Tighter control and better damage feedback

HopeDIV

Insider

With the new updates to footwork, I wouldn't really call the fights drunk anymore, maybe tipsy, but not drunk. Its really determined by the player how drunk the fights are going to look, I.E in this one I whiffed a decent amount of LtR's, those look silly because of the wind up; Or wild cursor movements and holding LMB. The game is never going to look 100% realistic, but I do believe at this stage, It doesn't look drunk.
 

ThornEel

Member
video game people just
simply cant move like people in real life, because in real life we move so many parts of our bodies before actually achieving velocity. And video games cant predict your intended velocity before you actually press a button (and then expect to move in a timely manner) and simulate the same body language. That said, tonnes of games don't intend to move you in a realistic manner. Maybe that's because they aren't able to (no one are), but it does mean the gameplay is naturally designed around that fact. I don't think Exanima would be the same if people moved more realistically. I doubt it would be a more enjoyable game
Apart from the last sentence, I mostly agree. I don't think anyone wants Exanima to be completely realistic in terms of speed and possible moves, though. The point is not to have Exanima a simulation, but an enjoyable game.

So how would faster response make Exanima a more enjoyable game?

- There is, of course, immersion.
The more believable it looks, the better immersed the player is - and having inebriated characters is quite immersion-breaking.
In a way, it's an Uncanny Valley problem : based on actual physics, it looks almost real, in a way that makes the difference stand out like a sore thumb. Compare to less realistic, more stylised moves in high-fantasy games with scantly clad female characters and ridiculously impractical swords. Of course, those stylized, unphysical moves are out of the question, so the only way out of the Uncanny Valley is to make those moves (even) more realistic-looking.

- Tighter, more believable controls.
As of now, you have to plan your moves as if you were piloting a giant war mech or driving a tank. This is not what is expected in a realistic human melee fight. So those controls clash with what is expected by a player, and creates needless artificial difficulty. After playing it for dozens of hours, we are now used to it, but it makes the difficulty curve longer by many hours for no good reason.
And what is, in absolute, a feeling of mass - giant metal robots would actually move that way - is also translated to the closest human experience, namely drunkenness slowing your movements down and ruining your finer body coordination.
And for the first dozen hours, it simply feels wrong. Which is a very, very bad thing to do for any game.

- Shorter feedback loop.
The thing about tighter combat is, it would speed the tempo of the fights up. The same number of actions takes less time, which means that in one hour, one can actually play more, and more importantly learn faster with less frustration.
Results of action and experimentation would be more immediate, meaning that you can train yourself more efficiently, and more enjoyably.

Now, how would it otherwise change the feel of the game?

Obviously, it would. It should be relatively light (and incremental) changes, if only to not overwhelm players, and search for the best working settings.
With the principle itself not changing, it would keep its core of tactical decisions based on position and distance. But the player would need to think and judge faster, and it would probably give a bigger part to reflexes - though you would have to take more instant decision, more than having to take lightning ones.
Would that make a less enjoyable game? It would certainly make it more dynamic, so it may do so for those who don't like dynamic games. But I expect those to be a minority, honestly, and an even smaller minority among the playerbase of a physics-based action game like Exanima.

That said, other changes would have to accompany it.
(Leaving aside the future improvements of animation that are already on the devs to do list.)

The argument of "it would be too fast to play" doesn't hold water.
This is because of how the game already works : what actually requires lightning reflexes and complex imput is automated. Namely, precision strikes (choosing where to hit exactly), and blocking. The player takes the decision (type of attack/do not attack for block) and the game executes itself.
So if you are taking a defensive stance, you will block that overhead strike, despite not having time to tell your character to raise a weapon and intercept it. You have taken the decision that an attack at that moment would be blocked (instead of attacking yourself) and the games executes your decision.

With a faster game, this part becomes even more crucial, and needs to be even more improved. The character needs to be smart enough to interpret your input correctly and understand that this "left click" means "use this particular opportunity to hit him in the (now exposed) shoulder with my axe".

Exanima's combat is, fundamentally, about taking the right decisions at the right time. This is where most of the skill is.
Tighter controls would mean a better decision tempo, better decision->result tempo and controls getting less in the way. (And characters less misinterpreting your decisions.)
 

ThornEel

Member

With the new updates to footwork, I wouldn't really call the fights drunk anymore, maybe tipsy, but not drunk. Its really determined by the player how drunk the fights are going to look, I.E in this one I whiffed a decent amount of LtR's, those look silly because of the wind up; Or wild cursor movements and holding LMB. The game is never going to look 100% realistic, but I do believe at this stage, It doesn't look drunk.
Still not convinced. They do look less drunk, but the drunkenness is still there, for the same reasons as before. The main change is that animations look less awkward.
At some point, the two characters literally face each-other off at fist range doing nothing for an entire second!
 

HopeDIV

Insider
Still not convinced. They do look less drunk, but the drunkenness is still there, for the same reasons as before. The main change is that animations look less awkward.
At some point, the two characters literally face each-other off at fist range doing nothing for an entire second!
Hmm, I purposely slowed down when fighting in that video, not to mention I was aware it was recording. As to the characters looking at each other, of course they stand still for a bit, he's waiting for me to make a move, and I'm waiting for him. As for your former points:
"- One second delay between intent and actual strike
- Big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- Getting hit by big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- No subtlety in moves beyond "take big swing", "avoid big swing", "(fail to) block big swing"
- Awkward, uncertain movement (a separate issue due to the lack of animator, that I expect will be corrected in time)"
- Not sure if your referring to input lag or the time it takes for the swords to swing, but the input lag is minimal, and the sword swing is probably less than a second. So animations, or the way people swing to get momentum?
- Well its not going to be 100% realistic, and none of those moves are so telegraphed besides the Ltr's.
- There is trusting, overheads, ripostes, remise, moving with swings, LtR, etc. There is that portion of, take swing, don't get hit by swing. But thats pretty fundamental.
- Addressed in video I suppose.

Apart from the last sentence, I mostly agree. I don't think anyone wants Exanima to be completely realistic in terms of speed and possible moves, though. The point is not to have Exanima a simulation, but an enjoyable game.

The argument of "it would be too fast to play" doesn't hold water.
This is because of how the game already works : what actually requires lightning reflexes and complex imput is automated. Namely, precision strikes (choosing where to hit exactly), and blocking. The player takes the decision (type of attack/do not attack for block) and the game executes itself.
So if you are taking a defensive stance, you will block that overhead strike, despite not having time to tell your character to raise a weapon and intercept it. You have taken the decision that an attack at that moment would be blocked (instead of attacking yourself) and the games executes your decision.

With a faster game, this part becomes even more crucial, and needs to be even more improved. The character needs to be smart enough to interpret your input correctly and understand that this "left click" means "use this particular opportunity to hit him in the (now exposed) shoulder with my axe".

Exanima's combat is, fundamentally, about taking the right decisions at the right time. This is where most of the skill is.
Tighter controls would mean a better decision tempo, better decision->result tempo and controls getting less in the way. (And characters less misinterpreting your decisions.)
As it currently stands, you don't need lighting fast reflexes to win, you can use fast reflexes to block, but beyond that not really. The argument of too fast to play certainly holds water, maybe not impossible to play, but hardly more fun.
Its a bit more than just determining to attack or block and the game taking it from there, you have to move your character to face an incoming attack for the best chance to block it, and when attack you need to move to determine where and how hard you strike.
The character needs to be smart enough to take away strategy? There's no need to turn it into just click and have your swing automatically hit the enemy, that's not improving anything in my eyes. That's taking away a lot of the skill in managing your own swings.
Any game is about making the right decisions at the right time, its about how those decisions are made which makes the game. A game with nothing but quick-time events has right decisions at the right time.
The characters don't misinterpret your inputs :p , I could be behind tweaking combat but reading your posts makes it seem like your advocating for faster but less skill induced results more so than a meaningful change in tempo.
 

ThornEel

Member
- Not sure if your referring to input lag or the time it takes for the swords to swing, but the input lag is minimal, and the sword swing is probably less than a second. So animations, or the way people swing to get momentum?
- Well its not going to be 100% realistic, and none of those moves are so telegraphed besides the Ltr's.
- There is trusting, overheads, ripostes, remise, moving with swings, LtR, etc. There is that portion of, take swing, don't get hit by swing. But thats pretty fundamental.
- Addressed in video I suppose.
-Not input lag, but the time for the physical action to happen.
- Of course it's not going to be 100% realistic. That's not the point.
- All of those moves fall under "take/block/avoid a big swing".

Let me rephrase that. It's been five years since I practised any combat sport, and one year since I found time to do sport with any regularity.
I would still, right now, take my chances against them in the arena. (Just to be on the safe side, I'd allow myself half a day getting familiar with the weapon.)
They are that much below RL human level.

The characters don't misinterpret your inputs :p
When my character takes special care to hit the opponent square in the weapon/shield when more than half the body is unprotected, I call that misinterpreting my input. Either that, controls being broken or needlessly requiring hand-eye coordination rarely found outside of top FPS progamers (if you have to actually follow a on-sceen 1mm head moving unpredictably for one second to have a chance at head hit). All three are bad, but I suspect the first one is the best description : when directing a character from above with the mouse, it has to be smart enough itself. But...

The character needs to be smart enough to take away strategy?
is the exact opposite of what I tried (without success, it seems) to write.
The character has to be smart enough so you can concentrate on strategy.
Which becomes even more true if they can move at any sort of half-reasonable speed, as you won't have time to make the mental calculations to try and compensate their drunkenness as is the case now.

Note that, on that point, you still wouldn't really need faster reflexes - what you would need is the ability to take more decisions at a given time. Reducing the 2s feedback loop (decision/order->action->recovering from action) to, say, 1s or even .5s is still way below "lightning fast" reflex level, and at a range most people should be comfortable with (gameplay tests would be necessary to determine the exact limit, though).


But the fundamental problem is this:
Imagine you have several racing games.

One sort is arcade-like, with unrealistic, stylized physics and art, and even sometimes arrowhead-shaped hovering cars zooming around. Pretty fun, even if unrealistic, though not in the segment we are interested in there - but they are the most common, so we have to mention them.

Another sort is sport car simulation. To varying degrees of fidelity and simplification, they are trying to simulate real physics and use real principles of drive, car inertia, tire adherence, engine consumption, heating and damage... It can be challenging and pretty fun for the more simulation-minded players.

Related, there are those taking the same physics/realism-based gameplay, but apply it to heavy trucks. The gameplay is quite different: due to their enormous mass and lower speed, you have to anticipate each and everyone of your actions. While true to an extent with the previous ones, here it is amped up to eleven.
Sure, you couldn't recklessly take a sharp turn at the last instant, but now you have to anticipate things several times before to even get a chance to not crash.

Now there is this game - it is not a Formula-One simulator, but it still has mid-to-high-end cars. It also has this interesting control scheme with the mouse and a tactics-like view from above, which gives an emphasis on decision-making over pure reflexes like the other games.
But when you play it, you discover that cars are going half their real speed, and have ten times the inertia they should have.
(Now, controls aren't quite as good as they could be, sometimes you click on the road and it comes crashing in the street lamp it thought you had clicked on, but those should be fixed at some point, so let's not worry about that right now.)

What feeling does it gives? The driver is drunk. The cars are underpowered.
In fact, what is really happening is that it is using the heavy truck model of the previous game, while depicting cars.
And while players can bludgeon their intuition to obedience and ultimately work with that gameplay, it is still too much of a discrepancy.

Remaking the entire game to display trucks is out of the question, so instead you have to tweak the physics from "heavy truck" to "about car-like".
No need to make it like the Formula-One simulation above. Not only would you need to simulate too many details, but the control scheme would also make that too hard to play. Have you tried to steer a 650kg at 300km/h in narrow streets with a mouse from above?
But right now, the cars are about 20 000kg and top at 80km/h, which is respectively about 20 times and half what they should be in the best cases.

I doubt many would be against seriously tweaking that.
 

Solinarius

Member
Well...
- One second delay between intent and actual strike
- Big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- Getting hit by big, wide, easy to counter, telegraphed moves
- No subtlety in moves beyond "take big swing", "avoid big swing", "(fail to) block big swing"
- Awkward, uncertain movement (a separate issue due to the lack of animator, that I expect will be corrected in time)
- And of course, them not realizing they are drunk, and loudly proclaiming how sober they are :)

You don't look fat, that I can agree on.
But you do look so drunk you don't even know what you're doing (which do explain why you are fighting in the first place!).
Well played, lol! :D:D:D

To be fair, that was a clip in which I was recklessly demonstrating my 'Flurry' technique and a proactive feint.
 

Solinarius

Member
Despite how wildly I was playing, I was being fairly subtle and I was making calculated strikes. In fact, I only made a few full swings. Still, I see what you are getting at. It's all relative. There is elegance and precision, more so than any other melee combat game I can think of that isn't just a simplistic 2d arcade game. The steadfast anal retentive elegance and precision you're seeking in Exanima is likely a long way off. The current stance doesn't allow for realistic practicality or subtlety.

No, warriors in Exanima don't really behave like true martial artists, however, they just may in time after stances are implemented and as animations are further improved. There is a huge difference between an inexperienced player and a practiced one, and many ideas and techniques in real life can be applied to Exanima's combat, and the control feels good in my practiced hands. That's good enough for me for the time being.
 
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Fdel

Member
Saying there no drunkness in the fight video is quite laughtable...and thats not IMO it s a fact. No hip strenght, jelly legs....overswings.
Just watch a fight from any medieval academy or some medieval championship video.
There s so much more than mere physics in a combat.
The sad fact is: as long they don t implement muscle interaction and rigidness linked to the skeleton this will be a drunk game. And that must be hell to implement, if possible at all.
And even if implemented....how to control it ?

It doesn t mean the game ain t fun, it is.

BTW i would like to see a short weaponry fight for a change all the examples are 2handers.

This leave me twith a question why cursor circle is so wide ?
 
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