Weapon sheath on the character?

[J.G. Elmslie]

This is a quote I found on the last update of the game Clang


Remember this is first and foremost a game, and historical accuracy does not = fun. Reality should inspire games not define them.

On the contrary, I am firmly of the opinion that history can be a shedload of fun, if its used right.

Now, that's not to say we should be utterly anally retentive about it. "oh no, in 1476 they didn't use steel rivets, they used wrought iron"... etc. of course not. its a fantasy game.

but this is a fantasy game based in real-world physics. and that means that real world physics solutions apply. you arms aren't an orang-utan's to pull a sword out from a back scabbard. you cant wield two great-swords of war at once.

I would like to see more reference to history - and as a historian, who once upon a time was a videogame artist, I'd actually like to see LESS reliance on history. less obviously western-Europe muddyevil sort-of 15th, maybe 16th, possibly 14th century all mashed together. I'd love to see stuff that's designed with an understanding of how real-life objects work, but with a unique cultural style that makes the setting itself, instead of generic stuff.

and that can mean going completely balls-out insane. have helms made from boar's teeth and body armour of whalebone or crocodile-skin, Tibetan lamellar armours and Indian gauntlet swords, have khopesh-like swords, and African throwing axes, Chinese repeating crossbows and Flemish plate armour - and none of those - instead having weapons with their own cultural style, that isn't a copy. And have the designs and performance all integrated so that they work in a plausible reality, that explains why there's such variation, rather than simply picking random objects like plate breastplates from the end of the 14th C, and plonking them context-free into the mess.

That. That is where history could be used to help create something that's truly spectacular.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

This looks interesting, it doesnt look like a modern sheath, though possibly it is modern due to today's man having more innovative sense than uneducated medieval men.

Also I read that, sheaths werent necessarily used to protect from the elements, grease was used for that. History proves this as most 2handers did not have sheaths, they were greased and wrapped, a whetstone used to clean off rust.

But we are trying to find viable and realistic enough ways to make sheathing work so here you are my pretties.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

@J.G. Elmslie I agree realism and authenticity shouldnt be thrown out especially in a physics based game like this, but authenticity may need to sometimes take a backseat so gameplay can become reality. The devs have taken European medieval style as a guidepoint as it is close to their vision, but that doesnt mean what was not a reality in our history cannot become a reality in their game. With the 1/3 sheath it is possible to have 2h on back, if not historically accurate. I know it irks you as someone well knowledged in such, but what are the downsides to it from a gameplay standpoint? I dont believe it would be immersion breaking, for you probably if you look at it based on our historical timeline, but for people less knowledged (myself included, I have done some small research though and found interestingly that back sheaths for 2handers werent a thing contrary to Hollywood and games) that 1/3 scabbard looks very authentic and by the laws of physics it does work.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

its exactly the same sheath as that worn by the be-cilted twit in Nachodawg's original post of this nonsense.

the same two pronged "hook" to hold the crossguard, the same baldric assembly for wearing over the body, etc.


These things are not "realistic enough". they are completely impractical.

and by the laws of physics it does work.

And by the laws of physics, a pogo-stick is a viable mode of transport.
As an Effective mode of transport, it sucks rancid monkey cock.

these things simply Do. Not. Work.

They're designed for renfair users who wander around with them for show.
they're not made to be used for active use, they are not efficient designs.

A scabbard at the hip for a sword is. that's why it was used for millennia.

 

[Zotis]

It's true what @J.G. Elmslie said about not being able to draw a weapon from the back. In other games that let you, you can see blade actually passing through the sheath in a graphically eronius manner.

But I want to be able to see it on my back when I'm not in battle. If I "draw" it, then it should just have a long animation that punishes me for drawing it in battle.

The all weapons in sheaths or no weapons in sheaths argument is completely moot btw guys. I'd rather have some then none.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Lastly, the simple fact is. What next?

Scabbards for halberds worn on the back?
Dual-wielded swords?
Armour with tits on it?

I am a historian, first and foremost, and yes, that does mean I have an insane amount of obscure knowledge about a subject most people don't really give a toss about. I could write 10 pages on how a 14th C sword is made. (How many people does it take to make one sword? One guy? nope. probably about 200, when you realise the supply chain that goes on to get one object made.), Or I could write for a week about the minute details of stepping cuts and the bind in German longsword of the Lichtenaur tradition in southern Germany in the 2nd half of the 15th C. Stuff no-one cares about.

But what that study does, is it makes it screamingly obvious when modern creations like these back scabbards (and many other things aside) are inserted into history. And this is one that's particularly jarring.

Ever watched the "history channel" show "Vikings"? Ok, its a train-wreck all over, but one bit that leaps out, kicks me in the teeth, and pisses gleefully over believability are the "Saxons".

- that's a Burgonet. Its a helmet worn, not in Saxon England, but in Spain and Germany, in the 16th century. It is closer in date to us today, than the Viking age of 790-800AD is to it.

It hits you like a hammer to the face, it didnt make me angry when I saw it, I fell about laughing. it tipped the tv series from crap, to comically bad.

That's the sort of "WTF is this shit?" that the back scabbards incite in anyone who has a modicum of understanding of what equipment was like in the general area of time that such weapons were being used. The worst bit is, if you ever try to draw a sword form the back, you discover how utterly impractical it is.... and at that point, you cant forget that fact. to use the internet meme; "what has been seen, cannot be un-seen". its like the drawing swords in film - once you know it cant be done, you start noticing the cut between takes, in virtually every single film that has such an action.

It completely breaks the immersion in the setting, as much as it would if you walked through the creepy dungeon environment, and there's a model of a laptop on one of the tables.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

@J.G. Elmslie Are you saying that a 2hander cannot be unsheathed from a 1/3 sheathe? I accept it is not historically accurate, but historical accuracy has little point here as Sui Generis is not based on our history. For me impractical means cannot work, it may not be efficient but I doubt it cannot work as you seem to emphasize. From my standpoint it looks like you simply do not like it because it is not historically accurate,not because it is impractical, no insult intended, but like I said I can understand why it irks you, but you still have not said why it cannot work from a gameplay point of view. It is physically plausible to draw a blade from that sheath; pull, tilt foward,then draw off shoulder. And like I mentioned, experts would find it "immersion-breaking" but more-so if they are comparing it to our own history. Most players would find it more immersive than not and that is a fact.

@Zotis I agree, without sheaths this game will lack immersion for me big time, I was just stating gameplay balancing. For me id doesnt matter if the weapon clips, already we can take a mace to the face and continue fighting like nada happened, I can scream this is unrealistic,I dont need to be an expert, but where do we draw the line on gameplay and realism? When does historical accuracy become more of a hindrance to functionality than actually helping it? This is why balance must be sought. It will never be 100% authentic because it is a game not a medieval simulator.

 

[Zotis]

Weapon sheathes are not so much taking away imersion by not having them as adding imersion by having them. Call me optamistic.

But I do feel @Anthony Obilor that you should give @J.G. Elmslie more credit. The game may be fantasy, but it's low fantasy. It may not be set in Europe, but it's still based on our history. Fantasy is based on reality. Maybe we should look at being able to see a two-handed weapon attatched to the horse's saddle or whatever they would do.

 

[Tony]

Another issue with having a sheath on your back is how are you supposed to use it to sheath a weapon? Randomly stab the sword at your back and hope you don't accidentally stab yourself while attempting to do so? That makes little sense to me and it sort of defeats the purpose of using a sheath in the first place (to quickly and easily holster your weapon).

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Weapon sheathes are not so much taking away imersion by not having them as adding imersion by having them. Call me optamistic.

But I do feel @Anthony Obilor that you should give @J.G. Elmslie more credit. The game may be fantasy, but it's low fantasy. It may not be set in Europe, but it's still based on our history. Fantasy is based on reality. Maybe we should look at being able to see a two-handed weapon attatched to the horse's saddle or whatever they would do.

I give Elmsie full credit as an expert, I didn't discount his facts I was merely trying to find how we could implement features. Also I disagree on your statement, I believe the game is inspired by our history and physical laws of nature but not based on them. Example if you could use thaumaturgy to levitate, that is nowhere based on historical accuracy. I am trying to find the sweet spot between realism and gameplay, if I focus solely on realism then it would be hard to impossible to create a game with today's technology. I also gave an example of clang who himself stated that he was confronted with limitation and focused too much on historical accuracy resulting in it not being fun.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

Another issue with having a sheath on your back is how are you supposed to use it to sheath a weapon? Randomly stab the sword at your back and hope you don't accidentally stab yourself while attempting to do so? That makes little sense to me and it sort of defeats the purpose of using a sheath in the first place (to quickly and easily holster your weapon).

This can be easily sorted by having a strict sheath and unsheath animation. We already have some it is just used procedurally. Also I would suggest as an idea that the character is only able to sheath from the idle position but can unsheath from any stance. The logic behind this is there is more chance for clipping issues when sheathing than u sheathing which would flow out easier.

Another idea I had is that your left hand would work as a funnel to guide your weapon tip into the scabbard.

 

[Tony]

This can be easily sorted by having a strict sheath and unsheath animation. We already have some it is just used procedurally. Also I would suggest as an idea that the character is only able to sheath from the idle position but can unsheath from any stance. The logic behind this is there is more chance for clipping issues when sheathing than u sheathing which would flow out easier.

You're missing the point, though. The devs want things to work in a believable fashion and have stated so numerous times. If they were to make an animation for sheathing a weapon that was stored on the back then the character would need to first remove the sheath from their back, slide the weapon into the sheath, and then once again reequip the sheath with the weapon in it.

The back sheath would function as more of a sling and not as a means to quickly draw a weapon during combat, or to store it afterwards, since doing so would require a significant amount of time (not a simple process). This basically makes it almost useless from a gameplay perspective.

 

[Anthony Obilor]

First off "The devs want things to work in a believable fashion and have stated so numerous times"
Believable does not mean reality. Its like our worlds magicians, they do things that make you believe it is magic, that is the beauty of a game, if done right it can make anything virtually believable. If their use of the word believable meant real then there are a lot of other places where the use of gameplay mechanics would be subject to debate on how realistic it is.

I rewrote this post numerous times, I decided I really want to be positive about this game. I want this to be the best and most immersive experience I've ever had in a game ever!, but it is like the community are thinking so competitively on whose idea is best. I see so many like minded people with me here, I see people with more expertise and knowledge on the choice of mechanics used for combat. It excites us all!!! And I am sure all of you in this thread want sheaths, what we are looking for is suggestions and ideas of how we can beliveably, immersively, and gameplay worthily (<-is that a word???) make the mechanics. What I see is shooting down of ideas and suggestions, if you have the knowledge and expertise, please I beg you help, dont always say "this is wrong dawwwg" say, "hmmm thats interesting control idea but it is wrong to sheath this way, instead......". I am still waiting to hear good ideas and suggestions not just why it cant be done but also how it can be done so as to be believeable.

I really love this game and I have always promoted it and defended it bitterly (most can attest to that), but I just decided I want to come at this with positivity, I am a 1h sword user exclusively. I am simply trying to think of ideas as we all should of how to make the look and play better with features that we all want. Stop saying it cant and start saying this is how.

 

[NachoDawg]

An intresting video for all of us caring about the subject =P


also, everything Anthony Obilor said: yes.

 

[NachoDawg]

Lastly, the simple fact is. What next?

Scabbards for halberds worn on the back?
Dual-wielded swords?
Armour with tits on it?

Dual-wielded swords was shown in one of the Sui Generis kick starter videos, and armor with tits... is basicly a given. I'm not sure you have actually seen the high-fantasy armors they have drawn up?

I might be pro "some solution for 2hander on backs", but I'm pretty sure we'll agree the armors in the KS are ridiculous. I dont know if they're placeholders or examples of the style they are going for, but back mounted zweihander-scabbards shouldnt be your highest concern =P

 

[Pilluminati]

First off "The devs want things to work in a believable fashion and have stated so numerous times"
Believable does not mean reality. Its like our worlds magicians, they do things that make you believe it is magic, that is the beauty of a game, if done right it can make anything virtually believable. If their use of the word believable meant real then there are a lot of other places where the use of gameplay mechanics would be subject to debate on how realistic it is.

I rewrote this post numerous times, I decided I really want to be positive about this game. I want this to be the best and most immersive experience I've ever had in a game ever!, but it is like the community are thinking so competitively on whose idea is best. I see so many like minded people with me here, I see people with more expertise and knowledge on the choice of mechanics used for combat. It excites us all!!! And I am sure all of you in this thread want sheaths, what we are looking for is suggestions and ideas of how we can beliveably, immersively, and gameplay worthily (<-is that a word???) make the mechanics. What I see is shooting down of ideas and suggestions, if you have the knowledge and expertise, please I beg you help, dont always say "this is wrong dawwwg" say, "hmmm thats interesting control idea but it is wrong to sheath this way, instead......". I am still waiting to hear good ideas and suggestions not just why it cant be done but also how it can be done so as to be believeable.

I really love this game and I have always promoted it and defended it bitterly (most can attest to that), but I just decided I want to come at this with positivity, I am a 1h sword user exclusively. I am simply trying to think of ideas as we all should of how to make the look and play better with features that we all want. Stop saying it cant and start saying this is how.

I agree that ideas are shot down too often without people looking for alternative ways or even small tweaks that could be made to make it work. Almost as if they had no imagination or just refuse to do it. I think the word believable means more than: "There's magic so it works" though. If you decide something works CUS MAGIC you need to consider the other implications this would have on the world. I haven't really followed the discussion on the sheathing but I think making animations for something carried on the back would be a pain to make. Remember that there's so many weapons and this would have to be fine tuned for each and would not even work on some so it's a lot of effort for little gain. I think it would have to be a solution that worked for every weapon with relatively little effort from the devs to make it worthwhile.

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Are you saying that a 2hander cannot be unsheathed from a 1/3 sheathe?

I'm saying that a 1/3rd sheath like that is going to fall apart, the design is not even remotely close to the simple durability of a wood and leather one-piece scabbard.

Its going to get rainwater running down the blade (especially a fullered blade) and collecting in the bottom of the sheath, damaging the blade. As it would be medieval leather, it would have to be vegetanned leather, not a chrome-tan - an entirely modern process. That contains tannins, which will chemically react with iron/steel, making the blade get stained black in areas it touched. if the leather's wet, it will corrode the steel significantly; active rusting. If the weather wet it will also deform and warp, because there's no underlying structure to it, like a proper scabbard.

Because its an all-leather construction, there's no support for the bottom of the sheath, meaning when its drawn, it flops all over the place. Due to the length, that's going to end up tangling between the user's legs, getting in the way. That's a common problem that reenactors who use soft leather sheaths, instead of rigid wooden-cored scabbards, by the way. And that's very much also something you really don't want in a real fight when your life's at stake. You also dont want something that's attached over your shoulder with great big hooks on it that are screaming "use me as a grappling point" to your opponent, who can use the stuff you're wearing to your disadvantage.

Then there's the whole space issue. to draw over the shoulder means you're going to have to turn the blade at shoulder height. lets say for simplicity, you're 1m 80, and the sword blade is 1.10m long, with a 40cm hilt Well, I just did a quick check with a 14th C longsword that's got a 97cm blade... and I hit the 2.5m high ceiling. If you're in a rush, you need to easily have a 3m ceiling height to practically draw over the shoulder (plus a metre of clear space behind you), or you're going to be hitting the roof. Now ingame we might not have a ceiling, but I cant really envisage the gloomy dungeons of SG and Exanima are blessed with high, bright airy ceilings in every corridor...
Outdoors it would be fine. But guess what? Outdoors, you can use a normal scabbard, and carry it on your horse.



When drawn, it will also lose rigidity, meaning it makes it utterly impractical to sheath. Unless you're wanting to play "stab myself in the back of the leg" while poking around blindly like a drunken virgin, you're left having to unstrap the thing, turn it round so its facing your front, use both hands, one holding your sword, the other the scabbard and thread the tip into the gap for the bottom part of the sheath, then line up the top, notch it over these two oversized hooks, and secure it. then take the assembly, sling it over the shoulder, and tighten up the baldric so you dont have it slip.

Or... you just prop it on your shoulder. Hmm. I wonder which is more practical?

And, all, meanwhile, while the contraption fails to provide any actual protection for the edge of the weapon, or protection from the elements - the two most important elements of the purpose of a scabbard. In this regard, its about as much use as a chocolate teapot.

That's what I mean that it wont work.

Equipment is designed to perform certain tasks. the criteria of performance. An F1 car goes fast. an arming sword is an excellent weapon for defence, a helmet deflects blows. And a scabbard covers the blade, and protects it while not in use.

stick tractor tyres on a f1 car, and it doesn't go fast, it fails its criteria, it gets scrapped. Put a massive "final fantasy" blade on the arming sword, its no longer agile for rapid movement, it fails its criteria. The user dies, the weapon gets scrapped. Stick horns on a helmet, and the blow that would be deflected instead gets hooked, and transfers all the force into the guy's head. it fails the criteria, the guy dies. Horns on helmets are only used on parade, show helmets from then on.

And the same with this design. it fails the essential criteria of its purpose. its as simple as that.

It works fine for someone prancing around a Renfair. But that's a weekend of fun carrying a shiny toy prop. its as far removed from the reality of medieval warfare, as playing "call of duty" is to being stuck in a warzone in the Ukraine while being showered with body parts from your comrades-in-arms who just got hit by a mortar.


---


Incidentally, the whole practicality of large weapons stowed on the user's back is also the reason I dislike archery with arrows on the back - all the same problems.



---

Now. Gameplay.
How an object works, from a gameplay point of view is something entirely different. Physical reality, and gameplay reality are not the same thing.

So the question there must be: "what game-play elements does the sheathing and unsheathing of swords confer to a player during play?" Further to that: "what unique elements will the sheathing of a two-handed sword confer?"

Well, here we reach the problem. Sheathing, or making safe a weapon has no gameplay benefit currently. We are, therefore talking about entirely hypothetical added features. Accepting that problem, we can conclude that this action can be designed to have in-game benefits;

1. social interaction with NPCs in both positive and negative manners.
2. possibly ease of access for a weapon through a quick-select interface,
3. visual immersion during the toggling of combat mode.

#3, Visual immersion is the easiest one. you see the player draw a sword (undoubtedly accompanied by the rasp of metal on metal that real medieval scabbards dont have...), its a visual metaphor for "the fight begins". Action drama, etc. But that does not need to be a scabbard. there are more than swords, after all. A 1h war-hammer or mace does not have a scabbard. Nor does a lucerne hammer. or a crossbow. Or a plank witha nail in it. Only a sword has a scabbard, and not all swords have scabbards. Of these, only the very largest 2h sword would even have need of a scabbard on the back - a 1m 30cm two-handed longsword comfortably sits on the hip.

Therefore we can conclude: if hammers, crossbows, polearms and wooden planks do not need a scabbard, then a scabbard itself is not an integral part of the sheathing and unsheathing gameplay mechanic. Therefore, the gameplay mechanic is not Sheathing and unsheathing. The gameplay mechanic is the transfer between an active state (weapon readied), and a passive state (weapon put away.). The use of a sword on back or not on the back is irrelevant to gameplay for point 3.

#1 is the most obvious application for future use, and also the one least used for Exanima. From the determining of the purpose and the differentiation from point #3, we can again note that the scabbard is of limited use, other weapons remain in the game. Therefore, when we look at the social interaction, we must conclude that all equipment must possess a passive state. The single-handed sword is sheathed. but is the crossbow is held by its stirrup? does the character's stance shift, to lean nonchalantly against his pollaxe? does the player hook their mace onto the belt? In the same way, a relaxed pose with a two-handed sword, the player leaning on the point, arms draped over the cross-arms, or point up, over the shoulder, is as viable as a passive stance during social interaction stages. Again, gameplay is not in any form defined by if the 2h sword is sheathed or not.

#2 is the most complex, and that requires a huge amount of work on the UI in general. I'm honestly not sure what the logical answers and gameplay elements there are - it would require a much more wide-ranging consideration of the entire inventory system, than just the concern of sheathing and unsheathing. I dont feel that this is the thread for that discussion, but my recent post in the Feedback forum:

http://www.baremettle.com/forums/index.php?threads/observations-from-demo-areas-that-could-be-improved.2236/

has a number of points ( #3 and #3b), that I hope best touch on some of the thoughts I've had over the Inventory system, which would best be addressed in a much more comprehensive, and integrated design solution which benefits gameplay as a whole, rather than a single gameplay element of ease of access.


Therefore in conclusion, I would strongly disagree that there is any logical grounds on which a 2h sword's sheathing or unsheathing makes any difference to gameplay, over any other weapon. Therefore, any design decisions made should be integrated to all weapons, not just those specifically edged and oversized.

Which leaves only one element for the inclusion of back scabbards the likes of which we've seen: aesthetics. That's all down to personal opinion. And opinions are like arseholes, most are full of shit. I've given my reasons, for the realism of the tangible, physical world the game is set in, to determine the practicality of weapons and equipment. In this, the back scabbards fail miserably to perform effectively. Does that outweigh any sort of "cool" element of a sword on the back that is suspended from an outlandish contraption? Personally, I say no, for the reasons given.

That's my case for why they should'nt be in there. Apologies for it having to stretch to Ohgod how many words?

 

[J.G. Elmslie]

Dual-wielded swords was shown in one of the Sui Generis kick starter videos, and armor with tits... is basicly a given. I'm not sure you have actually seen the high-fantasy armors they have drawn up?

I might be pro "some solution for 2hander on backs", but I'm pretty sure we'll agree the armors in the KS are ridiculous. I dont know if they're placeholders or examples of the style they are going for, but back mounted zweihander-scabbards shouldnt be your highest concern =P

Despite my History Nazi inclinations (Nein! Velvet?! there is no source for silk! That would be linen! To the Gas Chambers with you!), I'm not particularly fussed with dual wielding. Its as dumb as a bag of spanners, but, eh, people like it. As long as its two one-handed weapons, and ideally, as long as the #2 weapon is smaller than the first (ie, sidesword and dagger, bastard sword and a mace.), and ideally both get some penalty, which reduces their effectiveness, but is balanced out by having the second one there too, I'm fine with it. Its only if its dual wielding 2h swords or poleaxes or something daft like that I'll be inclined to get my radge up.

For the fantasy armours, I'd done my best to ignore 'em. They suck rancid monkey cock. They're tired, generic, utterly uninteresting designs, and that's before you even look at the faults. I'd like to hope that elric's been poking them in the eye enough about those that they've started to learn that realistic styles can be far cooler than twiddly fantasy shite.
And if not, well, I'll just have to start pulling out the really mental real stuff that is spectacular, utterly outlandish, but which also works. And do the long essays about the whole issue of technology and the medieval arms race (AKA, "Why dont vikings have plate armour, why dont you get renaissance 'broad swords' *" ) to actually educate them about what's going on.



* I hate the phrase 'broad sword', but "Wheeler Typology Saxon Spatha" hardly trips off the tongue, does it?

 

[Tovias]

I think it would be the best for polearms and two handed weapons to be carried on the shoulder like they are now, while moving can be troublesome in thigh places, that could work as counter for maining two handed, which in my opinion are pretty OP.

 

[NachoDawg]

@J.G. Elmslie , great 'article' you wrote, i did enjoy reading it.

I just wanted to pose that passively carrying the 2hander and (all impracticality aside) having it in a scabbard is not the same thing game play wise. The difference is that with the sword put away, you have your hands free. There's not a lot of reasons that would be practical yet, but they are going to implement horse riding, so galloping with a big sword in one hand might seem weird. And maybe we need hands to pull and push heavy things we can move with the mouse in the future. Maybe some thaum-magic needs two hands? So just holding it hover the shoulder doesn't make for an equal mechanic

sorry if we all feel that the discussion is mostly over, I just wanted to mention that =P