Bare Mettle: what's useful to discuss?

[lvk]

Sui Generis appears to be worked on in a systematic manner, where large chunks of the game's framework are being finished before the minor details and the polish (with the exception of the next update Kieran mentioned). In terms of development, especially with the large, new and most importantly largely as-of-yet unexplored challenges faced, this is the best approach to take.

Doing this would mean a lot of the game's direction should be planned already, though. The forum threads in the Gameplay and Game World subforums bring a lot of interesting discussion to the table, but due to the nature of Sui Generis, where you (Bare Mettle) can't reveal too much about the game without affecting the game negatively, it's hard to tell what subjects are already planned and which are barely touched.

Another result of the planning is that the development team is probably already tightly packed with stuff to work on. Combined with little information, although justified (and I too like that the game holds many secrets yet - some kickstarted projects make the mistake of revealing too many details at the great cost of reducing surprise and enjoyment significantly), I'm assuming this is the reason the forums haven't seen much activity or discussion lately, even though the game's potential is so vast, and the amount of topics to discuss near limitless.

While I'm content with the secrecy of development as it stands, due to excitement I would be glad to talk some more about the game. Kieran had also mentioned the following:

Thank you for your patience, you funded this project and you have every right to be kept in the loop, we've been overwhelmed by development work but we do honestly want to make an effort to communicate more with you
Best,
Bare Mettle

Assuming Kieran speaks for Bare Mettle as a whole, I thought it might be a good idea to attempt to bridge the gap as soon as possible, even if it's ever so slightly, and get some healthy discussion going again.

We now come to the main point of this thread:
Bare Mettle, what would be useful for us to discuss?

Discussing points at random right now feels unfulfilling because as a community, we're not sure if it's helping anyone. As revealing too many game details isn't the right way to go, it would be great if someone on the team could steer discussion to areas that haven't seen much consideration yet on the development team's side. This way, you could lessen the cleft between the community and the developers, which appears to be the intent.

The Mighty No. 9 kickstarter by Comcept does a fairly good job at communicating, even though it does reveal a lot of the game's details. I believe a good reason for the sense of community during the game's crowdfunding stage is the focused updates; during one of the more recent stages, there's been an effort to let fans vote on the final design for the main character's sidekick. With that, Comcept has given its fans something focused and specific to talk about, while also helping their game design process along. I realize development on Sui Generis is very, very different - I only want to draw upon this specific example of communication between a company and its users.

In the end, we (or at least, I) would just like to know what's useful for us, and maybe even for you, to talk about. It would be great if we were able to help in one way or another, and achieve a true sense of contribution and/or unity. After reading a lot of threads by a lot of users, I truly believe the combined community's insight can contribute meaningfully; all we need is a direction.

Whether you're a Bare Mettle employee, a contributor or a guest, thank you for taking the time out of your day and schedule to read this far. I appreciate it a lot.

 

[BrecMadak]

Why this gets ignored ? However it should be least topic to be overlooked imo.

PS. Is there something goes wrong ? Can not see rich text editor..

 

[fluffydino2000]

I have to agree here. This thread does seem noteworthy and useful to everyone. Recently a few of us have just been making general threads about very wide topics to promote discussion, but the discussion of actual mechanics or anything else useful is still pretty slow.

 

[Scarecrow]

I guess when things will be truly useful for us to discuss is when Alpha and Beta comes out. Until we actually get our hands on the game, and try out the different stuff, it will be kinda hard for us to contribute meaningfully. I mean sure, they might need input on different mechanics and stuff so that they make it the best way possible, but our input on matters we only read about and not actually try... Well, it kinda seem meaningless.

As far as feedback from us goes it has been very little, but that is understandable at this stage of development, right? When we get to try it, we will start making feedback threads: I think this is good because... Or i think this could be changed... Or i think this should be removed... etc. While the devs themselves might start making threads, asking for our feedback on certain things that they are uncertain about.

I too want to discuss things that can prove meaningful to the game and the devs, but as of right now i guess we have to just be content with where we're at. All in due time.

 

[lvk]

As far as feedback from us goes it has been very little, but that is understandable at this stage of development, right? When we get to try it, we will start making feedback threads: I think this is good because... Or i think this could be changed... Or i think this should be removed... etc. While the devs themselves might start making threads, asking for our feedback on certain things that they are uncertain about.

You've made fair points, and I do agree with all of them. However, I do want to clear up the general intent of why this thread was made.

Bare Mettle is very good at managing their own development work. This is both a blessing and a curse, in that it's hard for users to do much at this point in time. They have made it apparent on some occasions, however, that they do want to communicate with the userbase. For instance, the early Kickstarter update (#3, Your Character):

If you have more specific questions please visit our forums so that together we can build a body of information that everyone can benefit from.

Even without an alpha and beta, given how vast the game is, there is plenty of stuff we can talk about as a community, whether it ends up being useful or not. The primary issue when it comes to community interaction, even without helping the developers (as I see it) is that we just don't know what is and isn't planned, and as such, whether starting a thread for discussion rather than asking the devs outright may end up being pointless.

If Bare Mettle continues work as they are doing, the development work will have their undivided attention, and from what I hear, this is working out just fine so far. The downside is that the community would have less to go on until then, and the insider forums may not see the purpose some backers may have expected.

There has actually been something great recently though; Madoc's posting of a screenshot of one of their in-house tools for adding and modifying weapons in the game. Without negatively impacting the game, it gives us more information and insight into how weapons actually work; from this information, we now have room to talk more about weapon properties without being completely blind to their underlying functions.

These kind of updates are exactly what I was hoping for; some demonstration of how great their own tools were was half of what comprised the Kickstarter video, and half of what caused us (at that point) to decide to believe in and back their project. I hope these kind of short looks-behind-the-scenes might end up becoming somewhat more frequent - I don't think they take a lot of time out of Bare Mettle's busy schedule, and user feedback has been positive.

I wouldn't want the developers to lose a lot of time on forum threads, but I think if any of their team pressed Print Screen at any given time of the day and pasted it on the forums, users would go nuts (in a positive way).

I've also noticed that when new material does hit the forums, we are reaffirmed that it's a work in progress, but I think backers are prepared for that. The game has come a way since the Kickstarter update, and just pre-alpha combat featuring pre-alpha animations were enough to get us interested - I believe even minor things will reaffirm your backers' faith, rather than shake it.

Finally, while most of this post is about what I think would be great, it's understandable if you'd rather not reveal extra information. If that's the case, however, as either backers or potentially interested users - please let us know as well.

 

[Madoc]

I've been wanting to reply to Ivk's post but I'm not really sure what to suggest. Our development process is indeed quite unique, practically everything we do is vast and open ended and requires a lot of testing and iterations. We're never sure exactly how much we can do or what we'll end up with so we're also concerned about managing people's expectations. There are a lot of good suggestions and feature requests on this forum, really a lot. The scope of the game is potentially very vast and this is one of the hardest things for us to manage as a small team where every one of us needs to be constantly producing something. We're also taking new approaches to almost everything and our quality standards are rather high. Most games are developed with an existing engine and well defined goals that are known to be attainable, they can start producing content without looking back too often. This is never really the case for us, our plan is do something really awesome and figure out exactly how along the way, it's very difficult for us to be specific until we've done something. If no one has ever done it before chances are it's not going to turn out how you imagined and it's going to take some iterating. This even considering our expertise and intimate knowledge of the technology we're using.

I guess what I'm saying is that we're weary of making promises and inevitably a lot of discussions are going to be along the lines of "is this feature going to be added?" "How is it going to be super epic?". They will, because we're either going to just have to say no or indeed promise to make it epic because we wouldn't have it any other way. Right now we're not very keen saying either one.

Probably the best way for you to interact with us more meaningfully is to start thinking about the development process more like we do. We've said before that we're going to take it in steps. We first need to make the core game and get it out there, we can then continue to expand and improve it and add features.

Once we release the public video our priority will be an alpha version. This will be a cut down version of the game with limited content that will hopefully anyway capture the heart and soul of the game and feature various aspects of gameplay, not all but not just combat either. Playing the actual game, even if not the complete game, should make it much less abstract and allow people to start thinking more clearly about what it is and where it should go.

 

[fluffydino2000]

Once we release the public video our priority will be an alpha version.

My day just made with 58 minutes of it left

 

[lvk]

@Madoc
Thanks for the reply. Knowing that the alpha's up sooner than probably most imagined is enough for me, and hopefully others as well. It's indeed a unique project with a unique course of development, and I can't wait for the next update(s).

It is reassuring to hear you're all still passionate about delivering high quality, too. It means it'll be really hard for Sui Generis to disappoint as the development team upholds the highest standards to the game they not only want to make, but want to play just as much as we do.

On behalf of myself and all like-minded people, thanks again! I've no further concerns.

@fluffydino2000 I know, I was just about to head to sleep and that last refresh made the end of the day so much better.

 

[Fawz]

A great post with lots of good information

Thanks for being so forward with us!
From everything we've been shown and told, SG is indeed being developed in a very unique manner which is only fitting seeing how unique and innovative the game aspires to be. There are thousands of people supporting you guys, so keep it up!

I'm really glad to hear the building of an Alpha build/prototype will soon be a focus to deliver a bite-sized experience of what the game is shaping up to be.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for being so forward with us!
From everything we've been shown and told, SG is indeed being developed in a very unique manner which is only fitting seeing how unique and innovative the game aspires to be. There are thousands of people supporting you guys, so keep it up!

I'm really glad to hear the building of an Alpha build/prototype will soon be a focus to deliver a bite-sized experience of what the game is shaping up to be.

My name is Tom, and I endorse this message

So Video, then Alpha? Hm, I don't know... sounds too awesome to be true.

 

[speculum]

Ivk, I get what you're saying about the lack of content to discuss being a bit frustrating, but just because there's nothing new to talk about doesn't mean that the members of the community have stopped paying attention. There are tons of lurkers like me who'll probably start crawling out of the woodwork when an update hits, but are fine just checking the forums once in awhile when nothing is going on. IMO It's better to wait for something substantive to discuss than to speculate for a couple of weeks about what the next update is going to be about. Not to say that developer posts are strictly necessary to create great threads (those weapon threads from the HEMA fighters, holy crap), but waiting to talk when you have nothing to say that isn't being said by someone else already isn't a bad thing. Quantity vs. Quality.

 

[lvk]

Ivk,

It's a lowercase L! I think in the years I've been using this or similar usernames, two people got it right, so it's probably my fault.

I get what you're saying about the lack of content to discuss being a bit frustrating, but just because there's nothing new to talk about doesn't mean that the members of the community have stopped paying attention. [...] Not to say that developer posts are strictly necessary to create great threads (those weapon threads from the HEMA fighters, holy crap), but waiting to talk when you have nothing to say that isn't being said by someone else already isn't a bad thing. Quantity vs. Quality.

When I made the thread, I mostly felt like we should really be discussing something just because we had subforums for Gameplay, Game World and General Discussion. As we've had little to go on as of late, this thread was made for the purpose of requesting a direction of discussion, rather than official updates. That, and I wondered if we could provide any useful input to the developers as of now.

We've had an official reply, though, so this thread has served its purpose. It's clear our best option is to wait until the next update/alpha, and I'll gladly wait for either. I trust the community feedback will help a lot at that stage too, as so many great things have already been suggested and talked about even without final information to go on.

Until then!

 

[fluffydino2000]

I thought it was el-vee-kay but I saw someone type Ivk and just assumed I was wrong

 

[Tom]

We've had an official reply, though, so this thread has served its purpose. It's clear our best option is to wait until the next update/alpha, and I'll gladly wait for either. I trust the community feedback will help a lot at that stage too, as so many great things have already been suggested and talked about even without final information to go on.Until then!

I'm actually more nervous than excited about the Alpha; I've never done any testing like that (not even Beta!), so I'll have to play it from the perspective of a tester rather than a player, and carefully look at the game.

And then come to the forums and brag about it relay my thoughts.

 

[lvk]

I'm actually more nervous than excited about the Alpha; I've never done any testing like that (not even Beta!), so I'll have to play it from the perspective of a tester rather than a player, and carefully look at the game.

And then come to the forums and brag about it relay my thoughts.

You don't actually have to test the game, alpha access in this case just means you get to play an early version of the game. You're free to just play it for what it is without reporting back.

If you want to combine testing and fun, try to break the game whenever you feel like it. If you've ever tried pushing objects through a wall in Skyrim, getting NPCs stuck in Skyrim, breaking NPC conversations in Skyrim or anything remotely stealth-related in Skyrim, it's kind of like that, except this time you get to tell the developers and they will care as much as you would about getting it fixed if possible.

 

[Scarecrow]

Yeah Tom, just play the game like you normally would. Whenever you come across a bug, or something weird, or an idea etc. then you can write your thoughts down on a notepad or something, and just share your thoughts on the forum. Other than that, you should try to enjoy it as usual. While just playing an early build normally we will come across numerous things to discuss and report in.

 

[Tom]

I guess I'm overthinking it, so I'll try to do as you guys say, thanks

 

[Sandalwood]

Our development process is indeed quite unique, practically everything we do is vast and open ended and requires a lot of testing and iterations. We're never sure exactly how much we can do or what we'll end up with so we're also concerned about managing people's expectations.

I can totally understand this, and I'm actually really thankful to you for having this attitude. there is some other game designer - who has lost all of my remaining respect recently - who seems to think that the opposite is the way to go (*cough* molyneux *cough*)

Once we release the public video our priority will be an alpha version.

weeeeeh!!! i'm so looking forward to this! (not only the alpha but also the video, i'm kinda starved for sui generis videos ^^)