Solution to fix the camera problem

[Roshawn Terrell]

After much thought i have come to the conclusion that the true limitation here, is the mouse and keyboard setup. Which makes sense, seeing as the mouse and keyboard were never intended to be used as video game interfaces in the first place. We only adopted them to be used as such.

This is the very reason why people have to use different interfacing methods when dealing with new types of games that go beyond the boundaries of the basic games that only require basic input. A perfect example of games that go beyond this boundary are flight sims. Flight sims such as Star Citizen require a joystick in order to reach the higher portions of the skill ceiling. This is not due to some inherent bias towards flight sticks, but is specifically due to the hardware limitation of a mouse and keyboard, specifically the keyboard.

Game developers such as the ones behind Star Citizen will not let their game be held back by hardware limitations, which is why they choose to optimize their game towards flight sticks.

I don't think this game should limit itself either.

The core problem behind the camera and why it is the way it is, is due to the lack of degrees of motion we effectively have control over.

So instead of using a mouse and keyboard, i propose that the game developers should consider optimizing their game towards a dual mouse setup, there are other setups that allow for extra degrees of freedom such as VR headsets. But lets focus on the dual mouse setup for now. Mainly because its the most affordable option for most players, and likely easier for the developers to implement.



With a dual mouse setup you could map the body rotation to the left mouse, and the camera controls to the right mouse. Effectively giving you the ability to separate the two, and not having to compromise for in my opinion, an inferior experience.

For movement, you can map the wasd controls to the buttons on the side of the mouses. You can also do the same for the inventory button and various other menus.

With this, it would now be possible to have a 3rd person view, or even potentially a first person view.


Even better, this would not just serve an aesthetic purpose. Though the difference in immersion from a top down view compared to a 3rd person view is massive, at least for me. I feel as if i am more in my characters shoes, rather than controlling a character.

Regardless, this would also serve a deep mechanical purpose as well. Increasing the amount of control and fidelity of movement and as such raising the skill ceiling.

At the moment where you aim your attack is a bit iffy in exanima, you can definitely aim it, but your aim is no where near as good and as intuitive compared to a 3rd person view. This is entirely due to the fact that you are limited to using a overhead second dimensional plane to aim at parts separated by three dimensions.

Another advantage and honestly my favorite, is the potential for increased body/hitbox manipulation. The same type of manipulation found in chivalry.

Because you have body direction mapped onto the second mouse, and because your now in a 3rd person perspective. You can now make it so you can control your characters posture moving the left mouse up and down.

Essentially giving you the ability to precisely dodge under your opponents weapon, you can also lean back to dodge a weapon as well. Not only that but i believe i also see the ability for extra weapon/physics manipulation with this new system.

Overall i believe i have found an effective solution to the camera problem, and i see absolutely no reason now to not make this game 3rd person.

The only problem i can think of, is the fact that maybe you don't want to alienate certain players who only have a mouse and keyboard. But as i said above. This game is unlike any other game out there, this game is different, this game is unique. The level of depth and skill and control this game demands is above nearly if not all others. As such just like flight sims, it demands a better interface. Limiting your game, does not seem like the best option, because its exactly that, limiting your game from becoming something more.

Another thing, is that you can make this an option you can toggle on and off. To allow people who only have a single mouse and keyboard. To stick with the current camera and control scheme.

Anyway, please consider this idea, and Thank You for taking the time to read this.

 

[zhuliks]

This whole post is top kek.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

This whole post is top kek.

Do you think there are any problems with the idea, if so what?

 

[zhuliks]

Do you think there are any problems with the idea, if so what?

are you serious?

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

are you serious?

Very...I spent a lot of time and effort thinking of a solution to this problem, and writing this post.

The least i could ask for is to be taken seriously, and for any all potential scrutinization agaisnt this idea to be done so from a rational and unbiased perspective.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

Tony specifically told me in my previous post titled "The camera is my worst enemy" that the developers initially wanted a 3rd person perspective, but quickly realized it would not work. They tried thinking of solutions but could not find one.

He said the developers are completely open to suggestions if said suggestions don't break other things in the process.

I have presented a solution that not only fixes all the problems, but does so without creating new ones. And even going further by enhancing the games mechanics by potentially incorporating more depth than the game currently has.

View attachment 1557

Interestingly enough the devs originally planned to use a third person camera. After testing it out they realized it just wasn't going to work so scrapped it and switched to the isometric view. First person and third person were both inadequate and had too many problems associated with each.

The current system allows all necessary game mechanics to function as intended and gives the player more control than either first person or third person camera perspectives (due to the cursor not being tied to the camera like it would be with both first and third person perspectives). The free roaming cursor is what the control scheme is based off of and so far no one has been able to present a system that would function better than what is currently used.

The devs will listen to suggestions and ideas but only if they are well thought-out and carefully considered. If an idea improves upon one thing but breaks ten others then it's not a valid suggestion. First ask yourself why things are the way they are in the game and keep in mind the devs have valid reasons for what they do; they've spent years designing the current system and have made literally hundreds of tweaks along the way to get it to where it's currently at. It's not just something they decided to do on whim... it is very unlikely someone who hasn't invested the time and effort that the devs have will come up with something better but you never know .

 

[zhuliks]

Well for starters there is no problem with the camera, only people not used to this type of control and whining about it.

You unlike those whiners didnt ask to for camera controls to be dumbed down to popular solutions but went completely..ehm, different solution, even more re...unintuitive and unusual.

Here is a list of issues of your idea:

- people would flip their shit if they even read what they need to play this game;
- many have special mouse pads for their mice and place for them you suggest they get another one and another pad to play just one game (unlike with flight sims dual mouse control wont be a genre);
- suggesting movement control on additional mouse buttons is just, just not though through, not only many mice dont have enough buttons their location and layout isnt intuitive to properly use like wasd which is basically left-up-right-down intuitive layout;
- if anything I would expect you to mention a gamepad instead of keyboard for 360 directional freedom of movement in another hand.

What you did there to fix 'unintuitive' exanima is suggesting even more unintuitive clunky solution that requires more hardware to use.

P.S.: yes devs tested it with 3rd person camera and it didnt work, current system is a result of many trials and errors and its the cotrols game is currently developed around. You will not get 3rd person camera at ths stage as game design has been developed around top down view (levels have no ceiling etc and textures arent high res enough)

Camera is a non issue as anyone with a lot of hours in the game will tell you.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

Well for starters there is no problem with the camera, only people not used to this type of control and whining about it.

You unlike those whiners didnt ask to for camera controls to be dumbed down to popular solutions but went completely..ehm, different solution, even more re...unintuitive and unusual.

Here is a list of issues of your idea:

- people would flip their shit if they even read what they need to play this game;
- many have special mouse pads for their mice and place for them you suggest they get another one and another pad to play just one game (unlike with flight sims dual mouse control wont be a genre);
- suggesting movement control on additional mouse buttons is just, just not though through, not only many mice dont have enough buttons their location and layout isnt intuitive to properly use like wasd which is basically left-up-right-down intuitive layout;
- if anything I would expect you to mention a gamepad instead of keyboard for 360 directional freedom of movement in another hand.

What you did there to fix 'unintuitive' exanima is suggesting even more unintuitive clunky solution that requires more hardware to use.

P.S.: yes devs tested it with 3rd person camera and it didnt work, current system is a result of many trials and errors and its the cotrols game is currently developed around. You will not get 3rd person camera at ths stage as game design has been developed around top down view (levels have no ceiling etc and textures arent high res enough)

Camera is a non issue as anyone with a lot of hours in the game will tell you.

No offense but your attitude regarding this seems extremely biased and from a far different tone than the one i was getting from tony.

First you laugh at my post even though i put the time and effort into it, while also effectively finding a solution to this problem.

Then you argue agaisnt my idea, by saying things like "people would flip their shit" without offering any solid evidence that a interface like this would not work.

I think ill wait for tony's or the developers to respond, and i hope they are not as inconsiderate as you are.

 

[zhuliks]

As you wish, but while you wait try rotating you left hand clowkwise, while with right hand switch rotating counter clockwise/clockwise.

Then sit and think about your solution again, maybe read my post second time and notice something else besides "people flipping their shit".

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

As you wish, but while you wait try rotating you left hand clowkwise, while with right hand switch rotating counter clockwise/clockwise.

Then sit and think about your solution again, maybe read my post second time and notice something else besides "people flipping their shit".

I see the point you are trying to make. It's the same problem as patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time. Personally i don't have problem doing this and can switch between the two rapidly and fluidly.

But many others will have a more difficult time trying to control multiple axis of movement at the same time.

This is not a problem, just another skill that the player will have to learn and master.

 

[zhuliks]

well why dont you just master current camera really?
Game will never be 3rd person at this stage and because 3rd person has more issues than just control with physics engine it has.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

well why dont you just master current camera really?
Game will never be 3rd person at this stage and because 3rd person has more issues than just control with physics engine it has.

Who ever said i didn't master the current camera?

I have already learned how to use the camera in this game. My problem is the lack of immersion, and the lack of control you can have compared to what you can have with a third person perspective.

"Game will never be 3rd person"

You don't know that.

Now do you actually see any mechanical problems with the idea, or are you going to continue to say things obviously derived from your biased want of things to stay as they are?

This idea from a complete factual stand point, will allow for complete control of the camera, without hindering weapon or body control. At the same time it will allow for even greater accuracy of attacks, and for the further inclusion of deeper combat mechanisms.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

After even further thought, i have realized even deeper mechanical advantages to this idea that you simply cannot deny.

As shown in this upcoming game inspired by chivalry that will also be placed on kickstarter later this summer. It added a deep mechanic that chivalry lacked and that this game also lacks. In chivalry you were limited to only 3 different types of attacks, horizontal slashes, vertical overheads, and stabs. Exanima suffers from the same problem and this is entirely due to the isometric view it currently has.

In Mordhau the game shown in the video, they completely break this limitation and add a whole new level of depth to the combat mechanics. In Mordhau you can attack with 360 degrees range of motion.

A mechanic like this would absolutely trump any weapon manipulation Exanima has at this point.
Not only that, but due to the fact that Exanima is physics based rather than animation based, you could now have FULL control of your weapon, and actually fling and twirl and entirely control your weapon with REAL physics. Imagine being able to effectively draw a figure eight with your weapon, that's the level of fidelity and control this could provide.

Just from this argument alone, it absolutely destroys any point you may have had.

With this, the depth in combat would reach heights far beyond what the current system could even hope to achieve. This is not an opinion, but is observable measurable fact.

At this point there is absolutely no excuse not to implement this.

Not only that but i am sure with even further thought, there are likely even deeper potential benefits that you or i simply could not have imagined.

I absolutely do not want to see this complex system that has so much potential to be held back by nothing more than prejudice.

 

[Chase]

The game is designed to be viewed from an isometric perspective, changing that so late in development would be a massive undertaking that would give virtually nil benefit to the developers. I'm not just using words like "massive undertaking" to inflate my position, I'm being very literal. Madoc (the team's only programmer) would have to make substantial changes to the renderer, level design, camera handling, all combat mechanics, etc. in order for this idea to even have a chance at being somewhat functional. The idea that the game was "meant to be third person" (it actually wasn't, 3rd person was never even considered for Exanima, and was only briefly considered in the very earliest pre-kickstarter days of Sui Generis) does not make it any easier for one man to remake the entire game based around a completely different perspective. On top of the ludicrous amount of work it would require, asking that players own two mice and plug both of them in and set up their desk every time they want to play the game is just silly. And before you say "but it's optional, just turn it off," why have it in the first place then? If only 1 in 10000 players are actually willing to go through the gauntlet required to use such controls, why go through all the effort, time, and money wasted to alter the game in such a way?

Your most recent post in which you suggest the developers plagiarize the mechanics from Mordhau gives me the impression that you have absolutely no clue as to the gargantuan effort that would be required to achieve such results with the current system. What you ask for is not humanly possible with such a small team working on a limited budget. Even a large team with unlimited funds would have a very difficult time, given that the system Exanima uses is something completely new and original, as opposed to Mordhau's use of industry standard skeletal animations. At this point, you are essentially asking that the developers make a completely different game set in Exanima's world. I personally think that is not only insulting to the work that the developers have done, but also demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of game design and development.

I hope my post doesn't come off as rude, that isn't my intention--I just honestly disagree with your suggestions and don't think they have any practical value.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

The game is designed to be viewed from an isometric perspective, changing that so late in development would be a massive undertaking that would give virtually nil benefit to the developers. I'm not just using words like "massive undertaking" to inflate my position, I'm being very literal. Madoc (the team's only programmer) would have to make substantial changes to the renderer, level design, camera handling, all combat mechanics, etc. in order for this idea to even have a chance at being somewhat functional. The idea that the game was "meant to be third person" (it actually wasn't, 3rd person was never even considered for Exanima, and was only briefly considered in the very earliest pre-kickstarter days of Sui Generis) does not make it any easier for one man to remake the entire game based around a completely different perspective. On top of the ludicrous amount of work it would require, asking that players own two mice and plug both of them in and set up their desk every time they want to play the game is just silly. And before you say "but it's optional, just turn it off," why have it in the first place then? If only 1 in 10000 players are actually willing to go through the gauntlet required to use such controls, why go through all the effort, time, and money wasted to alter the game in such a way?

Your most recent post in which you suggest the developers plagiarize the mechanics from Mordhau gives me the impression that you have absolutely no clue as to the gargantuan effort that would be required to achieve such results with the current system. What you ask for is not humanly possible with such a small team working on a limited budget. Even a large team with unlimited funds would have a very difficult time, given that the system Exanima uses is something completely new and original, as opposed to Mordhau's use of industry standard skeletal animations. At this point, you are essentially asking that the developers make a completely different game set in Exanima's world. I personally think that is not only insulting to the work that the developers have done, but also demonstrates a severe lack of understanding of game design and development.

I hope my post doesn't come off as rude, that isn't my intention--I just honestly disagree with your suggestions and don't think they have any practical value.

Being difficult to implement, i can see that as a possibility, but honestly the fact that hes gotten this far shows hes a skilled programmer, not only that, it shows he has a deep goal. He didn't just come up with the idea on a whim, he set out to make a game with a deep combat system. Even his vocabulary such as the term he used "infinite skill ceiling" reverberates with this desire to make the one the deepest combat systems ever created.

In regards to your statement that this does not have any "practical value" that's absolutely not true, and the fact that you can't see that either means you have not read or understood my posts. If you did understand, you would see that the level of depth this would add to the combat system, is far-far beyond what this game currently has, but absolutely has the potential to be.

Whether or not this solution even adds to the game, is so blatant that its not even up for debate.

"asking that players own two mice and plug both of them in and set up their desk every time they want to play the game is just silly."

So you want to limit this game from what it could be simply due to people prejudices?

If that's the case, then you absolutely do not have the games best interest in mind. Maybe its public reception sure, but when it comes down to the depth and functionality, then no you do not care about this games potential progress.

This game from the very beginning was made to be different and break the status quo, not adhere to it.

As i said before flight sims such as star citizen don't hinder their games by limiting themselves to mouse and keyboard, and this game shouldn't either.

 

[ZaratanCho]

None of those games's mechanics you mention have relevance to Exanima, they do not have physics based gameplay. Those suggestions are no solutions to any "camera problem"(rather cause of many problems). The camera control is far from the only thing that makes 3rd person really bad here. Isometric view was chosen because it works best with the physics gameplay and the whole physics system. Static camera works great. Only thing i can agree is that 3rd/1st person is usually more immersive, but it is not worth destroying the gameplay for that.

Flight sticks and sims ? That is a whole genre of games, yet another ridiculous point that means nothing in the context of Exanima and support of your dual mouse stuff. Also telling everyone who disagrees with you(people who have been involved with the game for a while and understand how it functions better) that it's just 'prejudice' and they don't care about the game is a joke(should also apply to you then). Sure seems more like you simply want the game to be how you want it, which isn't looking out for the interests of the game. Fortunately the devs know what they are doing and they care about the game the most. ;d Yes, Madoc didn't make the technology for the game on a whim and he also didn't end up with isometric view on a whim. Expecting him to remake the whole combat system and game sacrificing from the best part, the physics, just so it is how you want it is crazy. And on top of not understanding how the game functions all that well you seem to not understand the effort that would require to do that you want as Chase pointed out.

That is if your idea was practical and could work in the first place. Also despite the combat system being one of deepest ever in a game and is continuing to evolve with updates it is NOT a main focus of the game. Dept can come in many different ways and more dept doesn't equal better.

The game was not made to "break the status quo" that is simply a 'side effect' of the devs making the game they want, unique and very high quality too. Think what you want but what you are suggesting will not happen and it can't work.

 

[Roryn]

This is all very interesting, but I feel that there are a few things I need to say about this...

Your points all seem valid and I suppose it's not hard to accept that they're quite well thought out, but there are still problems with a 1st or even 3rd person view even if you discount all the arguments about combat and programming (not that I know anything about the latter).

Firstly, I can't imagine it being particularly easy to manipulate the environment -- i.e picking up objects and such -- with a 1st person view. You need a good level of perception, which an iso camera gives you, to play this game properly, or so it seems to me. The alpha gameplay demonstrates this well, teleporting from rooftop to rooftop. That mechanic would be clunky, at best, in any other view, and I think the same would go for a lot of thamaturgy.

Secondly, and this might come off as being more of an opinion, but I don't think immersion comes from perspective. Immersion comes from what this game provides -- atmospheric music (though I say it's got more than just atmosphere), reaslitic sounds and physics and environments, and a deep lore. Frankly, with all else it's got, I don't think I'd have needed the lore. As Madoc said, everything is there for a reason. Now that's immersion.

Just because something's first person doesn't make it more immersive (and this is why I think all the anti-3rd-personers on the Kingdom Come: Deliverance forums are idiots... I mean, they don't even want people to have a choice!!). In fact, I find that 1st person can often break immersion for me (though incidentaly I like it in KC: D. Yeah, off topic, sorry). I don't think it's that hard to "empathise" with your character from a 3rd-person or isometric perspective. For instance, Uncharted 4, to me, feels so much more personal than, say, CoD as a relatively extreme example. 1st person perspectives aren't all that realistic, for a few arguable reasons, and neither is virtual reality just yet.

But my final point is that an iso perspective surely doesn't limit the game, even in terms of combat. At the very least, it's merely different to a 1st person perspective, not inferior. Exanima or Sui Generis is unique for lots of reasons, and I include its iso perspective among them. When multiplayer is added (and oh man I hope it's soon), I'll find it so much more enjoyable watching what everyone on the screen is doing rather than just focusin on what directly in front of me. Perception adds greater depth to combat, as it allows you to strategise and such better. In a first person perspective, imagine all the problems of tripping or falling down from chairs behind you. Now that I think about it, the shaking and moving of the camera would make seeing even what's right in front of you almost impossible.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

None of those games's mechanics you mention have relevance to Exanima, they do not have physics based gameplay.

All because a game has different mechanics does not mean truths from one cannot transfer over from another.

"Those suggestions are no solutions to any "camera problem"(rather cause of many problems). "

Then OUTLINE the problems! Don't just say a blank statement with no information to back it up. You can't because there are none and your literally just looking for anything you can find to back up your argument while completely ignoring the strong facts presented.

"Isometric view was chosen because it works best with the physics gameplay and the whole physics system"

More blank statements with no information or reasoning to back them up.

I literally just detailed very clearly how this would work and enhance the combat system, specifically because it was physics based.

Everything you just said completely avoided discussing specifically HOW this would not work and focused entirely on spouting on what amounted to nothing more than your opinion.

 

[Roshawn Terrell]

This is all very interesting, but I feel that there are a few things I need to say about this...

Your points all seem valid and I suppose it's not hard to accept that they're quite well thought out, but there are still problems with a 1st or even 3rd person view even if you discount all the arguments about combat and programming (not that I know anything about the latter).

Firstly, I can't imagine it being particularly easy to manipulate the environment -- i.e picking up objects and such -- with a 1st person view. You need a good level of perception, which an iso camera gives you, to play this game properly, or so it seems to me. The alpha gameplay demonstrates this well, teleporting from rooftop to rooftop. That mechanic would be clunky, at best, in any other view, and I think the same would go for a lot of thamaturgy.

Secondly, and this might come off as being more of an opinion, but I don't think immersion comes from perspective. Immersion comes from what this game provides -- atmospheric music (though I say it's got more than just atmosphere), reaslitic sounds and physics and environments, and a deep lore. Frankly, with all else it's got, I don't think I'd have needed the lore. As Madoc said, everything is there for a reason. Now that's immersion.

Just because something's first person doesn't make it more immersive (and this is why I think all the anti-3rd-personers on the Kingdom Come: Deliverance forums are idiots... I mean, they don't even want people to have a choice!!). In fact, I find that 1st person can often break immersion for me (though incidentaly I like it in KC: D. Yeah, off topic, sorry). I don't think it's that hard to "empathise" with your character from a 3rd-person or isometric perspective. For instance, Uncharted 4, to me, feels so much more personal than, say, CoD as a relatively extreme example. 1st person perspectives aren't all that realistic, for a few arguable reasons, and neither is virtual reality just yet.

But my final point is that an iso perspective surely doesn't limit the game, even in terms of combat. At the very least, it's merely different to a 1st person perspective, not inferior. Exanima or Sui Generis is unique for lots of reasons, and I include its iso perspective among them. When multiplayer is added (and oh man I hope it's soon), I'll find it so much more enjoyable watching what everyone on the screen is doing rather than just focusin on what directly in front of me. Perception adds greater depth to combat, as it allows you to strategise and such better. In a first person perspective, imagine all the problems of tripping or falling down from chairs behind you. Now that I think about it, the shaking and moving of the camera would make seeing even what's right in front of you almost impossible.

All the points you made some of them solid, some of them flimsy, were all aimed at first person view. I never argued for first person view, i argued for third person view.

I directly focused on third person view for a reason, because there are potentially even bigger problems with first person view that even you didn't recognize.

In regards to immersion, that's entirely subjective and is dependent on the person. For me Isometric view will never compare to the immersive qualities of third person.

I knew this was subjective as well hence the reason why i did not make immersion the for front of my argument. But instead focused on the mechanical advantages, and it turned out that the advantages were far bigger than i could have initially imagined.

"1st person perspectives aren't all that realistic, for a few arguable reasons, and neither is virtual reality just yet."

Even though this has nothing to really due with the debate here, i simply have to call you out on this.

I own a HTC Vive, Virtual Reality reaches states of immersion far beyond any 2 dimensional monitor can even hope to achieve. You clearly have not used a consumer VR headset.

 

[Roryn]

All the points you made some of them solid, some of them flimsy, were all aimed at first person view. I never argued for first person view, i argued for third person view.

I directly focused on third person view for a reason, because there are potentially even bigger problems with first person view that even you didn't recognize.

In regards to immersion, that's entirely subjective and is dependent on the person. For me Isometric view will never compare to the immersive qualities of third person.

I knew this was subjective as well hence the reason why i did not make immersion the for front of my argument. But instead focused on the mechanical advantages, and it turned out that the advantages were far bigger than i could have initially imagined.

"1st person perspectives aren't all that realistic, for a few arguable reasons, and neither is virtual reality just yet."

Even though this has nothing to really due with the debate here, i simply have to call you out on this.

I own a HTC Vive, Virtual Reality reaches states of immersion far beyond any 2 dimensional monitor can even hope to achieve. You clearly have not used a consumer VR headset.

My mistake, I must have misread or read over a few of your messages.

True I've never used a VR headset, I shouldn't have commented on that.

I still hold, however, that a 3rd-person view won't give you the necessary awareness that will probably be required in this game (also, there's no ceiling in the dungeons, but that's likely not a massive problem). I think that, combat aside, everything that applies to 1st person view applies in a similar if not same degree to 3rd person view. Like what I said back there about the video where some displacement(?) thaumaturgy was being shown off -- the teleporting from roof to roof and such.

This is just one example, and I admit I can't think of any more irrefutable ones right now, but I think that the full implementation of thamaturgy will present some more.

As for personal preference of viewpoints, you've swayed me a bit. I thought you were talking about 1st person view, which I'm not usually a massive fan of either way, but between third person and isometric I don't have much of an innate preference. Depends on the game. I still think I'd prefer the iso point of view for exanima, but I guess a large part of that would be because I'm used to it now. But as I said, a 3rd person view might just make some important points of the game undoable (<- that's the weirdest looking word, isn't it?).

Though I'd love at least some kind of option to go 3rd person or free-orbit camera outdoors maybe, just so I can LOOK AT THE BEAUTIFUL SKY!