Yin and Yang

Psychomorph

Insider
No. I would hate to even consider having to manipulate my character because of their gender. I completely disagree. It shouldn't matter whether you are a man or a woman. A guy can be as magical as a girl, and a girl can be as physical as a guy. I am almost disgusted. To think that someone would even think of that...

I like the line idea. But not the female-male idea. Even if it's just a mind set or something..
And yes, I read it all.
You read it all, but I failed to explain properly. This has nothing to do with gender. The male/female is a bit like a metaphor, but one that is also grounded in reality. I guess. Magic is open to anybody, though the way you set your character (foundation) may influence and change the way it develops for you.

Think of your gender and body build as one thing and your inner energy another. You can define your character to be male, tall, athletic and fairly muscular. That nature of yours allows you to be a relatively capable fighter (compared to a small, weak and slow man), but if you set your inner energy for more female attributes, which distributes your potential in a certain way. That means you're short on the "male inner attributes", you will not go hardcore berserk in close combat, you will not crush the skulls of thousands of your enemies, you're not going to kill a dragon with your bare hands. Your inner potential emphasizes the "female inner attributes", which means you can go full scale dark magic and do things beyond your own imagination and still look like a normal healthy male while doing so. HOWEVER, full scale magic with "male inner attributes" will not make you a weak mage, it will redefine the way your magic manifests. I can imagine that aggressive, offensive and powerful magic will becoem most accessible and effective. You will gain immense potential to, let's say, cast intense fireballs and burn cities to the grounds. You are lacking the "female inner potential", yes, but that doesn't mean that you have no access to the dark magic or such, you do and the more you focus on it and invest practice the better you get, but it may not come as easy to you as the offensive magical arts.

Basically, everything is intertwined. Note the colors above, red is similar to orange right? so the male energy is more physical. Blue is similar to violet, because the female energy favours the inner world. But you can create a character that favours magic, but assign the male inner attributes to it. You'll get a mage that can be incredibly skillful, but favours the aggressive, fast, more imminent side of magic. A mage favouring the female inner potential will not be automatically more powerful, because paradoxically the "male inner potential" bears an incredible amount of energy, force and power, but the "female inner potential" gives you an extremely extensive and wide field of arcane and passive forms of magic. This may sound like inferior, but it's quite not like that. The potential in it is incredible in its own way.

The reason why I mentioned that Thaumaturgy should generally be a female trait is a bit difficult to explain. Again, this is less about gender, but about potential. In the real world, a male such as Mike Tyson is likely not going to be very competent with social elements, he's likely not a diplomat, is not going to work with little children in the Kindergarden. He's more like an extreme form of the male attribute, on the outside and the inside. The level of testosterone in his body took part in shaping his base character. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of being sensitive of course, he can be a man of fine arts as well, but his nature is rather "male" (I don't know him, but based on his public behaviour, his physical appearance and his profession you could make guesses).
A man however can be well (manly) built but have a tenancy toward the female inner attributes. He is likely not going to be an extremely aggressive character, and will be more openly sensitive, but not too female.
Basically, the inner attribute can influence both, the mind and the appearance, but it does not define these things.
And stuff.

Edit: Oh yes, to get back to the point. Thaumaturgy is a less physical thing - I mean sure it partially is, it's affects the physics, it costs physical energy, etc, but it originates from the inner and spiritual planes, and the female attributes are prominently of inner character. The male attribute is of rather physical, direct, openly exposed and influential character and thus is a great source of strength for a warrior, but also for a mage. As asid, this is not about gender, but the potential and energy distribution.


This is a bit too complicated I guess. I have a clear idea of what I am trying to say, but I am probably not too good at explaining it. Maybe we will get there by page number four, or six. :D



I think I have a fair grasp on what you are saying. I still wouldn't like this system simply because I like to choose my path as I learn more and more about the game (as I'm playing it). I don't want to have to make a choice before I ever start the game that will affect my abilities all throughout the rest of the game. What if I choose to make my character start out more proficient in thaumaturgy and after playing the game for a week I decide I hate thaumaturgy and prefer to use it as little as possible. Now I'm stuck knowing that I nerfed my character at the start of the game so I'll probably end up deleting my character and starting over. I hated this part of D&D games where you could choose a background that would give you bonuses in some areas when you had no idea what the game was all about.

If they made your idea as an optional choice in character creation I think it would be great for those who had a very clear idea about what type of character they wanted to play. But there is no realistic way to implement a duality system that wouldn't just break immersion for me (that I can conceive). People are more complex than a simple slider that says if you choose A then you're going to be less proficient at B.
Of course. Keep it simple and it will work, that never failed to be true. :D
I don't know how D&D handled that, but I see my suggestion as very flexible. And also, what if there are magical ways in the game to change your nature? Re-arrange your stars by using some old magic. You could reset your character at any time as part of gameplay without the need to delete your character. Of course, to make it interesting, there would be limits and consequences, you may pay for in what ever ways necessary (loose skills and identity), but nothing that would be annoying and game breaking. You could use a ritual where you sacrifice yourself, die and reborn changed. Endless ways to have awesome things in a game.


Yay, page two. :D
 

Tony

Insider
I don't know. Every game I've played with a similar system it did not add anything to the game and was mostly just an annoyance. It didn't break the game but overall I think the game would have been better if it wasn't added. Like I said, adding more ways to influence your character progression during the game = awesome. Adding ways to influence your character progression before you even start the game and have no idea what you're getting yourself into... why is this necessary and what will it add to the overall game experience?
 

Psychomorph

Insider
You may be right Tony, but I can imagine it would be awesome if done right. What it would add (if done right)? Awesomeness. :D
 

walltar

Insider
I like the line idea. But not the female-male idea. Even if it's just a mind set or something..
And yes, I read it all.
Well i think there don't need to be male/female ... it can be named body/spirit ... that way everyone knows what it is and none can be offended.

Why is the colour blue, spritituality, and thamauturgy associated with "female"?
:)
I think in past ... pink was colour used by men. So because this is set in past then using red/pink for men and blue for women is acurate.
 

Tony

Insider
You may be right Tony, but I can imagine it would be awesome if done right. What it would add (if done right)? Awesomeness. :D
If you say so. I think it would just be an irritant that would drive me nuts. I'd be thinking the entire time "why didn't I move the slider just one or two clicks to the left/right" instead of actually enjoying the game :p

I can see how people who prefer to min/max a character would love this option. They could squeeze an extra point or two of damage by sliding the bar all the way in one direction. But usually elements of games that encourage min/maxing characters take away from realism and immersion. I don't want to be worrying the entire time if I made the proper choice with my slider to fit the type of character I want to play as.

The reason I find it limiting is because you're basically just creating three predefined classes. A thaumaturgist, a warrior and a hybrid of the two (leaving the slider in the middle). I say leave this choice for the player to make while playing the game - not before they start playing the game.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
Well i think there don't need to be male/female ... it can be named body/spirit ... that way everyone knows what it is and none can be offended.



I think in past ... pink was colour used by men. So because this is set in past then using red/pink for men and blue for women is acurate.
I like the body-spirit thing. I like it alot more.
 

walltar

Insider
Sounds good indeed. I wonder if it is not a bit deceiving though. Body and Spirit sounds very literal, which in dualism it is not.
Well then you can use symbols for moon and for sun or water and fire ... I think you may find more people who wouldt like femine side to their characters.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
3:20

My post was the last on the last page, which asks to be ignored, so I moved it to the first post of the second page.




Sounds good indeed. I wonder if it is not a bit deceiving though. Body and Spirit sounds very literal, which in dualism it is not.
I still don't understand your first statement, but never mind.

I'm not sure I like dualism.
Bare Mettle's ideas seem pretty set-in-stone, especially for skills and thamauturgy.
 

Tony

Insider
I still don't understand your first statement, but never mind.

I'm not sure I like dualism.
Bare Mettle's ideas seem pretty set-in-stone, especially for skills and thamauturgy.
I can't think of a single benefit to making a choice like a slider for dualism at the start of the game. However, I can think of many things it'd impact negatively. Usually if you make a list of pros and cons and the cons outweigh the pros... you don't do it ;)
 

Psychomorph

Insider
Setting the "balance" in stone at the beginning is probably indeed a bad idea, especially in a game you just launched and know not much about it is like a blind shot and you may regret your choice later.

Let me approach it from another angle then. I mean BM already stated that you will not become everything at the same time, there will be limits and at some point you will need to focus more and also developed skills will make progression in similar skills faster and have them naturally more accessible.

Let's just see the balance symbol and your state in it as merely as a form of information reflecting your choice that you made and are making (in a very cool way). If you focus on and develop the passive skills more than any other, than your balance will be reflected in the balance symbol as blue/left side/female/whatever you want to call it. Do you focus on the active skills, than your balance will shift to the right side.
The thinking behind the balance thing is frankly that if you focus on one side, you will reach great results in that area, but while focusing on one thing adds to it greatly, it takes away from another, usually the opposite side. Think of it as if two objects are connected by a too short rope, if one becomes stronger, it pulls the other and shifts their collective mass toward that one side. If you go for a route where you put emphasis on both, opposite ends (extend the rope), the collective mass is spread and each object on their own has less power.

The balance symbol would reflect your choice and give you a better understanding of yourself and what your factor is in the universe.


It is too late over here, I'll try to explain it better later.
 

Tony

Insider
Setting the "balance" in stone at the beginning is probably indeed a bad idea, especially in a game you just launched and know not much about it is like a blind shot and you may regret your choice later.
...
The balance symbol would reflect your choice and give you a better understanding of yourself and what your factor is in the universe.
If you just want a visual indicator that represents what your current build is leaning towards I would have no problem with that. I've played so many games that force you to make choices like what background your character has, what god they follow, what proficiencies you'll have, etc. before the game ever starts. I don't want to influence my character in such ways before the game even starts. I want to make these choices while I'm playing the game, when I have something to actually base these decisions off of, instead of just picking random things at the start that will influence the rest of my gameplay experience.
 

Verva

Member
To me, this whole idea is somewhat out of place for SG. Pre-defining your character's proficiencies can only lead to frustration later on, as Tony has expressed well enough. There shouldn't be any dualities. There's no real dualities in life, so why have them in SG? Sure you can go full thuamaturgy (Spelling?) or full warrior, but there's such a big grey area in between, with different kinds of weapon types, armour types, and spells, and ways to combine these skills, that in any one set up there's no clear tendancy towards mind or body, just different abilities. (based off what little I actualyl know of the game, correct me if I'm wrong.)

There's also no good/bad. You kill a guy, was he good? Was he bad? Was he a good person that is misunderstood? A bad guy acting good? A bad guy doing bad things, that have an overall good result? Were you justified in killing him? There's just no way to be consistent in determining whether something is good or bad, and thus there's no way to represent it.

Instead of useless feedback, why not just do what you want and not have your decisions judged by the game?
 

Psychomorph

Insider
To me, this whole idea is somewhat out of place for SG. Pre-defining your character's proficiencies can only lead to frustration later on, as Tony has expressed well enough. There shouldn't be any dualities. There's no real dualities in life, so why have them in SG? Sure you can go full thuamaturgy (Spelling?) or full warrior, but there's such a big grey area in between, with different kinds of weapon types, armour types, and spells, and ways to combine these skills, that in any one set up there's no clear tendancy towards mind or body, just different abilities. (based off what little I actualyl know of the game, correct me if I'm wrong.)
I agree, but I still think that the idea wasn't really understood, because I think I still failed to explain. Let me try it one last time.
Let's see the whole thing not as predefining the characters abilities, these you have to develop during playing. It is more about setting a temper. Temper, now I wonder why I didn't get that term before, but as said, I'm terrible at finding the right terms at the right time to express my thoughts.

You may learn many skills as an adult or if you come into a situation in your life where you have no choice, but temper develops early. The player would have the chance to choose a temper. I think that most have an idea of what they want their character to be and the temper would merely naturally favour certain abilities. I know I will choose a more stealthy, passive temper already. I have no reason to go for an aggressive and fiery temper, because I cannot identify myself with it. This system would allow people to create an identity, which isn't meant to be a limitation. It is not about limiting certain abilities, but to favour certain abilities.
Those who are undecided could always set the identity to balanced (50/50) and would not suffer any handicaps. So let me say that the temper system is meant to add to the game, not take away from it.

Temper can also be ambivalent, which why I went for the ability to split the marker on the bar (moon and star in the first picture I posted), though the split would not be equal, there would be a dominant/primary temper/trait and a secondary one. This system would require a bit more explanation, not important at this point. Just wanted to mention how there could be interesting things to do with tempers.

The question now is; what does it have to do with dualism? I think saying that there's no real dualities in life is wrong. The interaction of oppositions is what creates force which shapes the world. The material world and spiritual, if there is such thing. Cold and hot are two oppositions, there's a lot variation in between, but nothing outside of it. You need a body to actually feel the temperature, so you can say the temperatures are an illusion created by the body, but illusion or not, if there's an effect, than there is reality. I believe reality, or what we perceive as such, is a creation of duality.


Instead of useless feedback, why not just do what you want and not have your decisions judged by the game?
Freedom is good, but unlimited freedom is not. There needs to be the right balance between freedom and structure. I know BM will get this right, so there is nothing to worry about. There will be limitations in SG that will make sense and make the game's mechanics interesting to manage.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
I can't think of a single benefit to making a choice like a slider for dualism at the start of the game. However, I can think of many things it'd impact negatively. Usually if you make a list of pros and cons and the cons outweigh the pros... you don't do it ;)
I don't do what?

Also, I don't think I mentioned a slider... I was just saying that Madoc's ideas are different from yours and Psychomorph's. I like a set of sliders and skills that you can learn and un-learn (as mentioned by Madoc), and other things of that sort. Everyone has their own opinion, right?

Happy holidays. :D
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
You read it all, but I failed to explain properly. This has nothing to do with gender. The male/female is a bit like a metaphor, but one that is also grounded in reality. I guess. Magic is open to anybody, though the way you set your character (foundation) may influence and change the way it develops for you.

Think of your gender and body build as one thing and your inner energy another. You can define your character to be male, tall, athletic and fairly muscular. That nature of yours allows you to be a relatively capable fighter (compared to a small, weak and slow man), but if you set your inner energy for more female attributes, which distributes your potential in a certain way. That means you're short on the "male inner attributes", you will not go hardcore berserk in close combat, you will not crush the skulls of thousands of your enemies, you're not going to kill a dragon with your bare hands. Your inner potential emphasizes the "female inner attributes", which means you can go full scale dark magic and do things beyond your own imagination and still look like a normal healthy male while doing so. HOWEVER, full scale magic with "male inner attributes" will not make you a weak mage, it will redefine the way your magic manifests. I can imagine that aggressive, offensive and powerful magic will becoem most accessible and effective. You will gain immense potential to, let's say, cast intense fireballs and burn cities to the grounds. You are lacking the "female inner potential", yes, but that doesn't mean that you have no access to the dark magic or such, you do and the more you focus on it and invest practice the better you get, but it may not come as easy to you as the offensive magical arts.

Basically, everything is intertwined. Note the colors above, red is similar to orange right? so the male energy is more physical. Blue is similar to violet, because the female energy favours the inner world. But you can create a character that favours magic, but assign the male inner attributes to it. You'll get a mage that can be incredibly skillful, but favours the aggressive, fast, more imminent side of magic. A mage favouring the female inner potential will not be automatically more powerful, because paradoxically the "male inner potential" bears an incredible amount of energy, force and power, but the "female inner potential" gives you an extremely extensive and wide field of arcane and passive forms of magic. This may sound like inferior, but it's quite not like that. The potential in it is incredible in its own way.

The reason why I mentioned that Thaumaturgy should generally be a female trait is a bit difficult to explain. Again, this is less about gender, but about potential. In the real world, a male such as Mike Tyson is likely not going to be very competent with social elements, he's likely not a diplomat, is not going to work with little children in the Kindergarden. He's more like an extreme form of the male attribute, on the outside and the inside. The level of testosterone in his body took part in shaping his base character. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of being sensitive of course, he can be a man of fine arts as well, but his nature is rather "male" (I don't know him, but based on his public behaviour, his physical appearance and his profession you could make guesses).
A man however can be well (manly) built but have a tenancy toward the female inner attributes. He is likely not going to be an extremely aggressive character, and will be more openly sensitive, but not too female.
Basically, the inner attribute can influence both, the mind and the appearance, but it does not define these things.
And stuff.

Edit: Oh yes, to get back to the point. Thaumaturgy is a less physical thing - I mean sure it partially is, it's affects the physics, it costs physical energy, etc, but it originates from the inner and spiritual planes, and the female attributes are prominently of inner character. The male attribute is of rather physical, direct, openly exposed and influential character and thus is a great source of strength for a warrior, but also for a mage. As asid, this is not about gender, but the potential and energy distribution.


This is a bit too complicated I guess. I have a clear idea of what I am trying to say, but I am probably not too good at explaining it. Maybe we will get there by page number four, or six. :D





Of course. Keep it simple and it will work, that never failed to be true. :D
I don't know how D&D handled that, but I see my suggestion as very flexible. And also, what if there are magical ways in the game to change your nature? Re-arrange your stars by using some old magic. You could reset your character at any time as part of gameplay without the need to delete your character. Of course, to make it interesting, there would be limits and consequences, you may pay for in what ever ways necessary (loose skills and identity), but nothing that would be annoying and game breaking. You could use a ritual where you sacrifice yourself, die and reborn changed. Endless ways to have awesome things in a game.


Yay, page two. :D
I agree with what Tony said. If I haven't started playing the game yet, I don't want to have to sculpt my abilities quite yet. I want to get a feel for the game first and then make my abilities suited to my preferences as I go along.

Also, I don't want to choose "female" and "male" "inner" and "outer" attributes. If I look like a guy, feel like a guy, and think like a guy; then I don't want to have anything about me associated with "female".
I guess what I mean to say is, I don't like like the term "male" and "female". I prefer "body" and "spirit" (if anything). I also don't want them to be completely different - but it takes too long to find colours that are close enough together yet far enough apart to be as I describe them (body and spirit).

Congrats on your second page. :D
Happy holidays,
 

Tony

Insider
I don't do what?

Also, I don't think I mentioned a slider... I was just saying that Madoc's ideas are different from yours and Psychomorph's. I like a set of sliders and skills that you can learn and un-learn (as mentioned by Madoc), and other things of that sort. Everyone has their own opinion, right?

Happy holidays. :D
Sorry for not being more clear. I wasn't directly saying what you personally should or shouldn't do. I was referring to a dualism slider. I was saying that if the cons outweigh the pros then Sui Generis should not have such a feature.
 

Cooper Holt

Insider
Sorry for not being more clear. I wasn't directly saying what you personally should or shouldn't do. I was referring to a dualism slider. I was saying that if the cons outweigh the pros then Sui Generis should not have such a feature.
Ohhh... thanks for clearing that up. The insider forums are up, you should check them out! :D
 
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