Why I haven't backed Sui Generis (yet)

[JtW]

This is my first post here, and probably the only one until I decide to actually pay for SG. So welcome everyone.

I would like to start with an admission: when I found Sui Generis (via mindless Greenlight browsing), it was love at first sight. I went straight over to the Kickstarter video and thought "These guys get it. This is how cRPGs should be done." The Kickstarter was already over, but I found this forum and discovered I can still back this project. And as much as I love the concept behind Sui Generis, I haven't. Here's why.

To put it succinctly, I don't want to be disappointed. As Maddoc laid out in a post yesterday, the project is extremely ambitious and can turn out in unexpected ways. And I am afraid it simply won't deliver. To give an example, I love the idea of non-scripted NPCs dynamically reacting to the situation. It's one of the selling points for me - but nobody has really managed to do this before. I hope Bare Mettle will, but it is really difficult. So this is one thing: fear of poor return on my investment. But I could probably go past it. I mean: I have found people who want to do something awesome, and I want it to happen. I might take the risk.

But then there is the other thing: the dead forum. Unfortunately, the dialogue between the backers and the developers seems to be pretty nonexistent. I've been following these forums for a few weeks, and there is almost no news. There are promises of news... and then no news. And the few existing videos are for insiders only. As a result, my excitement has turned into delusion. I don't feel confident funding people who don't care about me as a customer. And this is the feeling I am getting here: I have no doubt Bare Mettle is passionate about the game, but are we anything more than the necessary evil to the end goal? (i.e. funding sources that demand news and drag you away from the development).

So here you go. I guess I am posting this because I am sure I am not alone in this position. I would love to see this project succeed, and I will probably back it once the alpha is out, if the reviews here are positive. But I feel that Bare Mettle is losing potential fan base and money by shutting backers and potential backers out. It can feel counterproductive to post in the forum when you can keep developing the game, but here is my question to you: are you making this game for us, or are we just a necessary annoyance? I'm sincerely curious.

 

[Komuflage]

This project is extremely ambitious, and honestly, I don't think they can deliver on all of these amazing ideas. But so few developers even try making something like this today. And just the fact that they at least stand out from the crowd and try is enough for me to back them.
And honestly even if this will have standard quest and generic story, the amazing (which they've shown) combat system will be enough for me to get my moneys worth.

It's true that the communication between devs and backers is below standard. (comparing to other project)
But they're are still making the core components for the game. As soon as Alpha starts I'm quite sure the communications will go up.

Now I can't answer if they're making the game for us or them. But from how I understand it, they're making the game for them self, the game they want to play. Which imho actually is a good thing. So many devs make casual games to lure in the huge crowd these days, It's nice to see that at least a few devs, care more about their game than the $.

 

[DetonatorLoki]

I'm an insider who backed with £40 but apparently I don't even get access to the videos either. The last video I saw for this game that I've already paid for was back in February.

People I know who have backed this have completely forgotten it exists due to the absolute lack of anything for people in a certain backers bracket.

I personally given the choice wouldn't back the game. Wait till it's released or (god forbid) they release a video closer to release.

 

[ZaratanCho]

Even if it isn't exaclty what was aimed for (on release) it will still be a great game and a game better than most, so a don't see how it will be a poor investment. If there are better rpgs of this type, sure. I also have high expectations , but accept that some things may not be so groundbraking and what not, but we will see. This is crowdfunding you put your money in with hope and thrust the game(some) may end up not being released at all. I believe(know) Bare mettle's dedication and desire to make this project succeed. And of course they are not making this game just for us, of course it is personal and that makes it good. Just like any artist should be happy with others enjoying his work they will be glad that we love their work and acknowledge them. As far as news and such go as i see it, even though i want news and updates, at this point this is how things stand and it is understandable. Some companies make full on campaigns and everything to get as much people and backers as humanly possible interested in their game, and I don't really like this too much. At the end of the day the most important thing is the game and as things progress more information will be good for release and people will take notice. Though there are a few good posts from Madoc and others about these things that explain some things quite well. You want them to release all kinds of things that are simply aimed at almost tricking(fancy screens,awesome concept art and what not) you into backing like alot of other projects, you want to feel convinced, but until release alot can happen. Crowdfunding is a big deal of thrust even though this project looks very promising and I am convinced the game without a doubt will come. There is time for more publicity yet come. Even I that have no money backed it because of how i feel for the project, and i backed it thinking i may not even play it, even when it is released. So it is what it is everyone decides wheter to back or not on there own view. ;D

 

[DetonatorLoki]

They are shooting for a mid 2014 release and we've yet to see anything outside of a tech reel. I backed this game in November and so far I've seen one video 10 months a go.

Crowd funding has become an absolute joke. 90% of games funded have been an absolute let down save for a few. I've backed around 10 games and the majority of them are not fit for release.

I want to be as optimistic as possible about this game but when the devs won't even give half their backers let alone the public any media that to me says something isn't right.

Have you ever invested in something and then not been kept in the loop as to what is going on? I know I haven't. And if hosting the videos is such a burden then put them on Youtube with private links, this is 2013 and segregating your INVESTORS is a joke.

 

[Komuflage]

text

May I just ask what type of content you want BM to show of at this stage? The game is still in early development.
Most games that show of something very early, spends a lot of time to perfect the part they want to show. A lot of devs even do this for their betas.
Beta testing a MMO, where the starting zones are extremely well done. But finding out after release that the rest of the game is buggy as hell is not that uncommon. GW2 being a recent example.

Personally I've even backed some games which I don't follow at all. I just believe in the end product, but understands that the dev need the money right away.
Godus.
A hat in time.
Cubeworld.
As a few examples.

 

[Empire²]

Welcome!

After having read your post, I feel like you looked over a few very essential aspects of this that could both add on to and go against how you feel.

Sui Generis is a revolutionary game in concept. It's more dynamic than anything that's ever been made, the world is expansive and immersive and the combat is gritty, chaotic and has a lot of impact. It's a game in a style and genre combination that, unfortunately, has a very small audience compared to some of the "big names" in the industry.

Bare Mettle are constantly striving to innovate, sacrificing not a single bit of the enjoyment value of the game for something new and fresh. However, they don't have a multi-million dollar budget, they can't rely on their week 1 sales to go through the roof and they don't have massive marketing campaigns that get people preordering the game by the masses. They have to live and work off of not only the money they earned through Kickstarter and the people backing the game on the website, but also that out of their own pockets. Because of that fact, they simply can't afford to simultaneously work on the game and extensively present new features. They cannot provide us with weekly development videos or even playable versions of the game, because every single hand is needed in the core development.

For a game like Sui Generis, with a developer like BM, it's a sink-or-swim situation. They have invested so much time, effort and resources into development that even the slightest of decreases in funds mean a lot to not only the development of the game, but also the day to day lives of the people working on it. Perhaps they won't get as much money as they need for the maintenance and development of the game right now, and they have to take jobs on the side to be able to afford their office space and bills. All of that slows down the game development significantly, and only makes the chance of SG ever being released smaller. Every step they stray from the path of development is a risk at this point, which both they and we wouldn't dare take.

Because of that, Bare Mettle keep hammering at the development of the game, working long days to ensure that they will have something to show for all their hard work and perseverance. I feel like lately, there has been a lot stirring in the community about people looking towards Bare Mettle and the game and feeling like they don't get/aren't going to get what they paid for/were going to pay for. The cold, hard truth of it is that we can't have both regular updates and in-depth conversation with the devs, as well as a good game to show for all of that. I thoroughly appreciate every single paragraph of explanation that is given to us on the forums here by the devs, but to be perfectly honest, I would rather not hear anything from them for 2 months straight and come back having not only finished the mechanics of the game, but also have evidence that, without words, evidently showcases the blood, sweat and tears they have put in over those months.

A lot of people have their doubts about Bare Mettle and the development, me included sometimes, but the more you want, the less you'll get. Let them work their wizardry, and, in their own time, we will get to witness the full potential of Sui Generis for ourselves.

 

[DetonatorLoki]

May I just ask what type of content you want BM to show of at this stage? The game is still in early development.
Most games that show of something very early, spends a lot of time to perfect the part they want to show. A lot of devs even do this for their betas.
Beta testing a MMO, where the starting zones are extremely well done. But finding out after release that the rest of the game is buggy as hell is not that uncommon. GW2 being a recent example.

Personally I've even backed some games which I don't follow at all. I just believe in the end product, but understands that the dev need the money right away.
Godus.
A hat in time.
Cubeworld.
As a few examples.

Hate to burst your bubble but the dev of Cubworld took all the preorder and alpha money and has stopped making the game.

This game was announced a year a go. They have stated they want to release in mid 2014. That is around 9 months a way. They honestly don't have enough to show people when how are certain backers getting access to videos?

Guild Wars 2 wasn't buggy at release. It lacked some end game but your point is totally irrelevant because this isn't an MMO and I've already paid for this game.

It's almost like they pay you to post Komuflage.

And they definitely pay Empire 2 to post, that's so full of PR..

 

[Komuflage]

Hate to burst your bubble but the dev of Cubworld took all the preorder and alpha money and has stopped making the game.

This game was announced a year a go. They have stated they want to release in mid 2014. That is around 9 months a way. They honestly don't have enough to show people when how are certain backers getting access to videos?

Guild Wars 2 wasn't buggy at release. It lacked some end game but your point is totally irrelevant because this isn't an MMO and I've already paid for this game.

It's almost like they pay you to post Komuflage.

And they definitely pay Empire 2 to post, that's so full of PR..

Again, why most games can show of "perfect" gameplay early on is because the work to finish the part they want to show, while the rest of the game is still incomplete. GW example again.

Guildwars 2 was extremely buggy at release, dungeons broke completely, most events broke. you "couldn't" play with mates (getting a 5man party on the same Overflow was almost impossible) Orr was a mess.
There were lots of end game content, (Spvp, wvw, dungeons, Orr) it was just all broken.
I had already payed for the game as well. 5-6 months before release. Same thing with Arma3, and loads of other games.

Honestly, do you think they have enough money to pay anyone to write PR comments?

 

[Empire²]

Hate to burst your bubble but the dev of Cubworld took all the preorder and alpha money and has stopped making the game.

This game was announced a year a go. They have stated they want to release in mid 2014. That is around 9 months a way. They honestly don't have enough to show people when how are certain backers getting access to videos?

Guild Wars 2 wasn't buggy at release. It lacked some end game but your point is totally irrelevant because this isn't an MMO and I've already paid for this game.

It's almost like they pay you to post Komuflage.

And they definitely pay Empire 2 to post, that's so full of PR..

If your only rebuttal to solid arguments is "you must be paid to post", then I have some bad news for you.

You are the type of person that causes delays in development and doubts among game devs. What you have is that exact kind of attitude that makes developers look at your post and wonder whether they should be doing what they're doing. Take an example out of Phil Fish, the developer of FEZ. He cancelled FEZ 2 because of mindless criticism like yours, blurted out without any thought given to it beforehand. You've shown zero faith in the company so far, and all you've done here is blatantly, and invalidly I might add, shot down not only the devs but the support given to them. If you are only here to be skeptical and cynical, let me tell you: It is not both unappreciated and unhelpful.

 

[JtW]

For a game like Sui Generis, with a developer like BM, it's a sink-or-swim situation. They have invested so much time, effort and resources into development that even the slightest of decreases in funds mean a lot to not only the development of the game, but also the day to day lives of the people working on it. Perhaps they won't get as much money as they need for the maintenance and development of the game right now, and they have to take jobs on the side to be able to afford their office space and bills. All of that slows down the game development significantly, and only makes the chance of SG ever being released smaller. Every step they stray from the path of development is a risk at this point, which both they and we wouldn't dare take.

This is exactly why I have posted. I know how tough it can be for them. But I feel that their silence and their policy towards their backers is going against them. It has in my case, and I can already see the bitterness arising among the backers, as well (see DetonatorLoki's posts).

I am not asking for weekly videos. I know how much effort is needed to do such a thing. I am asking for reaching out to fans and, as DetonatorLoki put it, investors, in a way that makes sense. Check out the Dev Diaries of Europa Universalis IV as an example. I'd never played any Paradox' games before I stumbled upon these. A screenshot here and there, explanation of what they are working on and why... They hooked me and I preordered the game.

What's stopping Bare Mettle from doing something similar? A weekly post with their current development or whatever. It's really not much and it would go miles towards satisfied backers and would make me (and probably others) more confident in parting with our money.

 

[DetonatorLoki]

I'm sorry but Phil Fish is a total dickhead & has nothing to do with this.

You wrote your post out like a piece of North Korean propaganda, what do you expect? It looks so forced and fake.

i've shown zero faith? I fronted £40 on an idea, that's about as much faith as I'm willing to show with crowd funding. My criticism is blurted out? That's absolute bollocks, I said being shown nothing after already buying into something is wrong and apparently that's just mindless drivel? Please guys, stop fanboy'ing so hard.

I have every right to voice my concerns over this. I paid into it just like anyone else so you have no right to say which opinions are valid and which aren't.

I want to have the same access as people who fronted LESS money then me. How the hell is that unfair?

 

[Empire²]

This is exactly why I have posted. I know how tough it can be for them. But I feel that their silence and their policy towards their backers is going against them. It has in my case, and I can already see the bitterness arising among the backers, as well (see DetonatorLoki's posts).

I am not asking for weekly videos. I know how much effort is needed to do such a thing. I am asking for reaching out to fans and, as DetonatorLoki put it, investors, in a way that makes sense. Check out the Dev Diaries of Europa Universalis IV as an example. I'd never played any Paradox' games before I stumbled upon these. A screenshot here and there, explanation of what they are working on and why... They hooked me and I preordered the game.

What's stopping Bare Mettle from doing something similar? A weekly post with their current development or whatever. It's really not much and it would go miles towards satisfied backers and would make me (and probably others) more confident in parting with our money.

Again though, Paradox is a lot bigger and houses way more employees.

I agree with you that releasing more video content will stimulate people to back the game, however, it only starts going against them when people become (partially self-) entitled. I have the highest tier of donation for no other reason than my complete faith for this to become what we all want it to. Even if they promised me weekly dev videos for the tier I paid for, who am I to complain about the lack of them? I think we should all be just a bit more humble about it. Paving the way for what could potentially be the next standard for RPGs is tough, and I think adding extra pressure to them is not really a good thing.

I want to thank you for your reply though. I said some things which, looking back, may have appeared insulting or cynical about what you said. That's not the way I meant anything, and I'm glad you're all for civilised discussion!

The one thing we can raise our pitchforks and light our torches for in my opinion are camel physics.

 

[Empire²]

I'm sorry but Phil Fish is a total dickhead & has nothing to do with this.

You wrote your post out like a piece of North Korean propaganda, what do you expect? It looks so forced and fake.

i've shown zero faith? I fronted £40 on an idea, that's about as much faith as I'm willing to show with crowd funding. My criticism is blurted out? That's absolute bollocks, I said being shown nothing after already buying into something is wrong and apparently that's just mindless drivel? Please guys, stop fanboy'ing so hard.

I have every right to voice my concerns over this. I paid into it just like anyone else so you have no right to say which opinions are valid and which aren't.

I want to have the same access as people who fronted LESS money then me. How the hell is that unfair?

Like I said in my reply to JtW, people have become entitled. I wrote my post out the way it is, because that's the truth of it. You can try and nullify my arguments by relating them to real-world events all you want, but what I said is more true than all the "But"s and "If"s you can find.

But it's not about any of this. I don't get why people are demanding content from the developers, perhaps I never will. You clearly don't understand the message I was trying to convey, and instead of showing that you want this community to be a big blur of "You can do it BM!", you take your cynicism out on someone that had nothing to say against you.

Maybe it IS unfair that you don't get what you want. Perhaps they DID promise things that they may actually not be able to make true. But demanding what you have been promised and more, and more importantly, shoving it in their faces just as much as ours, is not supportive in the slightest.

No harsh feelings against anything you said, honestly. If you see things the way you do, that's fine. But don't criticise me for the way I see things and please, for the sake of all of us, don't injustifiably crucify developers for their mistakes when they have enough to deal with. Being divided as a community will do nothing good for SG, neither will demanding things they cannot deliver. The only things that can make this go as smoothly as possible are positive input and encouragement.

EDIT: also, SFDP

 

[DetonatorLoki]

You fronted over £2000 on an idea that you will see zero return on financially? Please never work in finance.

Also, you are 16 apparently so you are either involved with BM somehow or your parents paid for you in which case it might as well have been £1 when you clearly don't know the actual value of money.

You totally overlooked what I posted because I am entitled to my opinion if you like it or not. It doesn't matter that you "Donated to The highest Tier" I posted looking for an actual answer from the devs themselves NOT their fan club. To state people are becoming "entitled" is a total lie also, read ahead for enlightenment:

• Why do people on lower tiers get access to videos when people on the £40 don't?
• Why has there been absolutely no media released when the game is 7 months from release?

If bandwidth is such a burden why not host the video on Youtube and give people the link through E-mail and have the video unlisted? You are literally segregating your backers for absolutely no reason because it is of zero cost to yourselves (Could even make revenue through Youtube)

Now if the zealots could back off for 5 minutes I'd like a response.

 

[Madoc]

Our backers are invaluable, they are a big part of what motivates us to work really hard and keep us focused. It's not easy to continuously put a lot of effort into something unless you know someone cares. It's a huge driving force and although we struggle to provide our backers with appropriate material to chew on it's always very rewarding for us when we do. Seriously, we couldn't do it without you guys.

It's understandable people push for more. It is not annoying, the people who genuinely take interest in the project are very reasonable and just generally pleasant. They understand how limited our resources are and are able to put things into the proper perspective.

We are reasonably active on the forums but most of it ends up in the insider forum. It's a good place for us to talk because it is in fact private, we don't need to worry about the general public. It's not marketing material we're posting, it's stuff we share with our backers without having to sweat over presentation and misinterpretation. Interfacing with the public takes far more time and effort than you might imagine, look at our team and most importantly look at our project before comparing it to another. Think about what it might actually take to explain what you're doing to the public in a compelling way. Really, think about it, this is has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with posting about your day on facebook.

Regardless of anything else, we have only the very best intentions. We absolutely care about our "customers", not just their custom. There's a very important distinction to be made there.

A video is on its way, we're doing our best. This game and the engine are a work in progress, most of the time it is barely functional and we need to complete things before we can record game foootage.

@DetonatorLoki
I don't understand the question about the £40 reward tier, that is for alpha and beta access and an additional copy of the game. The £30 tier includes none of those things.

 

[Empire²]

Haha, let's make this perfectly clear. I donated on the website, not the kickstarter itself. That's $60, not $2000. Also, is it really necessary to drag age into this? If so, you might as well inquire about my life story, since you've no right to make presumptions about anyone based on their age.

I never said you aren't entitled to your own opinion. In fact, in my last post, I stated quite the opposite. What I mean is you're forcing your partially self-entitlement to videos and other content upon the developers, which in my eyes, and as I'm sure those of others on here too, causes nothing but harm. I understand you paid for something which you do not have. I have the same thing. I, however, choose to be grateful for what I have been given, rather than try to get some kind of confession out of a group of game developers. You're turning this into some sort of noir film interrogation, which it never needed to be.

I genuinely am sad that you seemingly have that typical pseudo-superiority virus that has apparently taken over the internet. Just because I am content with what they've given us and you are not, I am a zealous fanboy, paid by BM to make a shrine in my closet, and you are completely sober and fully and deservingly in the right? Please, try to reason with yourself here.

We both deserve the videos we paid for, and we aren't getting them. Is that because Bare Mettle is trying to make a run for it with our hard-earned money? No, of course not. They simply prefer spending their time on the actual development rather than interaction with the community and, yes, providing some of us with the corresponding content we paid for. But trying to get answers out of this is not going to solve anything.

What is it you want out of this? "Sorry for promising videos and not delivering, it won't happen again!"? That's been said by the devs countless times, with good explanation of why they aren't ready/comfortable releasing anything.

I honsetly do not understand why you're aiming for me here. Trying to degrade other people won't exactly help you in getting an answer out of the developers.

 

[DetonatorLoki]

Our backers are invaluable, they are a big part of what motivates us to work really hard and keep us focused. It's not easy to continuously put a lot of effort into something unless you know someone cares. It's a huge driving force and although we struggle to provide our backers with appropriate material to chew on it's always very rewarding for us when we do. Seriously, we couldn't do it without you guys.

It's understandable people push for more. It is not annoying, the people who genuinely take interest in the project are very reasonable and just generally pleasant. They understand how limited our resources are and are able to put things into the proper perspective.

We are reasonably active on the forums but most of it ends up in the insider forum. It's a good place for us to talk because it is in fact private, we don't need to worry about the general public. It's not marketing material we're posting, it's stuff we share with our backers without having to sweat over presentation and misinterpretation. Interfacing with the public takes far more time and effort than you might imagine, look at our team and most importantly look at our project before comparing it to another. Think about what it might actually take to explain what you're doing to the public in a compelling way. Really, think about it, this is has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with posting about your day on facebook.

Regardless of anything else, we have only the very best intentions. We absolutely care about our "customers", not just their custom. There's a very important distinction to be made there.

A video is on its way, we're doing our best. This game and the engine are a work in progress, most of the time it is barely functional and we need to complete things before we can record game foootage.

@DetonatorLoki
I don't understand the question about the £40 reward tier, that is for alpha and beta access and an additional copy of the game. The £30 tier includes none of those things.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. That puts things into much better perspective that I had beforehand. To explain myself I've been burned so many times this year through crowd funding and I am genuinely excited about this game and really don't want it to happen again. After reading what you've posted it becomes obvious where yourself and your team stands.

What I meant about the £40 is that myself and a few people I know who are in the same backing bracket feel left out when it comes to the videos. Why not just make them private on Youtube? It's not like it would cost BM anything?

 

[Rob]

...

...

Come on, let's stop with the "heated" discussion now - say what you want to say to get your point across, but don't get caught up on personal attacks. I don't want to make a big thing of it, but let's make sure things don't get out of hand, yeah?

 

[DetonatorLoki]

Come on, let's stop with the "heated" discussion now - say what you want to say to get your point across, but don't get caught up on personal attacks. I don't want to make a big thing of it, but let's make sure things don't get out of hand, yeah?

Agreed, I'm being a dick.