Non-Human Races

[Valvar]

Definitely agreed. The VtM games and Planescape: Torment also did it excellently. The problem, I think, is that it is hard. When game developers make an RPG, I imagine they think "hmm, we need the player to make hard choices here" and then they come up with a problem for the player. I think that might be the wrong approach. Instead choices should be something you have in the back of your mind at every turn, and when the opportunity presents itself you hand over control to the player. I also think that being unforgiving is good. As this game won't use save files, the possibility to immediately give the player consequences without the option of reloading are great. But as I also said in another post, paraphrasing CD Project Red, the player shouldn't be making choices because of the imagined consequences. When they do show up (the consequences, that is) the player will have to handle them (the player has to Deal With It ), and that makes the game come alive and makes it personal.

 

[Tony]

@Valvar: Are you, by chance, a member on TW forums?

Yes, I love having real and actual consequences in an RPG. I also find the idea of having the world progress (with or without the players input) to be a very intriguing idea. Instead of letting the player choose when to trigger the progression it will give the game a sense of urgency and make the passing of events something you have to take into consideration. It will make the world feel more like a real place where events actually occur. As to how they implement this in such a fashion that works in a game will be very interesting to see.

 

[Valvar]

I am registered, but not an active member, no. I like your avatar, too

Worlds that are independent of the player is something they promise us with almost every game but eventually fail to implement (that includes TW2). It would be extremely cool, but I am unsure how well it can be implemented. But as Sui Generis does seem to have a really good time system in place, I am sure that lots of things can be built on top of that (demonic rituals at midwinter and werewolves when the moon is full, anyone?).

 

[Tony]

My avatar is from a screenshot I took in TW2 (though the forums decided to chop off part of his head and feet).

Yes, I think the reasons most devs fail to implement actual world progression (without the player's input) is due to a couple of things:

1. They don't design the world with a detailed enough time mechanic to allow it (seasons, holidays, full moons, other special events that could be used as triggers, etc.)
2. They have generic quest systems which would break if time progression was in place

Since in Sui Generis they've supposedly removed the generic quest system and made it so you can actually kill NPCs, added a more in-depth time system and basically seems like they've laid the groundwork for world progression to actually work.

 

[CrazySwayze]

This is very much a game based on valid intentions, but since the core of the story of the game has not been revealed, which is why I personally think that this project is being funded so slowly, then I seriously don't know what to think about this kind of approach.

I dont think thats right I mean what did we saw from Obsidian with their promise of an oldschool 2d rpg game? After a few weeks they released ONE screenshot! And they got Millions of dollars. Here you have a Tech-Demo presenting the engine and stuff with a little glimpse of the story. It was just because Obsidian already has a name out there and many Gaming sites talked about it and so on.

And they said if they would talk more about the story they would just be spoilering, so I'm good with that and hope they reveal not too much of the story.

 

[Venom]

I dont think thats right I mean what did we saw from Obsidian with their promise of an oldschool 2d rpg game? After a few weeks they released ONE screenshot! And they got Millions of dollars. Here you have a Tech-Demo presenting the engine and stuff with a little glimpse of the story. It was just because Obsidian already has a name out there and many Gaming sites talked about it and so on.

And they said if they would talk more about the story they would just be spoilering, so I'm good with that and hope they reveal not too much of the story.

I don't want them to reveal much at all. I just want SOMETHING. The CORE is what I'm interested in. The absolute base of the story.. that's it.

 

[Madoc]

Ours is at heart a low fantasy world. Other races are nothing like humans, they have drastically different intelligences and psychologies. Non human races with societies similar to that of humans don't fit in with our world design. That said our universe does potentially support it.

We have considered making at least one other race playable but adding enough depth to this to make it viable would be a lot of work. If we didn't put a lot of care into it it would just be silly.

Thaumaturgy is very much an aspect of the human mind and this is an important element of the "lore". That said this doesn't mean other races might not have some other form of it. Don't expect "ogre mages" or anything like that though.

Other races may indeed use some tools and they will be able to communicate amongst eachother.

The core of the story is the very thing we want to hide. That's where you have to try to get to using your wits and reasoning.

 

[Venom]

THAT is what I wanted to hear. Thank you so much for the response! The lack of various races being playable implies much more customization for the human character, I hope.

 

[Humblerbee]

My avatar is from a screenshot I took in TW2 (though the forums decided to chop off part of his head and feet).

Yes, I think the reasons most devs fail to implement actual world progression (without the player's input) is due to a couple of things:

1. They don't design the world with a detailed enough time mechanic to allow it (seasons, holidays, full moons, other special events that could be used as triggers, etc.)
2. They have generic quest systems which would break if time progression was in place

Since in Sui Generis they've supposedly removed the generic quest system and made it so you can actually kill NPCs, added a more in-depth time system and basically seems like they've laid the groundwork for world progression to actually work.

No, the reason most devs don't implement actual world progression without player input is because the world exists solely for the player experience, events transpiring without the player playing any part is interesting, but ultimately very frustrating because people think they were supposed to affect outcomes, the player ultimately feel as though they missed out on opportunities, and it's simpler to just keep everything in stasis until the player comes into play to set events in motion, because it gives the player a greater sense of meaning and importance when the world around them lines up and they are the driver of the plot and world. It makes you feel as though you are central to the plot and experience, and this is something people enjoy. Of course, there are flip-sides to every point I listed, entailing why a dynamic world that plays out even without player input is also awesome, and I personally think it's much more interesting. That doesn't mean however that there aren't merits to the traditional system, and developers hardly avoid this because of technical feasibility.

 

[Tony]

@Humblerbee:

Sure, it's technically feasible (and rather simple) to implement world progression without a player's input. But to do it in a way that makes a game more engaging, instead of less, is the trick that devs seem to have troubles with. This is why I was saying it's awesome that they've designed their game around mechanics that will better support such a system. I'm hoping they'll be able to not only successfully implement such a feature, but do it in a way that no other game has done before. I'm interested in seeing what creative methods they come up with to pull this off

EDIT: I can think of a hundred different scenarios that would be badass to have occur using world progression. Imagine you're out in the wilderness somewhere, adventuring and what not, only to come back to a village or town and see it being invaded by a horde of orcs? Or lets say you see a plume of smoke in the distance so you decide to go back to the same village only to see a bunch of dead bodies and body parts strewn about the place, with subtle clues as to what happened. If you were curious as to what happened you could choose to investigate, or simply say "screw it" and continue on your merry way. I'd be thinking to myself "holy shit! I just talked to these villagers last time I was here... what in the hell happened?" Valvar suggested a few cool world events too, like randomly running into some demonic ritual taking place on a certain date or discovering that an NPC is really a werewolf when you witness them change during a full moon. These are events you might never discover, but would be very rewarding if you did.

 

[Humblerbee]

@Humblerbee:

Sure, it's technically feasible (and rather simple) to implement world progression without a player's input. But to do it in a way that makes a game more engaging, instead of less, is the trick that devs seem to have troubles with. This is why I was saying it's awesome that they've designed their game around mechanics that will better support such a system. I'm hoping they'll be able to not only successfully implement such a feature, but do it in a way that no other game has done before. I'm interested in seeing what creative methods they come up with to pull this off

EDIT: I can think of a hundred different scenarios that would be badass to have occur using world progression. Imagine you're out in the wilderness somewhere, adventuring and what not, only to come back to a village or town and see it being invaded by a horde of orcs? Or lets say you see a plume of smoke in the distance so you decide to go back to the same village only to see a bunch of dead bodies and body parts strewn about the place, with subtle clues as to what happened. If you were curious as to what happened you could choose to investigate, or simply say "screw it" and continue on your merry way. I'd be thinking to myself "holy shit! I just talked to these villagers last time I was here... what in the hell happened?" Valvar suggested a few cool world events too, like randomly running into some demonic ritual taking place on a certain date or discovering that an NPC is really a werewolf when you witness them change during a full moon. These are events you might never discover, but would be very rewarding if you did.

Like I said, I'm very excited about the idea and glad that Madoc decided to pursue it, I was just refuting the idea that other developers didn't implement real-time world progression because of technical limitations, it was a design choice. I think having a dynamic world will make it feel so much more real and alive, knowing that it will play out without you, that you are not some mystical hero of the gods, but rather just one part in a multi-faceted tale that marches on whether or not you play your role. I love that there aren't save files, like life, time marches ever onward and you don't get any do-overs, it won't wait for you, so go grab it by the horns now.

 

[Tony]

Like I said, I'm very excited about the idea and glad that Madoc decided to pursue it, I was just refuting the idea that other developers didn't implement real-time world progression because of technical limitations, it was a design choice. I think having a dynamic world will make it feel so much more real and alive, knowing that it will play out without you, that you are not some mystical hero of the gods, but rather just one part in a multi-faceted tale that marches on whether or not you play your role. I love that there aren't save files, like life, time marches ever onward and you don't get any do-overs, it won't wait for you, so go grab it by the horns now.

Well, I wasn't necessarily claiming that all devs fail to do it because of technical limitations, since I honestly do not know why many devs promise such a feature but never actually deliver [could just be marketing hype, could have turned out to cause too many issues with their quest system (like what happened with Oblivion's Radiant AI, which was promised but never got implemented since it broke the game), or it could be like you said and they simply changed their design choice]. I was trying to point out that not only is Bare Mettle promising such a feature, but also laying the ground work to make it feasible (which is why I listed the technical details about their engine).

 

[BrecMadak]

I think monsters from Berserk Manga could be a huge influence on you guys ? Most of you already know it though; http://www.slideshare.net/ghostlightning/we-remember-love-berserk-epic-battle

Abyssic, hellish & taunting freaks at best.

 

[Sean]

Personality, I prefer humans to every other race. What's with all the hate on humans in sci-fi and fantasy? Either we're the heroes of the universe or the evil and arrogant villains that everyone seems to hate; it's just not realistic, anyone who thinks that elves would on a whole act any differently than humans clearly gets their knowledge from fantasy rather than realistic speculation. And besides, the strongest race would have killed off as many other intelligent races they could have found while they were still cave dwellers. When was the last time you saw a neanderthal?

 

[the0thMonkey]

Hmmm...typically beast races are just humans with nonhuman characteristics. So, an orc is just a really strong human with a different backstory. I think it would be good if there were different playable character types even if they were all human. For example, Skyrim has Nords, Bretons, and Imperials. This type of idea could be expanded and implemented much more effectively.

That being said, it all makes it more difficult to implement. NPCs would have to react realistically based on player race. There is also the consideration that playing as a certain character would limit the players experience, so no one race would be able to take advantage of all opportunities presented in-game.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Errherhhh! Redguards. Are black people not humans now, huh, is that how you see things!

 

[the0thMonkey]

Sorry, totally forgot about Redguards! (It wasn't meant to be a comprehensive list)

 

[fluffydino2000]

It's okay, never played as them anyway, their accents were way too stereotypical for my liking.

 

[forest]

I don't want to play as other races, but can we mutate as humans? Nothing stereotypical like Vampires, wingy people or Werewolves, (Unless you completely rethink them) but other more creative demonic mutations or curses that you could get from spending too much time in the underworld, they'd have their advantages as well as their drawbacks, so you could choose to encourage the mutations or minimize and try to cure them, something similar to Corruption in ADOM or mutation in Crawl.

 

[fluffydino2000]

I'd like to see this too. Usually games that do this do it poorly as everything that happens is essentially a stat modification. Sui Generis should succeed in this department as effects of the mutation could be actual mutations or changes to your thaumaturgy etc. What if you grew two extra arms, for example, that's two extra weapons you could hold.