character to advance, and the first few times will have mixed results. It won't just depend on how long the creature is alive, it will also depend upon whether or not it listens to you, whether or not it attacks things, whether or not it can use all of its senses, etc.
It is a bit of a lengthy process, both for your character, and for you.

Or, at least, this is how I'd like it to be. This isn't a forum-page about my thoughts, it's about thaumaturgy.

 

[Komuflage]

Yes, you will have to press the button a few times. It will have mixed results, but you can't just mash it over and over again. It takes time for your character to advance, and the first few times will have mixed results. It won't just depend on how long the creature is alive, it will also depend upon whether or not it listens to you, whether or not it attacks things, whether or not it can use all of its senses, etc.
It is a bit of a lengthy process, both for your character, and for you.

Or, at least, this is how I'd like it to be. This isn't a forum-page about my thoughts, it's about thaumaturgy.

I just took the time it would stay alive as an example
The point is that I personally don't find grinding a button for 2H in order to master a spell very exiting.

Don't take me wrong here tho, I don't mind for it to take a long time in order to master a specific spell or ability and I like the idea of practice makes perfect.
However I think this system require some more factors to whatever or not the spell will succeed.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Let's say you reanimate a corpse badly in a combat situation. The corpse draws fire so the player has gained some immediate advantage. The corpse is amusingly bad at attacking but has sufficient blocking skill to survive a couple of blows. You could leave it at that or you could allow the player to attempt to improve the reanimation with a chance of making it worse. This could be fun and I think the physics based character animations could be made to permanently or intermittently have the reanimated corpse off balance to simulate the varying degrees of success.

Perfect! Yes! I couldn't have said it better myself. this is what my story was missing. Attributes for the reanimated corpses.
Say you are in a shady, seemingly abandoned dungeon. You've come here in search of loot, armour, and perhaps a good fight. You see orange light with a dark silhouette in the center coming from around the corner. Fire. This pace isn't abandoned. You decide to use light magic to make yourself appear invisible. You haven't had much practice, but you think you've had enough to get around the fire and behind the being who is sitting by it. You focus, andbend the light around yourself. All noise is muffled. You walk sneakily around the corner, only to find that the bandit tending to the fire is staring directly at you. You stand still. He draws his mace and runs at you. You sprint back around the corner, up the stairs, through the corridor, through the cave, and out to freedom. What went wrong? The noise around you was still muffled. You look down. You can see your feet. You can see your stomach. Your hands. Your arms. Everything. All you had done was muffle yourself and make the light around you a bit brighter. You tried, but it didn't quite work out as you had planned. But at least you know how to muffle.

You are fighting a forest imp in the woods. You remember your training in thaumaturgy, primarily of light and body. You think to yourself "How hard can shooting a fire spout be?" So you raise you hands, focus, and think about the fire-spout. The same thaumaturgic feeling happens, but the only effect is a couple of sparks and a coughing sound. You haven't practiced displacement/fire thaumaturgy, so you're not as good at it. But you have the sound and sparks part down.

You are in a rotten, abandoned farmhouse facing off against 2 goblins, one wielding a poisoned stone-dagger, the other wielding what appears to be a stick with a broken fork on the end. You buck up in the direction of the exit, when you notice a furry, fat, rat corpse on the ground next to you. It's a skeever-rat. You raise your hands, focus, aim, focus, think, and suddenly, the rat reanimates and jumps on one of the goblins. The second goblin looks briefly down at his fallen friend, giving you time to attack with your sword. The only reason why the skeever-rat reanimated so quickly and efficiently was because you'd had a lot of practice.

Thank you for pulling together my opinion.

 

[Komuflage]

Say you are in a shady, seemingly abandoned dungeon. You've come here in search of loot, armour, and perhaps a good fight. You see orange light with a dark silhouette in the center coming from around the corner. Fire. This pace isn't abandoned. You decide to use light magic to make yourself appear invisible. You haven't had much practice, but you think you've had enough to get around the fire and behind the being who is sitting by it. You focus, andbend the light around yourself. All noise is muffled. You walk sneakily around the corner, only to find that the bandit tending to the fire is staring directly at you. You stand still. He draws his mace and runs at you. You sprint back around the corner, up the stairs, through the corridor, through the cave, and out to freedom. What went wrong? The noise around you was still muffled. You look down. You can see your feet. You can see your stomach. Your hands. Your arms. Everything. All you had done was muffle yourself and make the light around you a bit brighter. You tried, but it didn't quite work out as you had planned. But at least you know how to muffle.

Felling like a hater for commenting about this again, hopefully you wont take it offensive, I'm just trying to figure out a way this would actually work in-game.

Let's take the above example, well written and I think something like this would be quit hilarious if it ever happened in-game. However, if you would perform the spell in-game you would immediately see that your character is actually not invisible.

Second example, also well written and a good example, however from a gameplay perspective, first of you would need to be able to tell the game somehow that you're trying to perform a fireball. Secondly since you know you don't have any displacement/fire thaumaturgy skill, so you know you can't perform the spell yet. You would never (at least I would never, and I guess a few other) try to use this spell, that you know your character cant perform in a combat situation.

You could try to perform it against a tree in a safe location, but it would still be: You, pressing the button, doing the "fail animation" a few times, every time you do it your character would get better at it. First time your character does the "complete fail animation" then your character would be able to create some sparks, then a small fire, then a small fire ball etc until your character finally learn the spell.


Gubbb's idea was quite good, and it would probably work, but you would still know that your character can only partly perform the spell, and at this stage the spell would have 1 out of 3 possible outcomes; either you get a completely useless undead, one that can "Tank" or the best, one that can tank, but also attack. And maybe there would be a 0.5% chance that the undead would work perfectly.

And most people would probably just "grind" the spell in a safe location until they got to a certain level where they think it's good enough to use in combat. (Unless the only way to "learn" a spell, would be while your character is in combat)

non the less we have to look at this from a in-game perspective.


I fell like such a douche bag for bashing on this suggestion, because that is not my intention, I just want to find a way so that this would work in a way that makes sense, in-game.

 

[Jonathon]

Hello, I've just read through all the post (the stories are all well written by the way) and I heave only one thing to add. That is I would prefer that the character would gain the most experience through practice in combat. Let me explain.

The main gripe Komuflage seems to have against Cooper Holt's concept is that people have a tendency to grind against easy opponents or inanimate objects. This is a valid concern that I share, however practice does make perfect and I would like this to not only be implemented in game but done well.

To use Komuflage's Oblivion example: I suggest that there be no difficulty slider to abuse. The way that Sui Generis is shaping it's self seems to be more skill based with a reduced focus on stats and more the ability of the player. The strength of the enemy will hopefully be in a skilled AI not in an arbitrarily large HP stat.

Furthermore the character should gain more exp per action similar to Oblivion, however the amount of exp gain should differ from foe to foe. A sword swing against a rat should not be equivalent to a swing against Mr. Piggy.

I say this for two main reasons: immersion and gameplay.
Most people will agree that they learn the most during crunch-time. You can try to cast flames on a tree all day but those endless hour will never adequately prepare you for real combat with actual dangers and chance of death. Both the physical and mental stress are on entirely different levels.
Furthermore, in gameplay terms this would effectively nix the possibility for mindless grinding. Especially since Sui Generis is meant to be a fully persistent world with no respawning and where every enemy is deadly.

I've said enough I think but to touch on the invisibility example I really hope that 1st person perspective will be implemented one day, or at least a zoom to get a closer look at the world. I'd like that is all I'm saying.

Any how the tl;dr is that the exp gain should be a marginal per-action based system scaled to match the difficulty of the encounter.. just my thought

I really like those shorts by the way Cooper Holt, maybe you should consider writing more full-time if you aren't already. Or at any rate write more for us. please.
Oh and before I forget Komuflage, you unrelenting honest criticism is a good thing. If something isn't perfect do say something. It increases the flow of ideas and reduces miscommunication (as long as we keep things civil)

Jon out.

 

[Cooper Holt]

I just took the time it would stay alive as an example
The point is that I personally don't find grinding a button for 2H in order to master a spell very exiting.

Don't take me wrong here tho, I don't mind for it to take a long time in order to master a specific spell or ability and I like the idea of practice makes perfect.
However I think this system require some more factors to whatever or not the spell will succeed.

I said it won't be grinding a button for 2 hours. That isn't exciting. It will have mixed results.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Felling like a hater for commenting about this again, hopefully you wont take it offensive, I'm just trying to figure out a way this would actually work in-game.

Let's take the above example, well written and I think something like this would be quit hilarious if it ever happened in-game. However, if you would perform the spell in-game you would immediately see that your character is actually not invisible.

Second example, also well written and a good example, however from a gameplay perspective, first of you would need to be able to tell the game somehow that you're trying to perform a fireball. Secondly since you know you don't have any displacement/fire thaumaturgy skill, so you know you can't perform the spell yet. You would never (at least I would never, and I guess a few other) try to use this spell, that you know your character cant perform in a combat situation.

You could try to perform it against a tree in a safe location, but it would still be: You, pressing the button, doing the "fail animation" a few times, every time you do it your character would get better at it. First time your character does the "complete fail animation" then your character would be able to create some sparks, then a small fire, then a small fire ball etc until your character finally learn the spell.


Gubbb's idea was quite good, and it would probably work, but you would still know that your character can only partly perform the spell, and at this stage the spell would have 1 out of 3 possible outcomes; either you get a completely useless undead, one that can "Tank" or the best, one that can tank, but also attack. And maybe there would be a 0.5% chance that the undead would work perfectly.

And most people would probably just "grind" the spell in a safe location until they got to a certain level where they think it's good enough to use in combat. (Unless the only way to "learn" a spell, would be while your character is in combat)

non the less we have to look at this from a in-game perspective.


I fell like such a douche bag for bashing on this suggestion, because that is not my intention, I just want to find a way so that this would work in a way that makes sense, in-game.

Yo, man! Stop hatin' on ma think-tank.
It isn't grinding a button for hours. There is no "fail" animation. You become more and more powerful the more you try it, until you master it.
It will have mixed results until then, like if you were to resurrect a skeleton and command it to attack a ghoul of some sort in front of you. The skeleton stands upright, walks over to the ghoul, and swings weakly at it with a rock. As the ghoul attacks, the skeleton can easily block, but fails to move quickly or attack effectively. As your character observes this, he will try to perfect the impurities through practice, or just the next time he uses that power.
Over time, through experience, you gain power and wisdom first and foremost on that power, a fair amount in that powers thaumaturgic field (i.e. Mind, Body, Force, Displacement, etc.), and a bit in thaumaturgy in general.
A necromancer won't be as good as a fire-mage at shooting flames.

I hope you understand now. Peace out.

 

[Cooper Holt]

Hello, I've just read through all the post (the stories are all well written by the way) and I heave only one thing to add. That is I would prefer that the character would gain the most experience through practice in combat. Let me explain.

The main gripe Komuflage seems to have against Cooper Holt's concept is that people have a tendency to grind against easy opponents or inanimate objects. This is a valid concern that I share, however practice does make perfect and I would like this to not only be implemented in game but done well.

To use Komuflage's Oblivion example: I suggest that there be no difficulty slider to abuse. The way that Sui Generis is shaping it's self seems to be more skill based with a reduced focus on stats and more the ability of the player. The strength of the enemy will hopefully be in a skilled AI not in an arbitrarily large HP stat.

Furthermore the character should gain more exp per action similar to Oblivion, however the amount of exp gain should differ from foe to foe. A sword swing against a rat should not be equivalent to a swing against Mr. Piggy.

I say this for two main reasons: immersion and gameplay.
Most people will agree that they learn the most during crunch-time. You can try to cast flames on a tree all day but those endless hour will never adequately prepare you for real combat with actual dangers and chance of death. Both the physical and mental stress are on entirely different levels.
Furthermore, in gameplay terms this would effectively nix the possibility for mindless grinding. Especially since Sui Generis is meant to be a fully persistent world with no respawning and where every enemy is deadly.

I've said enough I think but to touch on the invisibility example I really hope that 1st person perspective will be implemented one day, or at least a zoom to get a closer look at the world. I'd like that is all I'm saying.

Any how the tl;dr is that the exp gain should be a marginal per-action based system scaled to match the difficulty of the encounter.. just my thought

I really like those shorts by the way Cooper Holt, maybe you should consider writing more full-time if you aren't already. Or at any rate write more for us. please.
Oh and before I forget Komuflage, you unrelenting honest criticism is a good thing. If something isn't perfect do say something. It increases the flow of ideas and reduces miscommunication (as long as we keep things civil)

Jon out.

Wow, thanks! I appreciate the positive feedback.

We've covered most of our opinions in the newer posts if you want to reply to those as well. I like that you are making a compromise between our ideas.

"Dernt sterp berlervern." -Billy Joe Acorn Mays Hollandae

 

[Cooper Holt]

Big dingo donkus sundae update!

No more arguments, no more fooling around.
This is now considered some legit, mint, serious content.

-Dev posts
-Ideas
-Input
-Stories
-etc.

This is the go-to forum thread for thaumaturgy. I want serious stuff here, so please, no running in the halls.
This isn't a thread for trolls, this is a thread for devoted insiders.
Now. Back to business.

 

[Tottel]

I think a skill system as in Wurm Online could be very interesting:

Every skill is a floating number (think e.g.: 13.92) and constantly increases in small amounts as you practice.
Skills are completely intertwined and depend on each other in different ways.

For example, mining: Strength determines how fast you can do it, and how much stamina it drains; Mining skill will determine speed as well, together with quality of the ore; And there are a bunch more skills involved (mental balance, physical condition, ..), all having their impact.

It's important to note that you're not limited by your skills in the traditional way: If you find a fantastically strong weapon, you can use it with a level 1 weapon skill. It just won't be effective, and the weapon will wear out faster.

It's like that with nearly everything: You can try to perform even the most complicated task (Sculpting a statue with a level 1 sculpting skill). The skill just (mainly) determines your success chances and the end quality. But it's still possible to create a fantastic statue with a level 1 skill. You would just have to be insanely lucky.

How would this work with magic? Different ways, I suppose.
1. You could have all the spells available to the player from the start. It doesn't have to be in the traditional "list of spells" way. Maybe they're not written down, but the player can cast spells by performing specific movements with the mouse/keyboard. This way; it would be nice if someone teaches you how to use it (by telling you the combo), but you can still figure it out yourself by trying new combinations. (If you find something new, it would still be difficult, since you'd probably fail at whatever you just did, making it hard to recognize _what_ you just did)

2. You can learn any spell at any time from an appropriate teacher, but maybe your mana is insufficient to cast it it properly, or your chance-rate is just too low with your current skill level.

 

[MrLiZaRd]

Firstly, hello!

I have been browsing around but not really felt that I had anything worth adding to any of the discussions before now so have been content to lurk; quite possibly people will suggest I was doing better at that than posting but...

Yo, man! Stop hatin' on ma think-tank.
It isn't grinding a button for hours... You become more and more powerful the more you try it, until you master it.
It will have mixed results until then...
Over time, through experience, you gain power and wisdom...

I don't think Komuflage is hating by any means and I think what he's asking is not in conflict to the creative concepts you're bringing up. I think I understand exactly what you're saying but I guess the question that I am thinking, and I believe Komuflage is as well, is what prevents someone using a macro approach to repeatedly "attempt" to use a skill whilst they go out for a coffee/lunch/weekend break and then come back to find their character is a now master?

I think it comes down to what mechanism is used to permit you to make these attempts? If it's just pressing a button it's going to be open to the sort of abuse by just grinding as Komuflage has mentioned; do you have any ideas of how the mechanism could be implemented to avoid this? If the mechanism required some active involvement based upon feedback/visual input then it would at least require the player to actively participate in the process... not really fleshed out that as an idea, just throwing it out there.

It's not a criticism of the idea of having mixed level successes in your path from inept to adept and beyond but rather what is the mechanism of activating your thaumaturgic abilities and what prevents its abuse? It might be that the team already have this covered; I'd be interested in hearing their input on the subject.