Tighter control and better damage feedback

[restinpieses]

This game could be great. It really has potential. But atm I'm just rage quiting after maybe 1-4 matches.
Here is why:

Control: They guy never hits where I point. I'm dead on the opponents head, but the fist strike goes 45° of into the air (I kid u not). I move my mouse to accommodate for that and the F*** fist goes of 45° in the other direction.
This has lead to some hilarious fights where me and my opponent where standing in front of each other trying to hit but for an eternity everyone misses. I'm pretty sure my opponent was exactly, like me, dead on with his aim. But somehow there is so much variation in where the actual strike is performed it is just luck which one of u hit.

Another stupid thing. If i turn my mouse clockwise around my guy sometime the guy turns COUNTER clockwise. Or I have the mouse pointing straight at the opponents head, but my guy just stands there with his back to the enemy with no sign of changing that. The only way out is to make a dash forward away from the enemy and make a walking turn to align your guy with the mouse again.

And for me there is nothing more rage inducing then slack controls.


I would like to see a better damage indication.
I have had myself perform dashing hits (not blocked) which resulted in absolute no reaction from my opponent. On the other hand a whimsy half assed strike at me took almost 2/3 of my life and made my bar half red. And I only let out a short cry.

So, tighter control and better damage feedback and this game would be my favorite game after chivalry:MW has gone done the drain.

 

[Tony]

It sounds like you may not quite understand how the mechanics work. The only attacks you can precisely aim with the cursor are thrust attacks. For left-to-right and right-to-left attacks you can manipulate the height of the swing using footwork but not by placing the cursor on the opponent.

Also, you are spinning in the opposite direction because your character will attempt to follow your commands in the quickest way possible; it doesn't matter if you move the cursor clockwise or counterclockwise, whatever way is quickest to face the cursor is which direction your character will rotate.

Precise control over the character is quite possible; however, the game is heavily player skill based and it takes quite a while to understand exactly how everything works. Here are a few videos showing how I use the cursor to manipulate my character in a very predictable and controlled fashion (hopefully watching how I move the cursor and use footwork will help):

 

[restinpieses]

Thanks for your help.

Also, you are spinning in the opposite direction because your character will attempt to follow your commands in the quickest way possible; it doesn't matter if you move the cursor clockwise or counterclockwise, whatever way is quickest to face the cursor is which direction your character will rotate.

That's exactly what I'm criticizing here. The character should always follow my moves and not decide for himself whats the fastest way. Because more then often it just gets stuck on some "decision making"

The cursor in your video seems to have nothing to do with what your guy does. There is at least 1 - 1,5 second delay between your cursor movement and the character movement. That's just feels super awkward its like 56k modem lag and rubber banding all over again. Of course characters should not have lightning fast movements But the current "lag" is to much for me.

So the normal fist attack is a swing? It seem more like a straight attack and I'm treating it as such. Swinging the fist does not seem to be effective. If it is a straight attack it should hit where I point.

I also never managed to hit a stab attack either it does to little damage to be noticed or it just keeps on missing while I'm dead on target. idk.


I' happy to learn but I can't put up with control lag, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Tony]

There actually is nearly zero input lag. If you're talking about inertia, momentum, physics? Yes, all of these apply to combat and must be accounted for. If you throw your weight one direction you can't instantly reverse directions.

And again, you control which direction you rotate with the cursor. If you understand this then you can prevent your character from rotating in an undesired way by using accurate cursor placement. Notice how I didn't spin around in the videos? This is because I am aware that my character will always attempt to follow the cursor in the quickest way possible.

The cursor in my videos is used to do very specific things. Notice how I quickly flick it to the left of my character then back towards the opponent? That performs a left-to-right attack instead of the default right-to-left. Notice how I moved the cursor to hip level before an overhand strike to the opponent's head? That's because the cursor's "plane" is hip level and not eye level. Notice how I "wind up" attacks to increase the power by drawing an arc? There are so many different ways you can use the cursor to perform various maneuvers.

 

[restinpieses]

So it's mouse gestures instead of mouse dragging. I don't know if i like that. I tried that fast flick and it is powerful, but it doesn't feel right to me


Also on the damage feedback. I just had several fights like this: I hit my opponent like 4-6 times with heavy swings blood and screaming. Just do be one shot by a attack that seemed as powerful as the flip of a finger, a half assed one handed swing. wtf?

 

[Tony]

So it's mouse gestures instead of mouse dragging. I don't know if i like that. I tried that fast flick and it is powerful, but it doesn't feel right to me


Also on the damage feedback. I just had several fights like this: I hit my opponent like 4-6 times with heavy swings blood and screaming. Just do be one shot by a attack that seemed as powerful as the flip of a finger, a half assed one handed swing. wtf?

It's not mouse gestures -- the mouse cursor controls your upper body facing whilst W, A, S, D keys control which direction you step. The reason I quickly flick the mouse cursor when performing a left-to-right attack is to prevent my character from rotating in that direction.

Damage depends on so many different variables... For example: what type of weapon was used, whether or not it was a drawing cut with a bladed weapon, whether or not it struck an unprotected area, whether or not you were attempting to parry when struck (even if the strike lands some of the damage is lessened if you're attempting to parry), what part of the body was struck (head is most vulnerable area especially if you're not wearing a helm), etc.

 

[Elaxter]

detailed physics =/= bad control

Stick with the game, play with the combat when you're not fighting (like in the arena lobby area place.)

 

[restinpieses]

detailed physics =/= bad control

detailed physics =/= good control

I'm still not convinced. When I aim a perfect powerful punch and it goes way of my opponent and because my punch did go of 45° from where I aimed I am in his face and his just released punch with no power hits me for half health I refuse to feel responsible for this.

If the fist from an aimed attack doesn't hit where I point what else is there then luck to win a fight. And I'm not constantly swinging around, I do most of my attacks from a balanced stance. So there is no reason to go 45° off.

If my attacks go where I point I usually down my opponents in seconds. But as I wrote I had fights where we both where standing in front of each other unable to hit each other because the fists just moved in all directions but never where the cursor was.

I should also add that this is more a problem of Pugilism. In Weapon fights u usually swing and therefore u might still hit your opponent.

 

[Murf]

Cannot aim with punches, the only thing that can be actually aimed is the thrusts, for the rest of the attacks, they cursor needs to go off to either side of where you want to hit.

 

[ThornEel]

The problem is, characters are still drunk. Not as dead drunk as before, but still enough for the barkeeper to stop serving them.
One of the main reasons it takes dozens of hours to master the controls (I'm 50 hours in and still only average) is because you have to compensate for that.

Now, things can't be as fast as RL or it would be unplayable. But there is room between the 1s inertia between decision (click) and action in the game, and the .1s you'd find IRL.
Right now, controls feel clunky and weighted down. I will probably continue to sink dozens of hours in it because it's still fun (and I'm starting to feel good at it), but it never felt like anything like real combat (or at least, sober or even tipsy combat).

Part of this feeling is because of the still imperfect animations, which can't be helped at the moment. But most of it is because there is simply too much inertia. I'm not sure what constants need to be tweaked, but muscles need to be stronger and faster so characters can be more responsive.

The problem with that is, once you sunk enough hours in it, you are good enough to compensate for it and don't feel it. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it will drive many, many players away from it. In fact, right now and as much as I love this game, I almost never recommend it because I know the person will bounce off.

 

[Elaxter]

snip.

Sounds like you're just bad. Bet you think Dark Souls is too hard.

 

[restinpieses]

The problem is, characters are still drunk. Not as dead drunk as before, but still enough for the barkeeper to stop serving them.
One of the main reasons it takes dozens of hours to master the controls (I'm 50 hours in and still only average) is because you have to compensate for that.

Now, things can't be as fast as RL or it would be unplayable. But there is room between the 1s inertia between decision (click) and action in the game, and the .1s you'd find IRL.
Right now, controls feel clunky and weighted down. I will probably continue to sink dozens of hours in it because it's still fun (and I'm starting to feel good at it), but it never felt like anything like real combat (or at least, sober or even tipsy combat).

Part of this feeling is because of the still imperfect animations, which can't be helped at the moment. But most of it is because there is simply too much inertia. I'm not sure what constants need to be tweaked, but muscles need to be stronger and faster so characters can be more responsive.

The problem with that is, once you sunk enough hours in it, you are good enough to compensate for it and don't feel it. But it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it will drive many, many players away from it. In fact, right now and as much as I love this game, I almost never recommend it because I know the person will bounce off.

Thx thats a very good description.

 

[Murf]

The characters doe not move like other games, up, up, right right, left up. You start mashing keys like that they are going to look drunk. You have to have timing, and use the keys in time with their movements, momentum needs to be taken into account. It definitely takes some practice and hours applied to get it to look smooth, but if you are moving left left and then instantly try to go right, while your guy is still moving left, yeah momentum is going to make it looks like he is swaying in a circle in order to move in that other direction. They key presses while in combat need to be precise and deliberate. When all that comes together there is no drunkenness to the movement at all.

The devs KNOW it takes many many hours to get comfortable with it. They state that in the game desc, they are also aware that it will not be for everyone, and they are ok with that as well. They have also stated that the algorithms involving movement can still be tweaked here and there.

 

[ThornEel]

Leaving aside the condescending l2p from people who should know better,

When all that comes together there is no drunkenness to the movement at all.

Yes there is. It's just that at some point you stop perceiving it, the same way you stop perceiving a constant noise in the background after some time, when you adapted to it.

If those were giant mecha ducking it out, I would have no complaint. The need to anticipate the move of multi-ton beasts and be careful to keep balance would make this slow, deliberate gameplay and movement clumsiness great features. Just change visuals and sound, replace blood by sparks and voilà!
(This game is screaming for an Escaflowne mod...)

But those are normal, <100kg humans, not giant steel robots. And whether I am playing it or watching a gameplay video, however entertaining and tense it is, I never see anything remotely comparable to normal humans battling, let alone trained ones. Outside of the challenge itself, combat immersion is practically zero.

The devs KNOW it takes many many hours to get comfortable with it. They state that in the game desc, they are also aware that it will not be for everyone, and they are ok with that as well. They have also stated that the algorithms involving movement can still be tweaked here and there.

A long progression curve is, obviously, a great feature.
Leaving that aside, I do think it is a mistake to have a game where the basics of the one main action take dozens of hours to learn, as it considerably restricts the number of potential buyers. But this is their game, (and I egoistically find it fun as it is) so if this is a deliberate choice, more power to them!
Similarly, the difficulty to learn this new type of physics based and unfamiliar controls, this is fine. And I think people actually overestimate the actual difficulty of it - it is uncommon, but not that much harder by itself than more traditional controls.
(They are still perfectible, but not fundamentally broken.)

That said, I'm not sure they are inherently hostile to the idea of having an average player picking it up in only a few hours.
If they did fight like actual humans, it would probably be easier to pick it up, as a new player is expecting to play normal human fights arrives with very wrong preconceptions to how it should be played (plus the inherent difficulty of managing a fighter who just downed a bottle of hard liquor). So with faster responding characters, it would feel righter, less frustrating, give a shorter feedback loop and, even more importantly, initial intuition would help more instead of getting in the way.
(Turning them into giant robots would have the same effect on conciliating perceptions with function, though not change feedback loop.)

Other things can shorten the time to basics, like tutorials, training systems with feedback, more detailed help and tips and so on, but that's another matter.

 

[Murf]

Leaving aside the condescending l2p from people who should know better,

Yes there is. It's just that at some point you stop perceiving it, the same way you stop perceiving a constant noise in the background after some time, when you adapted to it.

That is incorrect.

 

[ThornEel]

That is incorrect.

Uh... would you care to detail?

 

[Bobob]

@ThornEel
I think combat would be too fast if you made it more realistic. Besides, more is to be added and I do agree that some small changes would be nice (gap closers, pugilism, maybe smoother walking in combat).
But I wouldn't say the drunkenness of combat is as bad as you say it is. I think it is necessary for the game to be playable to make characters slower.

 

[Solinarius]

So, I look positively hammered in this clip? Do I also look fat?

@ThornEel
I think combat would be too fast if you made it more realistic. Besides, more is to be added and I do agree that some small changes would be nice (gap closers, pugilism, maybe smoother walking in combat).
But I wouldn't say the drunkenness of combat is as bad as you say it is. I think it is necessary for the game to be playable to make characters slower.

I would totally dig the combat being sped up (or an option to choose to do so), but I'm not so sure my PC would.

 

[ThornEel]

So, I look positively hammered in this clip? Do I also look fat?

Well...
- One second delay between intent and actual strike
- Big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- Getting hit by big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- No subtlety in moves beyond "take big swing", "avoid big swing", "(fail to) block big swing"
- Awkward, uncertain movement (a separate issue due to the lack of animator, that I expect will be corrected in time)
- And of course, them not realizing they are drunk, and loudly proclaiming how sober they are

You don't look fat, that I can agree on.
But you do look so drunk you don't even know what you're doing (which do explain why you are fighting in the first place!).

 

[NachoDawg]

I absolutely think there people move like they are drunk in this game. That said, I also think people in CS:GO or CoD move like bunnies on speed as they can spin 360 degrees as physicsbreaking speeds + everything else weird about how people move in all sorts of games.

video game people just simply cant move like people in real life, because in real life we move so many parts of our bodies before actually achieving velocity. And video games cant predict your intended velocity before you actually press a button (and then expect to move in a timely manner) and simulate the same body language. That said, tonnes of games don't intend to move you in a realistic manner. Maybe that's because they aren't able to (no one are), but it does mean the gameplay is naturally designed around that fact. I don't think Exanima would be the same if people moved more realistically. I doubt it would be a more enjoyable game