Don Kanaille
Insider
Oh, but I´m all for the general idea of holstering weapons! I posted on the steam forums just yesterday:
Weapon sheath on the character?
- Thread starter NachoDawg
- Start date
Anthony Obilor
Insider
Well I hope they don't decide not to make sheathing for 1handers because 2 handers cannot be sheathed. Realism and gameplay needs to be balanced. I can see the realism factor, 2 handers are generally too long to be u sheathed from the back. Carrying it on your shoulder is fine as well guess, but what happens when we have mechanics like not being able to carry a naked weapon in a town, or area? Do we put it into our magic bag of holding where it magically fits? I am a 1h sword user, so I am not arguing for 2 handers,just trying to think up ways with the community that could be feasible in context of the game.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
oh, its not that 2-handers cant be sheathed - most 2-handed swords can have sheaths - even the barking mad flamboyant zweihanders with parrying flukes can have sheaths. A sheath is just two laths of wood, some glue and linen, and some leather, when its distilled down to its parts.
Its just that it cant be carried on the back and drawn from there, so they dont have straps and the likes to be worn. and its that I'd like to see avoided.
Implementing scabbards (with a little bit of IK physics making them sway when they've got a sword in it, so there's a bit of motion there) would contribute to the overall feel of the character's physicality.
As for in settlements, I'd like to think that the whole inventory system will be improved significantly from, as you put it, "our magic bag of holding where it magically fits" later on. How much of that should be realism, how much a simplified system, etc is all down to design choice.
And who knows, maybe the safe settlements will have laws that mean all weapons are left at the city gates?
Its just that it cant be carried on the back and drawn from there, so they dont have straps and the likes to be worn. and its that I'd like to see avoided.
Implementing scabbards (with a little bit of IK physics making them sway when they've got a sword in it, so there's a bit of motion there) would contribute to the overall feel of the character's physicality.
As for in settlements, I'd like to think that the whole inventory system will be improved significantly from, as you put it, "our magic bag of holding where it magically fits" later on. How much of that should be realism, how much a simplified system, etc is all down to design choice.
And who knows, maybe the safe settlements will have laws that mean all weapons are left at the city gates?
Anthony Obilor
Insider
True there could be lass like that, but what of cases where it just needs to be sheathed. Now let's say 2 handers have sheathed and are carried on the shoulder, what happens to the scabbard when you unsheathe? Do you drop it to the floor to be picked up after the fight? This can become tedious if after every fight u have to pick up your scabbard. Does it disappear only to reappear when you press sheath? Does it go into your inventory? If 1 hander sheaths are physically represented at all times, I would say the 2h ones have to for consistency. So what is a viable way of doing sheathing and u sheathing for 2h,what happens to the sheath?
Don Kanaille
Insider
I think the point were are trying to get across is that two-handed weapons can be sheathed, but not in a way which allows you to carry them hands-free on your body while at the same time being able to quickly draw them.
If you want something to savely carry around all the time and be combat ready in a pinch, a two-hander is simply not the weapon for you.
I dont want to come off as a wisecrack, but many people still have a kinda gamey mindset - which Exanima and Sui Generis are actively trying to avoid. This is just one example.
If you want something to savely carry around all the time and be combat ready in a pinch, a two-hander is simply not the weapon for you.
Well, when you enter a city which forbids carrying (open) weapons you usually just hand them to the guards which will store them for you until you leave, maybe against a small fee. Perfectly realistic and no magical bag of holding needed
I dont want to come off as a wisecrack, but many people still have a kinda gamey mindset - which Exanima and Sui Generis are actively trying to avoid. This is just one example.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
TBH, I dont know the solutions, and my personal tastes may not be the average.
But, my inclination is to go for one of the following:
Option 1: that 2h weapons simply dont have scabbards, and are carried on the shoulder bare if readied for quick-access. That follows the same pattern as maces, horseman's warhammers, or axes carried at the hip, or halberds, pollaxes, etc carried on the shoulder too.
Option 2: have some concession to reality, and the scabbard goes to the inventory when the sword's equipped, and a sword and matching ID'd scabbard are merged to one item in the inventory, if both are placed in there.
Option 3: that scabbards have more game-play benefit to them, instead of just cosmetic. Does a scabbard give an increase to NPC dialogue, improving the disposition to the character? Is confronting an NPC with a readied, drawn sword an act of agression? Does it cause a negative reaction?
Having scabbards just for the same of look strikes me as being a waste of resources, so I'm personally inclined to go for some combination of all three options that I can think of there.
But, my inclination is to go for one of the following:
Option 1: that 2h weapons simply dont have scabbards, and are carried on the shoulder bare if readied for quick-access. That follows the same pattern as maces, horseman's warhammers, or axes carried at the hip, or halberds, pollaxes, etc carried on the shoulder too.
Option 2: have some concession to reality, and the scabbard goes to the inventory when the sword's equipped, and a sword and matching ID'd scabbard are merged to one item in the inventory, if both are placed in there.
Option 3: that scabbards have more game-play benefit to them, instead of just cosmetic. Does a scabbard give an increase to NPC dialogue, improving the disposition to the character? Is confronting an NPC with a readied, drawn sword an act of agression? Does it cause a negative reaction?
Having scabbards just for the same of look strikes me as being a waste of resources, so I'm personally inclined to go for some combination of all three options that I can think of there.
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Anthony Obilor
Insider
@Don Kanaille that is for one scenario, what if u are allowed to carry a sheathed weapon but a naked weapon calls the guard to confront you. The scenarios are different. I also understand the point completely which is why I said I understand. What I am saying is, we know the realities of not been able to have 2 handers nicely equipped on the paper doll, now how can we make it work in context of the game.
@J.G. Elmslie i am not in anyway trying to make the game more gamey, I understand and appreciate the realism and authenticity that the game follows, but as the devs have stated, this isn't a medieval simulator and this allows some unrealistic leeway. I think it would be nice to have more functionality to scabbard than simply cosmetic. Npc disposition depending on your weapon sheath status is a good viable option, using unsettling as a way to influence scenarios e.g. You are confronted by bandits, u unsheathing ur weapon could cause fear and possibly make them back off or be wary when moving in. Never forget this is first a game that is trying to be authentic and Immersive, concessions have to be given to have a good balance between game and reality. I am not arguing for more gaminess but for us to turn our brains inside out to find plausible ways to add gameplay features without offending reality too much.
Some info to help us think better:
1. Scabbard add immersion to the whole gameplay experience.
2. 2h scabbard on back(equipped) is unrealistic to people with more knowledge on medieval combat but not to the general public
3. if scabbard of 1h weapons can block incoming blows by simply being in the way doesn't that give them another advantage to protection over 2h wielders?
4. scabbards can add extra level of gameplay by having different npc reactions.
5. 2h on shoulder could have the benefit of being unsheathed faster since it is already in your hand?
6. Scabbard add tacticality by having a sheath and unsheath animation which takes time.
@J.G. Elmslie i am not in anyway trying to make the game more gamey, I understand and appreciate the realism and authenticity that the game follows, but as the devs have stated, this isn't a medieval simulator and this allows some unrealistic leeway. I think it would be nice to have more functionality to scabbard than simply cosmetic. Npc disposition depending on your weapon sheath status is a good viable option, using unsettling as a way to influence scenarios e.g. You are confronted by bandits, u unsheathing ur weapon could cause fear and possibly make them back off or be wary when moving in. Never forget this is first a game that is trying to be authentic and Immersive, concessions have to be given to have a good balance between game and reality. I am not arguing for more gaminess but for us to turn our brains inside out to find plausible ways to add gameplay features without offending reality too much.
Some info to help us think better:
1. Scabbard add immersion to the whole gameplay experience.
2. 2h scabbard on back(equipped) is unrealistic to people with more knowledge on medieval combat but not to the general public
3. if scabbard of 1h weapons can block incoming blows by simply being in the way doesn't that give them another advantage to protection over 2h wielders?
4. scabbards can add extra level of gameplay by having different npc reactions.
5. 2h on shoulder could have the benefit of being unsheathed faster since it is already in your hand?
6. Scabbard add tacticality by having a sheath and unsheath animation which takes time.
NachoDawg
Member
Oh but I think there's always a way to gently ham-fist a 2-hander sheath in to a fantasy game with ogres and magic.
Who said we need a sheath that covers the entire thing like regular swords are covered? I honestly don't know if the example image is a realistic solution to how they did it in olden times, but even if it's a modern invention then it solves the problem of "arm-length vs sword length over your back" which was mentioned earlier. And none of us want ugly clipping, so this would be a neat half-way solution
But they didn't do it in medieval times
That's okay, the game is not fixed to medieval time. What ever element that fits the fantasy setting is probably OK
But you can not quick-draw
That's okay, my number one point of sheaths is is that you shouldn't have to go through the inventory to arm yourself. As long as the sheath-draw is slightly faster than the usual inventory process then I'm happy
But those swords are heavy, you need a horse to carry it
It's a fantasy game. We are going to sprint marathons in full plate. I hope gear affects weight on the character, and if your character isn't "strong" enough to satisfy the suspension of belief and be controlled all right then you probably wont bother to sheathe it
--------------
In the hedge knight's great thread of dev quotes, Madoc explain that they don't want crafting beyond maybe simple creation of consumables. Other jobs are given to craftsmen. Maybe you can hand any given sword to a craftsman and ask for a sheath?
I'm unsure if we could expect to find a scabbard to every weapon
Who said we need a sheath that covers the entire thing like regular swords are covered? I honestly don't know if the example image is a realistic solution to how they did it in olden times, but even if it's a modern invention then it solves the problem of "arm-length vs sword length over your back" which was mentioned earlier. And none of us want ugly clipping, so this would be a neat half-way solution
But they didn't do it in medieval times
That's okay, the game is not fixed to medieval time. What ever element that fits the fantasy setting is probably OK
But you can not quick-draw
That's okay, my number one point of sheaths is is that you shouldn't have to go through the inventory to arm yourself. As long as the sheath-draw is slightly faster than the usual inventory process then I'm happy
But those swords are heavy, you need a horse to carry it
It's a fantasy game. We are going to sprint marathons in full plate. I hope gear affects weight on the character, and if your character isn't "strong" enough to satisfy the suspension of belief and be controlled all right then you probably wont bother to sheathe it
--------------
In the hedge knight's great thread of dev quotes, Madoc explain that they don't want crafting beyond maybe simple creation of consumables. Other jobs are given to craftsmen. Maybe you can hand any given sword to a craftsman and ask for a sheath?
I'm unsure if we could expect to find a scabbard to every weapon
Don Kanaille
Insider
I cant help myself: Swords aren´t heavy. Not even war hammers, axes or polearms: they are certainly lighter than similar working tools, like wood axes or scythes.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
Who said we need a sheath that covers the entire thing like regular swords are covered? I honestly don't know if the example image is a realistic solution to how they did it in olden times
As a Historian, my response is "NO".
as a Scotsman, my response is "OH FUCK NO." avoid that shite like the plague, please.
NachoDawg
Member
I don't have a problem believing you. It was just for the gentleman who said
Which I also don't have a problem believing. I'm just safeguarding my self here!
NachoDawg
Member
hey now, our kilted friend in the picture just modeled what I was thinking about
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
OK, after my rather blunt response earlier, here's the longer reply.
First off, these back scabbards are completely ahistorical. There is not one single reference I know of in the entire body of medieval art, depicting such a device. And I have a reference library for these sort of things in excess of 10,000 manuscript images, a few thousand effigies, hundreds of digitised books from all over the whole of Europe.
Not one reference to anything of the sort.
Technically, in terms of performance, they are utterly useless. A scabbard is designed for three uses - in order of priority:
1: to protect the sword from corrosion, by being exposed to the elements. In reality, a sword will spend vastly more of its life sheathed, than being used. The sword in that picture is a modern wall-hangar, a lump of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Real swords are carbon steel, which corrodes rapidly - quite literally, leaving one out in the rain for an hour will leave it with marks on the blade. just one hour is all it takes.
2: to safely protect the blade - from accidental contact, (you don't want a sharp edge exposed anywhere its going to get caught, accidentally run fingers along edges, etc) and These exposed sheaths fail on both performance criteria of a scabbard.
3: it should assist transportation. This comes a distant third in importance.
the design fails utterly on the first 2, and #3 is only in the context of it being carried.
Its construction method is completely wrong. Chrome-tan leather, no wood, no linen, steel chromed buckles. these are not medieval materials, and it shows. Its an entirely modern design "solution" to a problem that was never there in the first place. To my eyes, that's as out of place in a "medieval" fantasy setting as an AK-47. would be.
The next thing is, even with the hideous oversized boxy construction, these things simply don't work. they're designed for gullible renfaire twits who think they're "scawttish" wearing their polyester kilt to wander around with a sword on their back and blue face paint like a fucking smurf. (I apologise for the language. No, fuckit, I dont apologise for the language, these gobshites are an affront to my nation.) - they still cant be drawn conveniently. they get in the way, you cant sheathe them easily, because you cant see where the tip is going.
They're don't work, because they're made by people who have never, once used them in reality. Medieval scabbards work, because they were the product of real-life experience, constant development and honing of the systems used over generations of use. These scabbards are akin to me, someone who's never flown an aircraft, designing a fighter jet. It wouldn't work, because I've not got the experience to know why the throttle should be in one place, or the fuel gauges in such-and-such a place.
Nowadays, we don't need to use such kit, its only ever going to be used to carry it around in a ren-fair. They're trying to invent a solution where none was ever needed
You have a big sword, it went on the horse. Or in a cart. simple as that. Because you didn't get people walking around for days on end, on foot. We domesticated the horse 5,000 years ago, it was ubiquitous. Every army in Europe would've had a baggage train for the transport of kit. You didn't traverse the country wearing full armour, carrying a spear, a pole-arm or a great-sword, plus your side-arm, your dagger, your purse, your food, your spare boots, your bedroll, your knife, your shaving kit, your rosary, your spade for digging the latrine, your firedog, your cooking-pot, the bricks for the oven to bake your bread, a dozen stakes for the palisade wall....
And so on. You stuck it in the baggage train. Or if you weren't in an army, you went on pilgrimage, you had a pony, it carried your stuff. You had to travel, you used carts, wagons, horses. Designing "solutions" like that scabbard is like designing a "solution" for the problem of every solder in Afghanistan being able to transport their personal M252 mortar up mountainsides, completely oblivious of the fact its stowed in the vehicles they get there in - not because of weight (a good 2h sword weighs less than 3kg, with a scabbard.), but simply because of the bulk. they take up a lot of space.
Lastly, I'm sceptical that you even NEED a back scabbard of any sort for most two-handers. I've used and worn plenty of swords in reenactment and living history. A two-handed sword might be 1m 50cm to 1m 70cm or so (60-70ish inches.). Only the truly massive, heaviest examples are bigger than that really. A longsword that can easily be carried on the hip, is 1m 30cm, with the tip 10 cm above the ground, and the pommel forward. adjust the strap lengths, modify the suspension system to pull the sword a little more horizontal, and I can see a 1m 50 twohander being possible to wear on the hip.
First off, these back scabbards are completely ahistorical. There is not one single reference I know of in the entire body of medieval art, depicting such a device. And I have a reference library for these sort of things in excess of 10,000 manuscript images, a few thousand effigies, hundreds of digitised books from all over the whole of Europe.
Not one reference to anything of the sort.
Technically, in terms of performance, they are utterly useless. A scabbard is designed for three uses - in order of priority:
1: to protect the sword from corrosion, by being exposed to the elements. In reality, a sword will spend vastly more of its life sheathed, than being used. The sword in that picture is a modern wall-hangar, a lump of corrosion-resistant stainless steel. Real swords are carbon steel, which corrodes rapidly - quite literally, leaving one out in the rain for an hour will leave it with marks on the blade. just one hour is all it takes.
2: to safely protect the blade - from accidental contact, (you don't want a sharp edge exposed anywhere its going to get caught, accidentally run fingers along edges, etc) and These exposed sheaths fail on both performance criteria of a scabbard.
3: it should assist transportation. This comes a distant third in importance.
the design fails utterly on the first 2, and #3 is only in the context of it being carried.
Its construction method is completely wrong. Chrome-tan leather, no wood, no linen, steel chromed buckles. these are not medieval materials, and it shows. Its an entirely modern design "solution" to a problem that was never there in the first place. To my eyes, that's as out of place in a "medieval" fantasy setting as an AK-47. would be.
The next thing is, even with the hideous oversized boxy construction, these things simply don't work. they're designed for gullible renfaire twits who think they're "scawttish" wearing their polyester kilt to wander around with a sword on their back and blue face paint like a fucking smurf. (I apologise for the language. No, fuckit, I dont apologise for the language, these gobshites are an affront to my nation.) - they still cant be drawn conveniently. they get in the way, you cant sheathe them easily, because you cant see where the tip is going.
They're don't work, because they're made by people who have never, once used them in reality. Medieval scabbards work, because they were the product of real-life experience, constant development and honing of the systems used over generations of use. These scabbards are akin to me, someone who's never flown an aircraft, designing a fighter jet. It wouldn't work, because I've not got the experience to know why the throttle should be in one place, or the fuel gauges in such-and-such a place.
Nowadays, we don't need to use such kit, its only ever going to be used to carry it around in a ren-fair. They're trying to invent a solution where none was ever needed
You have a big sword, it went on the horse. Or in a cart. simple as that. Because you didn't get people walking around for days on end, on foot. We domesticated the horse 5,000 years ago, it was ubiquitous. Every army in Europe would've had a baggage train for the transport of kit. You didn't traverse the country wearing full armour, carrying a spear, a pole-arm or a great-sword, plus your side-arm, your dagger, your purse, your food, your spare boots, your bedroll, your knife, your shaving kit, your rosary, your spade for digging the latrine, your firedog, your cooking-pot, the bricks for the oven to bake your bread, a dozen stakes for the palisade wall....
And so on. You stuck it in the baggage train. Or if you weren't in an army, you went on pilgrimage, you had a pony, it carried your stuff. You had to travel, you used carts, wagons, horses. Designing "solutions" like that scabbard is like designing a "solution" for the problem of every solder in Afghanistan being able to transport their personal M252 mortar up mountainsides, completely oblivious of the fact its stowed in the vehicles they get there in - not because of weight (a good 2h sword weighs less than 3kg, with a scabbard.), but simply because of the bulk. they take up a lot of space.
Lastly, I'm sceptical that you even NEED a back scabbard of any sort for most two-handers. I've used and worn plenty of swords in reenactment and living history. A two-handed sword might be 1m 50cm to 1m 70cm or so (60-70ish inches.). Only the truly massive, heaviest examples are bigger than that really. A longsword that can easily be carried on the hip, is 1m 30cm, with the tip 10 cm above the ground, and the pommel forward. adjust the strap lengths, modify the suspension system to pull the sword a little more horizontal, and I can see a 1m 50 twohander being possible to wear on the hip.
Anthony Obilor
Insider
And from a gameplay perspective? Im sorry if we decide to base it all on realism then I am sure we can find a thousand things to nitpick about not being fully realistic or authentic. the game simulates reality not replicates it. e.g. its unrealistic that the character can fit so much into....he has no backpack so where exactly does he put everything? It is unrealistic that the character can move objects from the floor to his inventory with his mind, why is there no pickup animation? It is unrealistic that there are lit up areas but no actual physical lightsource. The list can go on, but shooting down ideas simply because they are unrealistic from an expert point of view without bringing forth workarounds doesnt help us progress how to feasibly work it into the game.
And even then it isnt as simple as scabbard yay or nay, how would it work, how and where would it be equipped, what happens to the scabbard after you draw the weapon. You have stated based on history and reality, why such was not typical, I would not say there was never a way to carry a 2h sword except if you had a horse or cart. Its not how can we make reality into a game but how can we make a game more realistic.
Zotis
Member
NachoDawg
Member
a) not europeWhat about this:
b) i would assume that's not how you would run around in battle
But I think it's important that we remember this is a game. I absolutely think that we have been conditioned to suspend our belief for the sake dragons, undead and magic; but we are all struggle a lot more with believing in more tangible defiance of physics.
But seriously, that aside, games should be allowed to be a litle silly. (litteraly the best argument i have)
In this thread we've tried to draw a line between 1h swords and 2h swords and which should get to have a scabbard. But what about all the other things? Polearms, crossbows and throwing weapons.
I think we have to either agree that most weapons should have an on-character place, or none of them should. Cus it would be weaponist to exclude and prefer some weapons, and rob players that like the big weapons from this experience
Anthony Obilor
Insider
This is a quote I found on the last update of the game Clang
@NachoDawg I agree that if a weapon cannot be equipped on the character then it would be unfair to allow others to. 1h weapons arent a problem, the back and hips work very well for swords,maces, hammers, axes, the problem is 2handers. An idea for staff weapons is have it leaning on the shoulder when sheathed, "unsheathing" would involve an animation moving it from your shoulder to gripping it in both hands in a ready position. (I hope no one will now say, "but we should be able to swing right from the shoulder"). I think depending on the length on 2h swords some could have sheaths on back while others could use the polearm mechanic and lean on shoulder.
Remember this is first and foremost a game, and historical accuracy does not = fun. Reality should inspire games not define them.
@NachoDawg I agree that if a weapon cannot be equipped on the character then it would be unfair to allow others to. 1h weapons arent a problem, the back and hips work very well for swords,maces, hammers, axes, the problem is 2handers. An idea for staff weapons is have it leaning on the shoulder when sheathed, "unsheathing" would involve an animation moving it from your shoulder to gripping it in both hands in a ready position. (I hope no one will now say, "but we should be able to swing right from the shoulder"). I think depending on the length on 2h swords some could have sheaths on back while others could use the polearm mechanic and lean on shoulder.
J.G. Elmslie
Insider
You can carry them like that. you can carry any european sword slung over the shoulder too. there's nothing stopping you doing that.
but the relevant thing is, you cant draw the sword from the back. That's the bit that doesnt work.
unless, of course, you use daft, convoluted, and highly impractical things like that travesty in a kilt posted earlier, which are completely immersion-breaking, and pretty much the lowest common denominator of fantasy shite.
